Postponing Postmission Crew Rest?

[Chicken]

I seem to remember that you could delay your postmission crewrest, but I forget where a reg like that might even be. Anyone heard of it?

I have been delayed again from getting outta here and now our leave is going to coincide with our postmission which is a waste of postmission. So I rather use my postmission after I come back from leave.

[Guest Bender]

Yeah...I don't wanna go to work on Monday...anyone know a reg for that?

Can I get a waiver?

BENDY

[Guest Hydro130]

I've been out a while, but I've never heard of such an animal. At least not under those circumstances. I've been in that situation a few times too, and I sucked up the "lost" PMCR. I was just happy to have that time off and always had some leave to burn, so it was never a big deal for me. This is one of those "Do I really want to ask the DO this question?" questions. Even if there's a potential small victory here, what's the real cost? If you don't know where I'm going with that, then go ahead and ask the question; you'll figure it out eventually.

Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you. FIDO. Enjoy your time off; you'll always get more leave.

Cheers, Hydro

[Chicken]

Yeah...I don't wanna go to work on Monday...anyone know a reg for that?

Can I get a waiver?

BENDY

Yea, I know it's rough going to places like Guam, Thailand, and Hawaii. I feel your pain. What cracks me up is you too get PMCR for "deploying" to guam, DG, etc. $hit.. I would have you come in on a couple weekends to make up for your good deal.

I always thought the reg was used for guys taking leave enroute while going home. Guys would stop in europe or wherever and stay there a couple weeks, and then start PMCR after the fact.

I just wanted to see if it existed, and I didn't dream it up before I went after about it.

Edited March 16, 2007 by Chicken

[Guest Hydro130]

Yea, I know it's rough going to places like Guam, Thailand, and Hawaii. I feel your pain. What cracks me up is you too get PMCR for "deploying" to guam, DG, etc.

That's total blather. I don't know if you're trying to sound hardcore or what, but you look stupid saying crap like that. Trips to those places are just PACAF regional TDYs. Of course you get PMCR for TDYs. That's nothing new or different. And Yokota deploys to The Desert just like everyone else. Sheesh, some trips are longer and/or to crappier places than others. That's a universal truth, regardless of where your home flagpole is planted.

Sure, I know folks who stayed in Europe for a while after Bosnia rotes, but that always came straight out of their leave - they lost their freebie PMCR if their leave went up to or past the PMCR window. Maybe the rules have changed, but I doubt it. Think about it; it doesn't make any sense whatsoever that you could conveniently slip your PMCR by taking indeterminate shits-n-giggles leave at the end of a deployment. Everybody would be doing it; it would be a complete mess from a (very critical and always high-vis) squadron regeneration / C-level status perspective.

Cheers, Hydro

[Guest Bender]

Well put Hydro...that was the point of my comment; I'm just too lazy to explain.

In my view, you're looking for your entitlement...in this case PMCR.

PMCR is in existence for a reason. You're not sharp if we send you right out again.

Some people actually give it away to go hack the mission again when it's needed...

That, as opposed to angling to get it after your leave...

Think about it, man...

Finally, if you want to talk to me about "good deals," you're barking up the wrong tree.

BENDY

[Herk Driver]

That's total blather. I don't know if you're trying to sound hardcore or what, but you look stupid saying crap like that. Trips to those places are just PACAF regional TDYs. Of course you get PMCR for TDYs. That's nothing new or different. And Yokota deploys to The Desert just like everyone else. Sheesh, some trips are longer and/or to crappier places than others. That's a universal truth, regardless of where your home flagpole is planted.

Sure, I know folks who stayed in Europe for a while after Bosnia rotes, but that always came straight out of their leave - they lost their freebie PMCR if their leave went up to or past the PMCR window. Maybe the rules have changed, but I doubt it. Think about it; it doesn't make any sense whatsoever that you could conveniently slip your PMCR by taking indeterminate shits-n-giggles leave at the end of a deployment. Everybody would be doing it; it would be a complete mess from a (very critical and always high-vis) squadron regeneration / C-level status perspective.

Cheers, Hydro

Now, I have to admit that I have seen this done. If you take leave enroute, like let's say stop in Europe, technically the TDY doesn't end until you return to homestation, so PMCR would start after your return. And no, everybody wouldn't do it, because the CC wouldn't allow it. It took Sq/CC approval the time I saw it happen. The CC obviously isn't going to let everyone do it. I've seen 2 dudes allowed to do this with a return of the entire squadron from the desert. But, it was only two dudes.

However, "2" on the you can't just return from a TDY and take leave and then slide your PMCR to the end of your leave. In this case, the two would run concurrently. However, you could take the PMCR and then take leave somewhere after PMCR ran out.

[Guest Hydro130]

Now, I have to admit that I have seen this done. If you take leave enroute, like let's say stop in Europe, technically the TDY doesn't end until you return to homestation, so PMCR would start after your return. And no, everybody wouldn't do it, because the CC wouldn't allow it. It took Sq/CC approval the time I saw it happen. The CC obviously isn't going to let everyone do it. I've seen 2 dudes allowed to do this with a return of the entire squadron from the desert. But, it was only two dudes.

Past precedent can be half the battle, so that's a start then. I still stand by my "Be careful what you ask for..." caution from my first post. However this all works, make sure you have a solid plan, well in advance, that you can sell your DO and CC on. They'd be going out on a limb to hook you up with such a thing, so give them all the confidence they need that it's a good & solid plan worth supporting, and that's not going to somehow end up biting them in the ass.

However, you could take the PMCR and then take leave somewhere after PMCR ran out.

That's what I always planned out when I wanted more time than the PMCR period. Best balance of insurance for time off, and ruffled the least amout of feathers up the chain. Unfortunately, it was often partially (sometimes entirely) gobbled up by redeployment delays. At least that just "cost" me the free PMCR in that case, and not any leave. When it did work as planned, it was golden.

Cheers, Hydro

Edited March 16, 2007 by Hydro130

[Guest Bender]

Please share the "plan."

What situation makes this approved?

If I needed to take leave I didn't have, for a good reason, I could see it...

WTF?

BENDY

[Herk Driver]

I think my last post got off-topic and I wanted to make sure I answered the topic at hand.

I am not a huge advocate of asking the question that was posed in the original post. In today's world of lots of deployments and ususally more leave than you know what to do with, I just can't see a need to ask the question.

Only wanted to point out that taking leave on the way home from a rote is possible and has been done in the past.

The sliding PMCR to the end of leave after you've returned from a TDY though is a non-starter. I'm not sure you can convince your best friend that is a good idea; much less convince the DO, who is interested in filling the line.

Either take the PMCR and then take leave or forget about it.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

What the hell?

How much time off do you get for PMCR? How long do you have to be gone before you get time off?

You damn cud chewers make more money AND you get more time off? Nice.

No wonder everyone wants to fly heavies.

As for the original question...it sounds like the answer from the experienced guys is you need to be careful you aren't trying too hard to have your cake and eat it too. There is plenty of time to spend energy trying to figure out how to get paid more and work less when you become an airline guy.

[DigDug]

Here's a slightly different angle:

I can't find the references right now (I guess you could dig a bit if you need the ammo) but I could have sworn reading that crew rest is considered official duty, therefore you couldn't (shouldn't) take leave concurrently with crew rest (of any type, pre/enroute/post). I ran into it one time as a Lt where I had planned to take 3 or 4 days of leave through the end of September so I wouldn't lose them. Well, the scheduler decided to throw me on an off-station mission that returned so that my PMCR overlapped with my leave. The CC was pissed (mostly at the scheduler) but told me to delay my first day of leave until the PMCR ran out - causing me to lose a day or two (which makes the CC look bad apparently). This was back in the pre-911 days, so the regs may have changed to accomodate the higher wartime ops tempo.

I could have sworn that the AFI 11-2MDS series regs had a statement that leave couldn't run in conjunction with crew rest, but can't locate it right now...

[Guest PilotKD]

What the hell?

How much time off do you get for PMCR? How long do you have to be gone before you get time off?

You damn cud chewers make more money AND you get more time off? Nice.

No wonder everyone wants to fly heavies.

As for the original question...it sounds like the answer from the experienced guys is you need to be careful you aren't trying too hard to have your cake and eat it too. There is plenty of time to spend energy trying to figure out how to get paid more and work less when you become an airline guy.

Well, according to the AMC Aircrew brochure, post mission crew rest can be waived by the OG/CC. So, technically you could be stripped of your PMCR if need be (but it doesn't happen often). PMCR is more of a luxury item. We were getting 7 days for 30-60 consecutive days TDY and 14 days for 90+ consecutive days TDY. I do know of a few circumstances where someone delayed their PMCR because their spouse was deployed also and they wanted to align their PMCR to be home together (how sweet ). Instead of going on PMCR, they just came into work. However, I believe this defeats the purpose and is pushing the boundaries. It was approved by the DO and SQ/CC though, so I guess if it was all good with them, who am I to judge. Obviously, if you feel well enough after a 60 day deployment to go back into work the very next day, jet lag and all, you really don't need PMCR. In these cases (and again, we had quite a few of them), as a SQ scheduler, I would make sure NOT to fly them during the time they were supposed to be on PMCR, but chose to come to work. I could just see the $hit pile hitting the fan if they were involved in an incident and they found out they weren't on the PMCR they were supposed to take after their deployment. PMCR is not leave. You're still present for duty and the OG can recall your ass back in if need be. I really wouldn't abuse the good deal we have. If it runs into your leave, screw it. You'll get more days off in your lifetime. There are not too many people in this world who get 30 days of paid leave per year (and Fed holidays off - when not TDY).

[Chicken]

How much time off do you get for PMCR? How long do you have to be gone before you get time off?

You damn cud chewers make more money AND you get more time off? Nice.

No wonder everyone wants to fly heavies.

Yes, $3.50 a day is certainly a lot of money. And we get the same amount of time off that anyone does. As far as I understand the rules apply to ACC.. at least I hope so considering I am in ACC.

My wife and I both deploy so the PMCR helps us to take care of all the shit that's been sitting for 120 days. Not like I just don't want to show up for work.. but the fact that I am on non local leave just doesn't let me get that shit done.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

As far as I understand the rules apply to ACC.. at least I hope so considering I am in ACC.

Oh really? That's nice. Never heard of it. My bad.

I didn't manage my time off very well and lost leave 17 of 21 years. I guess I probably wasn't listening very hard when someone mentioned PMCR and didn't notice I was the only person in the squadron after a deployment. I just liked coming into work.

I definitely pay attention to the paid time off rules in my current job. Lesson learned...finally.

[Guest BoneWSO]

We were getting 7 days for 30-60 consecutive days TDY and 14 days for 90+ consecutive days TDY.

Sounds like you're describing what we call "Comp Time" in our community. Basically it's free local area leave, the purpose of which is to get your personal business in order, re-unite with the family, update currencies with the wife/significant other, etc. I can't remember or locate the reg but I know it's out there and it may well be community specific. "Comp Time" starts when we in-process the day after returning and must be taken locally. If you want to go out of local area, leave must be taken and you essentially forfeit your "Comp Time".

[Scooter14]

Before this totally blows up...

We had it in the Air Combat Command RC-135 as well. IIRC, you got a day for every 7 you were gone. So, you'd get about 6 for a 45 day trip. We were LDHD, so it was kind of a revolving door. Gone 30-45, PMCR for a week, 2 weeks in the office, a week of mission planning/outprocessing, back on the road. Rinse, repeat.

Maybe we regurgitated our food, as it was so eloquently stated, but we weren't out looking for a fast buck. $3.50 a day about covered more than half of my trips in the RC.

I don't remember the reg governing PMCR, maybe it was 11-2RC-135, I don't know. Didn't care. I took the time I needed to get my shit in one sock (pay the bills, Peter Duncan day, mow the lawn, unfucked my body clock - pre Ambien days) and got back to work in a few days.

So, what you're telling me Rainman, is if a Hawg squadron gets home on a Wednesday afternoon from 120 days in Kerblekistan, EVERYONE has to show up for work Thurs morning if they are not on leave? I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest, I'm genuinely wondering if this is the case.

[Chicken]

Oh really? That's nice. Never heard of it. My bad.

I didn't manage my time off very well and lost leave 17 of 21 years. I guess I probably wasn't listening very hard when someone mentioned PMCR and didn't notice I was the only person in the squadron after a deployment. I just liked coming into work.

I definitely pay attention to the paid time off rules in my current job. Lesson learned...finally.

Way to take care of your family. Good on you tough guy.

[Chicken]

Yes kind of like comp time. If you have 7 days the first 4 days are basically get your personal life in order. The next 3 days are get everything else in order. Technically they can call you into the office to do ground duty, but I am pretty sure every squadron leaves people alone in their PMCR. Either way you cannot fly during your PMCR per the reg.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Way to take care of your family. Good on you tough guy.

Noted. That's why I retired. I regret missing so much of my family when they were little. I often carried leave over from the year before because I had been deployed too much the year before so they let me carry more than 60. I had 197 days of leave at one point, my wife framed that LES. I'm thinking you're coming at me because I served my country? Who are you now, Jane Fonda? I'm not Scoobs or some ROTC kid. I really did serve, just like you (I assume) in some real shitholes which I can guarantee were as bad as any place you've ever been. WTFO?

I guess I was a tough guy because I deployed when ordered instead of telling people that I couldn't deploy because I had use or lose leave to burn. I served when told and never tried to get out of a deployment, ever. Is that what you mean, I'm a tough guy who didn't care about his family and deployed a lot? I don't get it. I missed a lot of my kids growing up. I retired before I was ready to do so because I needed to take care of my family. Lots of sacrifice in my family, just like everyone else around here.

Did I hurt your feelers somewhere along the way? If so, I apologize. Seriously.

I do not want to have another pissing contest with some guy/girl/vet hater I've never met. Very weird.

Chicken, please note that I am not saying anything about your family as I consider that to be off limits. I also don't take much of a shine to people talking shit about my family, especially people who know nothing about what we have been through.

Please have this pissing contest by yourself.

[Chicken]

Noted. That's why I retired. I regret missing so much of my family when they were little. I often carried leave over from the year before because I had been deployed too much the year before so they let me carry more than 60. I had 197 days of leave at one point, my wife framed that LES. I'm thinking you're coming at me because I served my country? Who are you now, Jane Fonda?

Yes.. I'm Jane Fonda. I stopped reading the post right there. I figure if it's that moronic that soon, then why read the rest?

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Yes.. I'm Jane Fonda.

Fair enough, thanks for letting me know where you're coming from.

"Nuff said then.

[LJ Driver]

I am actually curious how fighter squadrons do this. We have pmcr also in AFSOC. I think (hope) everyone might, it's just called different things (pmcr, local leave, office leave, family time-off...whatever)

[Herk Driver]

Just to clarify...

Yes, Rainman, you were correct in your post about Heavies getting to fly to all the cool places, make more money and get extra time off. (or at least that's how it used to be).

PMCR is afforded all heavies when they return from a TDY. Many of the younger guys on here have apparently only ever gone to the desert or have been caught up in the waive the PMCR mentality since 9/11. Maybe not, but most of the focus has been on the post-deployment comp time or PMCR or whatever you want to call it.

Anyway, by AFI (I speak only for the -130 here as I'm no expert on other MDS AFI's), we would get 1 hour for every three hours spent on the road or a day (24 hours) for every 3 days gone (max of 4 days). This time essentially was for the same purpose as the 7 or 14 days you get when returning from the desert. They had to give you time to get your sh!t washed so you could pack for the next trip. Does that mean that guys aren't in the office doing work during PMCR? No. Plenty of times I find myself in doing work that has to get completed, etc.

There used to be times where you would return from one trip only to be thrown on another trip followed by yet another trip and without a mandated break in between I have literally not had clean clothes to pack for the next one. Of course, now my frau usually takes good care of me and makes sure that I am ready to go off on the next trip. That's the point of PMCR. When you go TDY and they can be spaced out by a day or two it makes it possible to take care of all the things that you could have been doing if you were just working in the local area.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

I remember the 1 for 3 thing but I don't remember if that was from MAC or TAC/ACC/USAFE/PACAF.

I'm thinking there are probably PMCR rules for fighter guys, it just isn't discussed. Most of the time there are guys asking "so how soon are we going to start local flying when we get back?" on the radio as soon as the gear is in the well on the redeployment.

Fighter squadrons give their guys time off after deployments. They also try to get spun up flying again locally as soon as possible because there are always a couple guys who either didn't go on the deployment or PCS'd in while the squadron was deployed. Regardless of the rules, there are always guys who want to fly. It's the mx guys you need to be sure get the time off they need.

Do entire heavy squadrons deploy or is it normally a group of guys (like 30%)? I can see PMCR as a very important when you've got split operations with some people/aircraft deployed AND ongoing local flying operations.

FWIW, I think it is a good thing to give people a break whenever you can. It is probably good leadership to force people to take those breaks.