Not going to UPT...will I get kicked out?

[Guest csuseanb]

I recently finished IFS in Pueblo and have been seriously contemplating not going to UPT. I am due to start at Laughlin in July but dont know if I should go. I had a good time flying but I just dont think military flying is for me. However, I do want to be in the Air Force, just not as a pilot. I have not talked about this with my commander but I just wanted to see if anyone out there would have any insights on if I would simply be forceshaped or be able to work in another AFSC. Any advice/help would be great. Cheers.

[FireMission]

I don't think you a force shaping eligible if you are part of the 2006 year group. You may be okay. Search AFPC site extensively.

Then again, if you don't think military flying is for you - go to your commander now and let him know. Aviation is too serious a business to go about half heartedly. Save yourself ass-pain now and get redesignated if possible rather than SIE out of Phase 1 or 2.

[FallingOsh]

I can't tell you exactly what AFPC will say, but i'm sure the AF would appreciate you not wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars at UPT before deciding to drop out. We just lost a guy in our flight and he's been given his choice of new AFSC's, within reason obviously.

If your heart isn't in flying, you'll be miserable at UPT even if you do stick with it. I can't imagine working and studying this hard for something I don't want to do. Just my 2 cents.

[Login Name]

good thing you made this choice after taking a slot away from somebody in college who would kill for it but wasn't picked up.

edited my wording...

Edited April 11, 2007 by Login Name

[brabus]

good thing you made this choice after taking a slot away from somebody in college who would kill for it but wasn't picked up.

Totally agree, but unfortunately that time has passed.

CSU...talk to your CC and get out of UPT NOW! If you're not sure now, I GUARANTEE you will not make it through UPT. This is not meant to be an insult to you as a person or your capabilities...UPT is practically impossible to make it through if you don't want to be there/want it enough to put in the required effort. Sure some people can "skate by" with doing less work than they should, but tackling something like this w/o your heart 110% on fire for it is 99.9% of the time going to lead to SIE. I think you probably have a better chance of avoiding forceshaping being honest now rather than SIEing out of UPT and then hoping for the best. Save yourself and others the immense asspain and a shitty time of starting UPT and not finishing. Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong w/ your feelings about flying or your decision to opt out of UPT...nothing says you can't go be a great officer in another career field. But, I personally think it's going to look better on you now rather than later. Good luck.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Login/Brabus....

Cut the dude some slack...I applaud him for pushing this desicion - rather than in UPT. Besides, he didn't take a slot from anyone. If those folks deserved to be in UPT, they would be there. He had to c-o-m-p-e-t-e just like everyone else. Geez...

Csuseanb,

It's ultimately your decision and any good CC should back you up. Keep pressing the issue onto him if that's the route you choose. Understand, though, this is a one shot opportunity - and flying isn't something we (AF) take for granted. Not every military pilot went into IFS aviation for the "love of flying". Others found this desire once in UPT. There were folks in my T-37 phase who seriously contemplated quitting - but eventually pushed thru and graduated. Having Wings will open more doors for you than any other AF career.

I also look at this vantage point - Ask yourself what you did/didn't enjoy about flying and is it something you (or others) can learn from. Did you become airsick? Not grab the passion/desire, etc? Was it the mentality aspect? As Brabus stated, UPT isn't something you can (or should) take lightly. You do, you bleed. Period. If you are hovering around 50/50, I'd recommend staying on course for Laughlin - putting all your effort into Phase I & II. Statistically, you can prove that most folks have usually SIE within the first month of hitting the flightline (around initial solo). Why did you apply for a pilot slot? Was it the idea of "being" a pilot? Was it the idea of being a spear tipper, etc?

Regardless of what you did in the past, look yourself in the mirror and find the root problem. only then will you be able to answer your original question. Like I said before, I applaud you steppin' up now and discussing it, rather than in UPT where your SIE will be full of disgruntled excuses.

Good luck w/ your decision...

Edited April 11, 2007 by C-21 Pilot

[Guest sleepy]

good thing you made this choice after taking a slot away from somebody in college who would kill for it but wasn't picked up.

edited my wording...

I'm going to be the asshole again...

This is quite possibly one of the dumbest statements. I don't claim to know how UPT slots are dished out to the ROTC guys, but I do know this, in no logical order:

1) if someone wanted a slot, they should try hard. If they didn't get it, they should try harder. There are a number of folks on this board who have gotten picked up on AD boards.

2) most folks in UPT who are AD have only logged flight time prior to UPT through IFT/IFS. This is not a lot of time, but it is probably enough to know whether or not one likes to fly. It is a screening process that costs much less than Phase II of UPT.

3) just because someone can fly a buck and change Cessna/hershey bar wing Piper/beer cooler composition Diamond does not mean that they enjoy it. The mechanics of flying are monkey skills. There is much more involved in both doing it safely AND having a passion to do it.

4) slots are given out to folks who are ambivalent and/or ignorant as to what it's like to fly an airplane all the time. Don't fault the guy for saying he doesn't like it. Commend him for realizing this and nipping it in the bud BEFORE all the ass pains of DORing/SIEing in UPT would rear their heads.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

4) slots are given out to folks who are ambivalent and/or ignorant as to what it's like to fly an airplane all the time. Don't fault the guy for saying he doesn't like it. Commend him for realizing this and nipping it in the bud BEFORE all the ass pains of DORing/SIEing in UPT would rear their heads.

Fully concur...

[Guest Cam]

I recently finished IFS in Pueblo and have been seriously contemplating not going to UPT. I am due to start at Laughlin in July but dont know if I should go. I had a good time flying but I just dont think military flying is for me. However, I do want to be in the Air Force, just not as a pilot. I have not talked about this with my commander but I just wanted to see if anyone out there would have any insights on if I would simply be forceshaped or be able to work in another AFSC. Any advice/help would be great. Cheers.

I have been told by some guys that I work with who recently got back from UPT instructing assignments that the kids who wash out of UPT have been getting force shaped. I don't know if the same policy/philosophy applies to people who quit before starting training. Keep asking around and try making some phone calls to AFPC. Good luck...

[Login Name]

valid points c-21/sleepy but there are still dudes out there with good scores/grades, active in rotc crap and everything else that still aren't/weren't picked up...not me personally, i wasn't medically qualified at the time....throwing this out there before people start pointing fingers at me b/c i'm mx and trying to get picked up now on AD. i know a lot of dudes that fell into that category. just b/c you tick all the boxes, doesn't mean you're necessarily going to get picked up in rotc.

csuseanb...my bad for the thread hijack...

to answer your original question about forceshaping...all the dudes i know that sie'd were all forceshaped when their year group was on the cutting block.

[Beaver]

Don't be a bitch. Go to UPT and stick it out. You'll be amazed at what you can accomplish. I don't know about Tony Robbins shit like "heart on fire 110%" but put forth your best effort and you'll probably make it.

[Guest Seahound]

Just finished Phase 2 here at Vance (07-15), lost one AD in my class, know of a couple others. None were force shaped, most people are getting one of their top 2-3 choices. None of these were SIEs though, so I don't know if that changes anything. Only SIE I know is Navy so no help there.

[slacker]

One thing I will guarantee is that you will regret "quitting" for the rest of your life. Do not think that what you saw in IFS or UPT is what Military flying is about- it's not! If you can- stick it out- do your best. I bet you'll find that the tiny snapshot of military flying in your head now is nothing what it is like. What is the worst that can happen? You'll make it through UPT and get to your first assignment and still hate it? There are still many opportunities for guys with wings who don't fly. Don't blindly close the door on one of the best opportunities of your life because some preconceived notion that you think you know. You will certainly regret quitting- if you go and try your best and fail- no regrets. If you go and try and succeed and hate it- well, you can certainly find other non-flying assignments and still wear the wings. Good luck!

[brabus]

My point of view comes from a class who had 2 dudes SIE 2 weeks into Phase II. UPT sucks much more than anyone can realize until they actually get there. So, from my personal experience, if you don't want it, you'll probably end up SIEing. The shittiness of it all just isn't going to be worth it if you didn't really want it that bad in the first place...that's what the 2 guys said who SIE'd. From what you said, sounds like you fall into that category. Personally, I don't think "Don't be a bitch" applies in this case. B/c if you go that route, you'll suck it up for a bit, and then say fvck it, b/c you didn't like flying in the first place....UPT is not the place to go if you already don't like flying.

[Techsan]

Don't be a bitch. Go to UPT and stick it out. You'll be amazed at what you can accomplish. I don't know about Tony Robbins shit like "heart on fire 110%" but put forth your best effort and you'll probably make it.

I don't think he's necessarily saying that he doesn't think he can make it through the program. Some folks just realize its not really what they wanted...it happens. I can totally respect a dude for making that tough decision early on...before going to UPT and wasting the taxpayer $.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the guy is being a bitch.

As been said several times already, you want to make sure 100% that your decision won't get you forced shaped right out of the AF...and if you either went to USAFA or had a ROTC scholarship, you may have to pay those back. It happens.

[HuggyU2]

Your military commander at IFS is a great guy. I've known him for years. Go talk to him and tell him you've got concerns.

[busdriver]

With all of the above being said, why dont' you think being a pilot is for you?

[Guest AKANGselectee]

A random stat - Vance 08-01 had a DOR/SIE in week 2 on the flightline. Stud was USAFA grad and got first choice as a contracting officer. Another USAFA guy was med DQ'd around the same time from the same class and is also going to retrain. Don't know if USAFA matters - just thought I'd add it for consideration.

[Beaver]

My point of view is from a guy who hated every single minute of UPT and wanted to quit T-37s but didn't. I wasn't a bitch, I stuck it out, and it I'm glad I did. Dudes in my class were pissed that I got a T-38 and they didn't because their ass was on fire 110% (something like that) and mine wasn't. But I kept at it and did well enough to actually get to the cool part of military aviation.

You'll never regret going to UPT.

[Guest jdizzle]

Why is it always a bad thing when someone has the self-awareness to realize flying isn't for them?? There have been other threads/posts on this forum about this and a lot of times it's the same crap about "don't be a bitch" and "you took someone else's spot".

Granted, those guys were already in UPT and quit like halfway through. But here we have a guy who has the SA to realize before UPT that in his gut and his heart that it's not what he's meant to do on earth. Give the man some credit for having the cohones to raise his hand and say, "I still want to serve, just not as a pilot". Everyone knows military aviation isn't for everyone.

As for taking someone else's spot, shut up. It didn't "belong" to anyone else. I got picked up for an AD spot through ROTC, and regardless of whether I finish the program or not, I didn't take my best friend's spot who only got selected for Strike Nav. Some people qualify, some people don't. I don't care how good your scores are; if you didn't get selected in your year group then they weren't good enough. End of story. And to then think that everyone who got selected is going to breeze through the program to their silver wings is ignorant. Some people will find it's not for them, that's just life...and you can't expect everyone to go get themselves 300 hrs private time before UPT to get a better idea about it.

CSU - you stand an excellent chance of getting re-assigned if you turn down your UPT slot. Much better than if you quit part way through. Don't jump to a conclusion in the next .69 seconds. Take little bit of time, make sure you know what you want in your guts, and then do it. No questions asked.

-Diz

[Guest Bender]

What's your degree in? If it's Psychology...you might have problems. If it's engineering, they may still have a "recall" on a few career fields and would (haha) "cross train" you almost automatically. It depends.

As far as my ass not being on fire 110% or my teeth not being big and white enough, meh. I liked my job before I went UPT, I was sad to leave. Sometimes flying is a pain in the ass, sometimes I'd rather stay home.

I don't though, just like I wouldn't if I was doing something else. The real question is what would you rather be doing? I don't come up with anything that holds a candle to the "job" I have now. I wouldn't go back to my previous job of my own volition.

If you have something you'd rather do, I would suggest beginning that pursuit now. If you don't have something that has your ass on fire 110% (I still don't know what that means, but I do feel like whitening my teeth a little) then I suggest you accept the awesome opportunity you have been presented with and see where it takes you.

Don't make your life so complicated...it's not really that complicated.

BENDY

Edit: Because I said so.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Bender

[Guest illini52]

To those who have offered constructive comments, thanks. You are helping many more people than just the original poster.

[Guest csuseanb]

Thanks everyone for the excellent advice. To be perfectly honest I cant pinpoint one reason why I don't want to be a military pilot. I feel like you have to be extremely passionate about what you do when you have a job where you can possibly be gone 200+ days a year...and I don't know if I am ready for that. I completely understand that I don't want to give up what could be the best opportunity of my life so this is definitely something I need to seriously think about. My degree was in Business Administration so I figure I would get re-assigned in finance or contracting. I DO want to serve in the Air Force and do my part for my country. If I talk with AFPC could they give me a fairly confident answer on what would happen to me?? Once again, thanks for the great advice. I definitely just need to realize that life is not that complicated...I think I just need to follow my gut.

[Guest Big Slick]

A little bit about myself.....I've done 2 tours as a line IP in AETC.

I have personally talked about 10 students into quitting UPT. The conversation went something like this, "Sir, I don't like flying and I don't think this is what I want to do with my life." I would answer, "You should quit." Very simple.

Graduating from UPT is a double edged sword. On the one hand, you get the pride of being an AF pilot and you get to fly awesome equipment. On the other hand, you just gave away ten years of your life. If you don't like flying, it is going to be an extremely long ten years. Life is too short, go do something you like to do.

Let's say you are deployed to the sand box/rock pile. Now, let's say you just returned from a 14 hour crew day and your base has a "real world" bomb alert. So, you grab your chem gear and you sit in a bunker for two hours. Afterwards, you go to the chow hall and some sergeant chews you out for not wearing your reflective belt.

If you love flying, you can say to yourself, "There sure is a lot of BS in the AF, but I logged 8 flight hours today and I'll upgrade to AC/IP in six more months at this pace. This morning, it was cool doing a tactical approach into Baghdad. Plus, seeing that sunken oil tanker off the coast of Kuwait was kinda cool. Man, this place sucks, but the flying is great." If you don't actually like flying, you will go insane.

You should quit now before you go to UPT. Each UPT class has the same number of students. If you go and quit, you will take that slot away from someone who wanted to go. If you quit now, someone else will get to use that slot.

You should consider not only how it affects you, but how it affects others. Don't screw your buddy over. Also, don't screw over the U.S. taxpayer.

By the way, csuseanb, in your last post you used the word "I" 15 times.

My 2 cents.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Big Slick

[Guest Big Slick]

Oh yeah, one more thing.

About 5 years ago, I was an IP at a UPT base. The Professor of Aerospace studies at Texas A&M was an "old school" F-4 pilot. At A&M, everyone was expected to become a fighter pilot, like their PAS. If you didn't want to go to UPT, you had to explain it to him. Because a lot of A&M cadets didn't want to confront their PAS, they came to UPT with the idea of "trying it out and if I don't like it I will quit."

Well, guess what? We had 2 A&M grads quit within about 6 months of each other. One guy was almost finished with Tweets. The other guy was almost finished with T-1s!

How much money do you think it cost the AF to send 2 guys through most of UPT? Answer: about 1.5 million dollars. Way to serve your country.

If you don't want to be a pilot, do the right thing and talk to your ROTC commander NOW.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Big Slick