Not going to UPT...will I get kicked out?

[Toro]

If you don't feel like you heart is in it, stop now. I have a personal story to back up that sentiment dealing with a WSO in the FTU - he went through UNT instead of UPT, but everything else could correlate directly to your situation.

Several months ago this student's performance took a nose dive in the FTU and he ended up going to a progress check (a check ride with the commander following multiple failed rides) that would determine whether he should continue. He passed the ride, but immediately following that ride, he let it be known that he did not want to continue in the program and did want to be an F-15E WSO. He said he had never wanted to be an F-15E WSO and he made this fact known during UNT, but his commanders encouraged him to continue in the hopes that he would change his mind.

He graduated UNT, came to the Strike Eagle, and made it 3/4 of the way through the FTU before he SIE'd. A lot of us speculate that his poor performance which led to the Progress check wasn't a factor of his ability, but rather of his lack of desire to be in the Strike Eagle.

Had he called Kings-X during UNT, he may have had a chance to be transferred to another AFSC before wasting too much of the AF's money. Now he has earned his Nav wings and wasted millions of dollars on F-15E training before deciding it wasn't for him. He is in the process of an FEB and will be lucky to stay in the Air Force, much less ever fly again.

If you have decided that it's not for you, it would be a wise decision to get out now. Not thinking you'll like UPT is different than not wanting to be a military pilot. Nobody 'likes' UPT, but if you don't have the desire to be a military pilot, you lose a primary motivation for UPT.

Feel free to PM me.

[LT4Life]

The point of IFS is for this exact situation. From what I understand, that's why they started IFT/IFS was because it was cheaper to spend 4 grand in a 172 to determine if a guy doesn't want to be a pilot as opposed to however much flying around a tweet.

My 2 cents.

[B-O-double-Z]

To be perfectly honest I cant pinpoint one reason why I don't want to be a military pilot. I feel like you have to be extremely passionate about what you do when you have a job where you can possibly be gone 200+ days a year...and I don't know if I am ready for that.

Your concerns are legitimate. It would be a shame if you didn't go to UPT because of the current operations tempo. There is a chance that by he time you go to UPT, then finish FTU and Mission Qual Training, things could be different. I hope they are. The last five years are not the norm historically. There was a time, when instead of being the world police, we trained for war against other militaries, and deployed to places where people sort of liked us. I don't know if those days will ever return. I'm just saying...be careful not to base your decision on a snapshot in time.

[Guest Big Slick]

Obviously IFT is doing its job. We want you to think about this stuff now, instead of after we spend a zillion dollars on you. If IFT convinces someone that flying is not for them, it has accomplished its purpose.

Everyone has their doubts at some point in their career. I see a lot of studs get demoralized when they fail their midphse checkride. A lot of airline furloughees wanted to start a new career after 9/11. Some folks want to give up flying after too many deployments.

BUT, we don't quit because deep down inside we feel like this is what we were meant to do. If you don't feel like this is your purpose in life, do something else.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning your desire to go to UPT.

The people that say you took someone else's slot are wrong. They are the same people who are sitting at third base on a blackjack table and say everyone else took their cards. You got your own pilot slot through a combination of timing and performance. It is yours.

ABC123 is absolutely correct, pilot training is hard, but not that hard. It was fun for me to do all the studying because I really enjoyed it and I was one of those guys who never wanted to do anything other than be an USAF pilot as long as I could ever remember. However, I met many, many people during my USAF career that kind of stumbled into flying and ended up loving it.

Bozz is also correct, you should not make a decision based on the hearsay from these boards or other people you talk to. You may well find you don't mind deploying. The opstempo will definitely change over the course of your time as a pilot. No one can predict how it will change. Some assignments you may deploy a lot and others you may have to work your ass off to go TDY.

There were so many things that changed during my USAF career that I cannot even begin to relate them here. There is absolutely no way I could have predicted my career path back when I went through FSP at Hondo (what used to be IFS). No way. There were points along the way that I thought "this is total bullshit" based on what I was seeing at the time, especially when my commander decided to send me to fixed wing qual as a non-vol two weeks after I had a RIP for my dream assignment to the 20th SOS on my desk. It worked out fine.

You mentioned some concern about being gone 200 days a year. That is typically only a major concern if your spouose can't stand you being away from home. Unfortunately, that is a legit reason not to be in the military at all. There is no way you can avoid being deployed just because you are not a pilot. No way. I would guess being deployed as a REMF would totally suck compared to deploying to fly or be a JTAC or some other no-shit combat related mission, but that's just me.

FWIW, I loved every single deployment I ever went on. Every single one. And had what some would consider a few extremely austere condition 18 hour day "Crew rest? I'm a SANDY 1, I'm always in crew rest!" type deployments...and they were the best. I had two assignments where I didn't get to deploy much, one as a helo pilot and the other as a formal flying course instructor. The assignments were great but I was always trying to figure out ways to go TDY because that is where much of the real learning takes place. The experiences you have on a deployment will shape your life and be part of your memory for the rest of your life. There are few other things you will do that you will remember 50 or 70 years after they happened. Doing something that has that kind of impact is always worth doing. Don't worry about deploying.

Of course, you will also remember your decision to not go to pilot training for the rest of your life.

Being a pilot is not like going through pilot training. Pilots can decide later that they would rather be contracting officers. The opposite is almost impossible to do. It is unlikely you will find a better job than being a pilot but you'll never know unless you try.

My advice, don't quit.

[slacker]

Well said, gearpig.

[Gravedigger]

I think this thread needs to be posted in every ROTC Detachment in the country. Being surrounded by a bunch of cocky cadets, and commanded by inexperienced pencil pushers really doesn't shed much light on reality, or present the opportunity to evaluate your own decisions.

Thanks to everyone that has posted, these are some great perspectives!

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Sean, I personally think the whole "passionate about flying" thing is a bunch of garbage.

Speak for yourself. Only yourself.

[Guest Big Slick]

Let’s say we have 10 UPT students quit or wash out of pilot training each FY. Every person that goes through half of pilot training costs the AF about $500,000. That costs AETC about 5 million dollars annually. In ten years, that’s $50,000,000.00 wasted dollars.

In my humble opinion, that is why the wash-out rate is so low in UPT right now. UPT leadership is hesitant to waste all that money. Back when the AF had lots of money and didn’t need pilots, they would wash out about one-third of every class. It’s basic supply and demand.

IFT is supposed to prepare you for UPT. It is also supposed identify who do not have an aptitude for aviation. Additionally, it is set up to let pilot candidates see if they like military flying. It’s a two way street, we are evaluating you and you are evaluating us.

Some people just don’t like to fly. Some people don’t like the structure of the military. Fine - don’t go to UPT. IFT is our attempt to cut down on the number of UPT washouts and SIEs.

Not only could that money be spent to train more pilots, it could be spent in other areas too. Sometimes “service” is not just about how things affect you.

Edited April 14, 2007 by Big Slick

[Guest Gumps]

Having completed Phase 2 (Tweets) I think I can shed a bit of perspective...

1. Dudes around me still come to pilot training thinking it will be "fun". It isn't. It's military flying, which isn't generally fun at all. BUT the flying is extremely rewarding when you finally learn how to fly a right turning rejoin to '3' or a learn to fly a barrel roll well...

There are also the moments during the sortie that will make you realize how cool it is to fly a military jet (popping out ontop of IMC, soloing, taking part in long standing traditions (hazing sometimes), etc.

2. This is not a chance you will ever get back, and I'd think long and hard about what your perception or work/reward is. If you are pussing out of pilot training because it will be stressful every day, demand long hours of studying, and generally suck (atleast in the beginning), then I'd be prepared to not accomplish many things in the rest of your life. Someone once said; "Life's hard, its harder if you are lazy" Case and point.

3. Best of luck in whichever way you go, just realize, there is a reason for all the shit you go through as a student. It gets much better (not easier)...it has to!

Edited April 14, 2007 by Gumps

[Guest Bender]

This probably should be posted in all the ROTC detachments, or they could just read this shit for themselves... (when did ###### become uncensored BTW...poor Imus...ha)

For all the good stuff in this thread, my BIG dilema right now...

The hotel I'm at has a casino and a strip club right acros the street! I figure I go to the casino first, then lose all my money at the strip club...technique only.

On the flight over here, I traded seats with a dude that owns a couple of WB TV networks...planting me next to a washed up 80's rock star:

Interesting conversation...he thought so (and even said so,) becuase I didn't want to hear about him touring with Ozzy or Metallica, which honestly, I couldn't care less about. We talked about everything but being a rock star and being a pilot, with two exceptions:

1. Looking out the window on approach, he caught a sunset. "This ######ing awesome," he says...I glanced out and said, "yeah, I guess." He replied with only, "I guess you get to see stuff like that all the time." We moved on to another topic in conversation.

2. He still has about a million or two more dollars than I do, so he bought all the drinks (and there were many; not count the ones waiting at the casino come 2300.) He gave a number of reasons for wanting to buy me drinks, but the only ones i remember are supporting the troops and him having a million dollars.

I suppose I would like to be a rock star...but, listening to him makes it seem like a real drag...like I said, I didn't ask, but I don't have too. I have a couple friends that are in well known bands and they "deploy" as much if not more...they get paid better, but when it's all said and done...they wish they were me; they wish they did what I did.

In a way I wish I did what they did...but I wouldn't trade.

BENDY

EDIT: I guess it's just uncensored in the squadron bar...or maybe I was just seeing things. That's never happened before! ;)

Edited April 14, 2007 by Bender

[Boxhead]

Ahhhh youth, I miss it so....

Having completed Phase 2 (Tweets) I think I can shed a bit of perspective...

3. Best of luck in whichever way you go, just realize, there is a reason for all the shit you go through as a student. It gets much better (not easier)...it has to!

ref #1...Man, that stinks for ya....I had a total blast all through Tweets and T-44s...it was way fun. The cool aspects I agree with you.

ref #2...agreed, but not for the same reason...maybe it was just me, but I never studied past dinner (OK, for N,W&C I broke that standard) and was in bed NLT 2100L Sun-Thurs...Effective time management is the key. Never have to cram, and you will lower your stress many times over.

Pilot training stress is 90% self-induced. If you just relax, do your best and are cool with that, it is all kinda fun. I felt bad for the dudes that were wrapped so tight they missed out on the positive aspects. (not saying you are one of those) Remember, check rides are just regular rides...just do what you usually do. Unless you suck...then do better that day. :)

[pcola]

I personally think if you quit now, you MAY end up regretting wasting the opportunity for the rest of your life. If you give it a legitimate shot and its still not for you, at least you'll know when you look back on it. You may even like it. I know most people say UPT is not fun. I had a blast. I loved UPT, and I love my current assignment.

My perspective: I served four years enlisted, got out, went to college, graduated, worked as an Elect. Eng. for 1 1/2 years, and the whole time wanted to be a pilot. When I finally got accepted to OTS, I had no doubt that I wanted to be in UPT. Military flying wasn't exactly what I expected, but it was always better than any other job I ever had. Even in UPT, I got to fly and meet some great people. Its a great life and I know its not for everybody, but you really should at least give it a shot, you won't get another one.

FWIW

[Guest Rainman A-10]

I did. Notice you quoted me as saying "I personally think...".

100% of the time, that means I am speaking for myself. Only myself.

I noticed you said "I think." I noticed you think what other people believe or feel "is a bunch of garbage" and then offered advice to a person trying to make a difficult decision.

You, obviously, have never had a passion for flying and you have become an EVALUATOR. That's great. It is also unusual.

Others have a passion for flying. It is real, for them.

He is going to run into many more people who have a passion for flying than don't. He needs to be aware of that, especially since that majority expect people to be as passionate and committed to flying as they are with little sympathy for those who don't.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

I guess I should've rephased it to say "Telling someone they have to be passionate about flying" thing is a bunch of garbage.

I've had the same thoughts as this dude and I'd rather see him stay with it.

Noted.

[sputnik]

Closest thread I could find to it, but saw a couple Lt's outprocessing. They failed out of IFS, the AF is booting them and handing them a bill for USAFA. I knew this happened a few years ago but hadn't heard of it recently. Anyone heard about this or know why this is happening?

[Bergman]

Closest thread I could find to it, but saw a couple Lt's outprocessing. They failed out of IFS, the AF is booting them and handing them a bill for USAFA. I knew this happened a few years ago but hadn't heard of it recently. Anyone heard about this or know why this is happening?

How do you graduate USAFA but fail out of IFS? Surely it isn't that difficult. WTF?

The AF is overmanned with officers right now, thus no need to keep them around - especially when the AF can get reimbursed for their schooling.

Doesn't seem like a wise long-term decision...but we all know how good the AF is at long range planning...

[Blue]

Does the Air Force no-kidding bill people in these situations?

I mean, I've always heard about it happening second-hand, but I've never met someone who was actually making payments to Uncle Sam due to failing out if IFT/UPT/Whatever. Does this really occur? How the hell does that work? Split it into 60 easy payments?

[SocialD]

Does the Air Force no-kidding bill people in these situations?

I mean, I've always heard about it happening second-hand, but I've never met someone who was actually making payments to Uncle Sam due to failing out if IFT/UPT/Whatever. Does this really occur? How the hell does that work? Split it into 60 easy payments?

No, it's 59 easy payments and 1 really fucking hard one (STS).

Edited April 22, 2013 by SocialD

[Smokin]

If you had an unrecognized fear of flying, uncontrollable motion sickness, or just didn't have the aptitude for flying I could see failing since that is why the AF started IFS in the first place. But it seems like a bit of a dirty trick to kick them out and make them pay back school if the guys still wanted to serve. Just because you're not a good pilot doesn't mean you would be bad at other career fields. Likely better than guys who they out-competed for the pilot spot to begin with.

I knew two in ROTC that had to pay back their scholarship. One failed a couple required classes and didn't have any money, so served enlisted. The other quit after the second year and made some sort of payment plan.

[Seriously]

If you had an unrecognized fear of flying, uncontrollable motion sickness, or just didn't have the aptitude for flying I could see failing since that is why the AF started IFS in the first place. But it seems like a bit of a dirty trick to kick them out and make them pay back school if the guys still wanted to serve. Just because you're not a good pilot doesn't mean you would be bad at other career fields. Likely better than guys who they out-competed for the pilot spot to begin with.

I knew two in ROTC that had to pay back their scholarship. One failed a couple required classes and didn't have any money, so served enlisted. The other quit after the second year and made some sort of payment plan.

It's the easy way out. Instead of the Air Force taking that officer and placing him in another career field where there may or may not be extra room to absorb another new guy, they just kick them out of the Air Force and bill them for the education. And people wonder why there are less and less applicants for pilot slots these days. Cadets are afraid to fail because failure means losing their career before it begins and taking on a massive amount of debt.

[Muscle2002]

It's the easy way out. Instead of the Air Force taking that officer and placing him in another career field where there may or may not be extra room to absorb another new guy, they just kick them out of the Air Force and bill them for the education. And people wonder why there are less and less applicants for pilot slots these days. Cadets are afraid to fail because failure means losing their career before it begins and taking on a massive amount of debt.

Did they actually fail out or did they SIE? I've heard of the latter, never the former in terms of being billed for the education/training.

[SocialD]

And people wonder why there are less and less applicants for pilot slots these days. Cadets are afraid to fail because failure means losing their career before it begins and taking on a massive amount of debt.

If someone lets their fear of failing UPT keep them from trying, it probably wasn't for them anyway.

[Fuzz]

I've heard of both, but that was all second hand, the only person I actually know that I had to pay back was an SIE.

[Rusty Pipes]

I love the irony of this... All of these box checking Sq/Gp/Wg Commanders will tell pilots who actually want to do their job instead of all the meaningless queep (AAD/PME in Cor/Etc) that they are an "Officer First" instead of a pilot, but then you have a kid who either washes out or quits UPT/Flight Screening and they say, "Sorry, we hired you to be a pilot... you're out and here is the bill".