Red Eagles declassified

[Steve Davies]

One of the more interesting AF press releases, and this one's long overdue!

WASHINGTON - After decades of secrecy, the Air Force today acknowledged that it flew Communist-built fighters at the Tonopah Test Range northwest of Las Vegas, Nevada.

From 1977 through 1988, the program, known as CONSTANT PEG, saw U.S. Air Force, Navy, and Marine aircrews flying against Soviet-designed MiG fighters as part of a training program where American pilots could better learn how to defeat or evade the Communist bloc's fighters of the day.

Brigadier General Hawk Carlisle, 3rd Wing commander at Elmendorf AFB, Alaska, is a former member of the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron who remembers the valuable training the unit provided.

"CONSTANT PEG afforded pilots an opportunity to learn how to fight enemy aircraft in a controlled, safe environment, without having to endure the risks of actual air combat," said Brig. Gen. Carlisle. "Typically a pilot would start with a basic familiarization flight to observe the enemy airplane and study its characteristics, practicing "one-on-one" defensive and offensive maneuvers against it, and finally, experience multi-bogey engagements high over the desert scrubland of the Nellis Air Force Base ranges.

As a result of marginal performance of American fighter forces in the skies over North Vietnam, CONSTANT PEG complemented other revolutionary training programs such as Red Flag, Top Gun and the Air Force and Navy-Marine aggressor squadrons. The program was also intended to eliminate the "buck fever" or nervous excitement many pilots experience on their first few combat missions. Historical experience indicated that pilots who survived their first ten missions were much more likely to survive a complete combat tour, and CONTSTANT PEG was intended to teach them the right "moves" to enable them to come out on top of any engagement.

The end of the CONSTANT PEG nearly coincided with the end of the Cold War, by which time some of its "graduates" had already proven themselves in actual air combat.

Threat aircraft flown by the Red Eagles spanned several decades and technical generations of capability. There was the MiG-17 Fresco, a small, agile single-seat transonic fighter placed in service just after the Korean War and used extensively over Vietnam and the Middle East; the MiG-21 Fishbed, a high supersonic fighter used world-wide in large numbers, and the swing-wing MiG-23 Flogger, likewise in global service, an attempt by the Soviets to match the sophisticated capabilities of the F-4 Phantom.

"Although it came too late to influence Vietnam, CONSTANT PEG training greatly influenced the success of American Airmen in DESERT STORM, who shot down 40 Iraqi fighters, many of which were Fishbeds and Floggers," said Brig Gen. Carlisle.

[Guest Hydro130]

Interesting stuff...

There are some pretty damn amazing stories of how we got our hands on some of that FSU equipment over the years...

If y'all ever have the opportunity to check out any of the "icks" (ask Intel), don't pass it up. Very, very cool and well worth it! Getting a rock-star tour of those places was definitely one the high points of WS...

Cheers, Hydro

Edited August 28, 2007 by Hydro

[Steve Davies]

It was a Yak-23 FLORA in 1953 that was 'loaned' by Yugoslavia whilst it was being shipped overland from the mother country to a baltic state. I have the declassified files here at home.

For the most part, Constant Peg's jets came from Egypt following Cairo's breakdown in relations with Moscow.

[bucky60k]

Didn't we also utilize a Mig-21 and a Mig-17 that both were flown to Israel in the 1960s? Since Israel also loaned a captured P12 radar system (which was captured by commandos and CH-53s) to the US its seems that we would have taken a lot of data from those two aircraft even before the Egyptians turned their back on the USSR after Nasser and Sadat.

[ 13. November 2006, 14:32: Message edited by: bucky60k ]

[Steve Davies]

There were 2 MiG-17s and a MiG-21F-13 loaned from Israel and returned in 1969. Once they had been sent back the US was left with nothing to fly.

Although the desire to stand-up a squadron like the Red Eagles had always existed, it wasn't until the Egyptian trade (MiGs for F-4s) that the 'assets' were available to do it with.

[aceart]

Steve, I don't think it was ever part of the program but the MiG-21 that's at Udvar right now used to be a part of the old "Soviet Awareness Group" at Bolling. It was really odd to see the thing over there as it looked very out of place and the last thing I expected to see.

Strange thing is that no one could really remember how they got the thing or where it came from, really! it had been gone over so often most of the things you would look for, placards etc. had been removed and either it's orgins are very hush hush or they just never kept very good records in the first place. Knowing the 'service' either could be true...

[Steve Davies]

Ace

I have a photograph of the Bolling MiG, under ceiling-suspended parachutes to protect from prying eyes, dated 1981. Interesting to know it's now at Udvar. Thanks.

[MD]

Maybe now the details behind the death of LtGen Robert Bond will formally be acknowleged. Rumor was his crash in the NTTR in April of 1984 was while flying a 4477th MiG-23. There's a small black granite memorial located in the middle of nowhere in the NTTR inscribed with:

BOBBY BOND

APRIL 26, 1984

HE WAS A MAN OF GREAT STRENGTH

A WARM AND FAITHFUL FRIEND,

WHO GAVE HIS LIFE FOR THE

COUNTRY HE LOVED

[ 17. November 2006, 23:54: Message edited by: MD ]

[Steve Davies]

MD

The AF and Navy will not be declassifying the fatal mishaps from the Red Eagles... however, I know that the AF lost only one pilot in the programme and I know who he was: it wasn't Gen Bond.

My suspicion is that Bond was actually flying with the Red Hats when he was killed. The Red Hats is still classified. So, I doubt that there will ever be an official explanation for the mishap beyond what has already been made public.

[Guest rapier01]

Air Force used Soviet MiGs to hone skills of U.S. pilots

Program was so secret pilots had to 'sign their lives away' to secrecy just to fly one of the planes, an official says.

By Timothy R. Gaffney

https://www.daytondailynews.com/search/cont...ressorside.html

Staff Writer

Friday, November 17, 2006

The Air Force kept up to 25 Soviet-designed MiG fighter jets on a secret airstrip near Tonopah, Nev., in the 1970s and '80s, former commanders of the squadron that flew the jets said Thursday.

The Air Force used the fighters to sharpen the kills of American fighter pilots in air combat exercises under the code name Constant Peg, they said in a press conference in the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force.

Up to 14 MiG-17s, MiG-21s or MiG-23s would thunder off the Tonopah Test Range runway to engage Air Force, Navy or Marine Corps pilots over the desert, they said.

"It was about as close to actual combat as any pilot could aspire to be in," said Mike Scott, a former Air Force officer who was assigned to the secret program twice in his career.

John T. Manclark, a senior Air Force civilian at the Pentagon and a retired colonel, said an intelligence center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base provided valuable training, analysis and other support to the squadron, which had to develop its own training manuals and have replacement parts specially made.

The National Air and Space Intelligence Center, then named the Foreign Technology Division, has acknowledged acquiring and analyzing Soviet-designed aircraft during the Cold War. Thursday's news conference gave a rare example of how that intelligence was used.

The program was so secret pilots had to "sign their lives away" to secrecy before they could fly in them or against them, Scott said.

But it influenced a generation of fighter pilots who tangled with the MiGs, including some who later became Air Force leaders.

"If you talk to any general officer in the Air Force, if he flew fighters he flew against MiGs. It was that big of a program," Scott said.

Former squadron commander Gail Peck said he initiated the program in the late 1970s when he was in the Pentagon and used his wife's name — Peg — as part of its code name.

Getting funding was tricky, and Peck said turning a small Department of Energy airstrip near Tonopah into a fighter base for MiGs hinged on an even more secret program — the F-117 Stealth Fighter.

"A lot of the justification (for the Tonopah Test Range) was built on the requirement for an operating location for the Stealth fighter," he said.

Maintenance crews had to build ground vehicles from scrap and "made magic happen" by keeping the MiGs airworthy, said Earl Henderson, another former commander.

The squadron stopped flying the MiG-17 in the early 1980s after Capt. Mark Postai of Pittsburg, Kan., had to crash-land on the desert when his engine failed, Peck said.

Postai died in 1983 while flying another Soviet-designed fighter, the swingwing MiG-23 Flogger, which the squadron commanders all said was unstable and dangerous to fly.

Several of Postai's family members attended the press conference. One sister, Paula Postai of Jonesboro, Tenn., said they suspected he was in the program, which has surfaced in rumors over the years.

Manclark said the Pentagon finally declassified the program after an annual security review judged the secrecy was no longer necessary.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Funny that the TTR airfield is even being discussed in any way...I thought it wasn't a suitable subject of any discussion, despite the press going there once the F-117 was declassified.

Cool to see the AF finally own up to at least some of this - some those MiGs have been circulating around the AF for some time, popping up at museums or being used as gate guards or static displays for airshows...kind of like the MiG-29s we bought from Moldova to cockblock the Iranian sale. One pops up every once in awhile. This all was also discussed in the "Dark Eagles" book.

One thing though...no tech data. Yeah that'd be fun. My crew chief roots don't like that idea, one bit...

[ 19. November 2006, 12:34: Message edited by: Chuck Farleston ]

[Steve Davies]

Chuck

It was 'the other' place that the Red Eagles operated out of that can't be mentioned. The Stink Bug ended up forcing them out of TTR.

As for the Red Hats, Jack Manclark (referenced in the article above) told me that they will never be declassified. The inference being that they continue to operate, and will always do so provided that there are still foreign bits of kit that need testing.

Good to see Mark Postai finally getting the recognition he deserves.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Chuck Farleston:

Is the stuff in the Nellis petting zoo discussable? I think I got the general public tour.

No.

[Steve Davies]

No.

After almost two years of hunting, I have finally been sent an array of images from the Constant Peg programme.

As far as I know, this is the first time that any 4477th TES images have been released into the public domain:

Checkout the following link and click the main picture: Constant Peg Images

[Guest SATCOM]

Chuck

It was 'the other' place that the Red Eagles operated out of that can't be mentioned. The Stink Bug ended up forcing them out of TTR.

As for the Red Hats, Jack Manclark (referenced in the article above) told me that they will never be declassified. The inference being that they continue to operate, and will always do so provided that there are still foreign bits of kit that need testing.

Good to see Mark Postai finally getting the recognition he deserves.

We use that "other" area frequently for training/exercises. Years ago (mid 90's) I was manning a drop zone out there in R-4806, waiting and bored. Decided to do a walkabout and saw a tailfin of something sticking out of the ground maybe a klick away from the DZ. I go investigate and the manufacture date on this thing was 1944.....I softly walked away. Lots of history out there.

[Guest alfakilo]

No matter all the briefings we had about how small those things were...the first time I saw it all I could think was "Damn...that thing is little"!!

Followed right after by "Damn...that thing can turn"!!

Edited August 25, 2007 by alfakilo

[Steve Davies]

We use that "other" area frequently for training/exercises. Years ago (mid 90's) I was manning a drop zone out there in R-4806, waiting and bored. Decided to do a walkabout and saw a tailfin of something sticking out of the ground maybe a klick away from the DZ. I go investigate and the manufacture date on this thing was 1944.....I softly walked away. Lots of history out there.

It is said that an awful lot is buried out there, and even that some of it may well be dug up and restored in the future. What was the 1944 tail fin from?

No matter all the briefings we had about how small those things were...the first time I saw it all I could think was "Damn...that thing is little"!!Followed right after by "Damn...that thing can turn"!!

Please excuse my inquisitiveness, but are you the Alfakilo of Zipper, Rhino and Hog fame?

EDIT: Just checked your profile and it seems you are indeed. Welcome to Baseops!

[HerkDerka]

Awesome pics Steve.

HD

[brabus]

Great pics...that would have been an awesome job to fly all those Migs.

[Guest alfakilo]

Please excuse my inquisitiveness, but are you the Alfakilo of Zipper, Rhino and Hog fame?

EDIT: Just checked your profile and it seems you are indeed. Welcome to Baseops!

Curses...foiled again!

Hi Steve...great pics!!

[Toasty]

That's bona fide bad-ass.

[Guest SATCOM]

What was the 1944 tail fin from?

EDIT: Just checked your profile and it seems you are indeed. Welcome to Baseops!

Unknown to this day. Someday I'd love to go back there for a Red/Green/Blue/Purple Flag and spend some time "exploring" the various ranges. Another year (93 or 94) we had to conduct a Reconn & Surveillance of a enemy airfield (near TTR). There were old FB-111's and RA-5's on the ramp of this place. Great to see old history on display, only later to be bombed after we LASED it.

[Guest Scribe]

Ace

I have a photograph of the Bolling MiG, under ceiling-suspended parachutes to protect from prying eyes, dated 1981. Interesting to know it's now at Udvar. Thanks.

I went to their school in 1979 and they had a SA-2 and various AAA arrayed around the MiG-21 in a Commissary warehouse so you couldn't accidently stumble on it. The Nellis Petting Zoo had far more, but it was pretty amazing to find the "little zoo" at Bolling totally out of sight.

[Guest Fisher]

No.

Pretty sure it is actually. I went there as a cadet and took pictures with "special" Russian planes, straddled missles, and sat in tanks. No one had qualms with me taking pics. Either that or they trust cadets.

[Guest Matt Damon]

Pretty sure it is actually. I went there as a cadet and took pictures with "special" Russian planes, straddled missles, and sat in tanks. No one had qualms with me taking pics. Either that or they trust cadets.

Yea, I was out at Nellis in March and they encouraged us to take pictures, and ask about the systems. I think you all would be surprised about how much information is Unclassified about red, and blue/gray weapon systems. I am new to the ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance) world and as a student here at Offutt I have a ton of material in my living room that was all Secret before the Clinton Administration, but is now just EWO study material.

But those pictures are really cool, and it would of been awesome to be part of that program during its day.