RVSM Questions

[LT4Life]

I've heard from a few different guys that when in RVSM airspace you should climb/descend at 1000fpm. I can't find any concrete source stating this so I'm wondering if anybody else has heard of this or know where it could be referenced. I understand it makes sense with TCAS and whatnot but I'm just curious if it's strictly a technique.

Thanks.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

I've heard from a few different guys that when in RVSM airspace you should climb/descend at 1000fpm. I can't find any concrete source stating this so I'm wondering if anybody else has heard of this or know where it could be referenced. I understand it makes sense with TCAS and whatnot but I'm just curious if it's strictly a technique.

Thanks.

There is nothing in the RVSM procedures which dictates your descent rate while operating in RVSM airspace. The issues you are talking about is *applied* more in EUR RVSM than in the states. There is no specific regulation as to the vertical speeds within EUR RVSM airspace. The guidance to prevent over/undershooting and the triggering of TCAS alerts should be followed. It is recommended that a vertical speed of between 500 and 1000 fpm is applied between 1000 and 1500 feet from the Cleared Flight Level (CFL). Therefore, in the absence of a specific ATC instruction with regard to climb rates, a normal climb or descent rate appropriate to the profile should be carried out until approximately 1000 - 1500 ft before the CFL.

Although it's a good technique to plan on losing 1000 fpm in RVSM, pilots are generally too lazy to think ahead to do the math on descent rates - hence, no procedure.

At Ramstein, we used the following website as a training tool for newbies to discuss. It should answer your original question(s):

https://www.arinc.com/downloads/tcas/ACAS%2...in%20No%202.pdf

[LT4Life]

Thanks. That was what I was looking for.

[Techsan]

I like to climb at 3000+ fpm, that way everyone's TCAS will get a TA, with the eventual RA. Technique only.

BTW, I hate it when guys say technique only. I also hate it when guys say..."To piggy back on what ____ said..."

[Guest Sessy]

Ran a search, this was the closest thing I could find on the subject but does anyone know if the T-1 is RVSM certified? If a T-1 is at FL320, do they need to follow the FAA directive and append "non RVSM" to each checkin with center?

thanks

sessy

[Right Seat Driver]

I like to climb at 3000+ fpm, that way everyone's TCAS will get a TA, with the eventual RA. Technique only.

BTW, I hate it when guys say technique only. I also hate it when guys say..."To piggy back on what ____ said..."

Or the famous UPT phrase..."To caveat on that."

[HookEmAll]

It is listed as a "should" in GP. (GP is the "military" source document for this). I use it as a sound technique, especially in crowded/busy airspace. I blow it off around Grand Forks. The intent is to reduce the chance of TCAS RAs at high altitude due to reduced altitude separation.

[Wolf424]

Or the famous UPT phrase..."To caveat on that."

Or the other classic: "Excellent flight, good overall"

[Right Seat Driver]

From the 135v3: Limit climb and descent rates to 1,000 feet per minute when operating near other aircraft

to reduce potential TCAS advisories.

[TarHeelPilot]

Ran a search, this was the closest thing I could find on the subject but does anyone know if the T-1 is RVSM certified?

Negative.

[Riddller]

It has all the equipment to be certified, but the AF hasn't spent the money yet to get the piece of paper.

It's like right now, after 2 months of C-17 training, with all the gee-wiz computer crap on it, it's got all the equipment to be certified for GPS approaches and SIDs, but we don't have the piece of paper yet saying we can do it. Crazy.

[BADFNZ]

Since we're discussing UPT-isms, since when is our unit of time measured in potatoes?

[Combat Platypus]

It has all the equipment to be certified, but the AF hasn't spent the money yet to get the piece of paper.

It's like right now, after 2 months of C-17 training, with all the gee-wiz computer crap on it, it's got all the equipment to be certified for GPS approaches and SIDs, but we don't have the piece of paper yet saying we can do it. Crazy.

Yet my off the line corporate turboprop that I fly for the USAF with the same Garmin my dad has in his '67 V-35 can?

Honestly, it might be more than just a piece of paper. If your FMS or equivalent allows you to manipulate the database entries then you can't get the cert. This was at least the problem with the legacy Herc.

[XL0901]

Yet my off the line corporate turboprop that I fly for the USAF with the same Garmin my dad has in his '67 V-35 can?

Honestly, it might be more than just a piece of paper. If your FMS or equivalent allows you to manipulate the database entries then you can't get the cert. This was at least the problem with the legacy Herc.

So...are you refering to RVSM in the T-1 or GPS approaches in the C-17?

Edited May 14, 2009 by XL0901

[Hacker]

Since we're discussing UPT-isms, since when is our unit of time measured in potatoes?

Because guys at Vance, Sheppard, and Laughlin don't want to say "one mississippi, two mississippi, three mississippi..."

[snoopyeast]

Since we're discussing UPT-isms, since when is our unit of time measured in potatoes?

When velocity or closure rate is referred to as smash and doing something crazy is a hiyaka.

[60 driver]

If a T-1 is at FL320, do they need to follow the FAA directive and append "non RVSM" to each checkin with center?

If your airplane isn't RVSM certified you aren't getting cleared to 320 in the first place.

Which brings up a question I've been wondering about. My current civilian ride is RVSM certified, so it's not something we really think about all that much, but the topic comes up every now and then: Who is RVSM certified besides the C-17 (?) and for those of you that aren't (T-1/T-38/F-16/F-15)? what altitude do you guys go places at nowdays?

Edited May 14, 2009 by 60 driver

[163 FS]

You can still be up in the RVSM airspace even though you are not in an RVSM airplane. The controllers just need to let you up there. Something like, "Chicago center, Fatty 69, 250, requesting 330, negative RVSM." They can clear you if they want, but they don't have to if it is busy or whatever.

I've had a 50% luck in my experiences.

Edited May 14, 2009 by Tweet FAIP

[JarheadBoom]

KC-10 is RVSM-compliant.

Actually, let me rephrase - I'm 99.69% cretain the KC-10 is, because I've never head a pilot add "negative RVSM" to an altitude request above FL320. Maybe Techsan will see this and confirm... or deny, and make me look stupid.

[Herk Driver]

If your airplane isn't RVSM certified you aren't getting cleared to 320 in the first place.

Not necessarily true.

[PirateAF]

When velocity or closure rate is referred to as smash and doing something crazy is a hiyaka.

My favorite was "haulin' the mail".

[RangerMateo]

If your airplane isn't RVSM certified you aren't getting cleared to 320 in the first place.

We get up there all the time in the Toner on long legs. They are *supposed* to let you in as a military aircraft if they can swing it...there's even a form you can fill out if you get denied RVSM. Can't say I've ever filled one out before though.

[60 driver]

We get up there all the time in the Toner on long legs. They are *supposed* to let you in as a military aircraft if they can swing it...there's even a form you can fill out if you get denied RVSM. Can't say I've ever filled one out before though.

I stand corrected.

My mil fixed wing experience was prior to RVSM, and my last 2 civilian rides have both been RVSM certified so I never really thought about it - and I've never heard the "Negative RVSM" call on the radio. I learned something today!

[Bluto]

I have been up there several times in the T-38 but have also gotten denied several times too. For the military thing I wouldn't say that applies to trainers but it did apply at my last assignment.

[PirateAF]

From the 135v3: Limit climb and descent rates to 1,000 feet per minute when operating near other aircraft

to reduce potential TCAS advisories.

From the AFMAN 11-217V3 - when entering or changing flight levels within RVSM airspace, vertical speeds should be limited to 1000 feet per minute or less. This helps ensure the aircraft does not overshoot or undershoot the assigned FL by more than 150 feet and reduce the likelihood of inadvertent TCAS resolution advisories occuring.