Navigators - Buff's or Slicks?

[Guest Justshootme]

All,

Long time listener, first time caller. I've searched (and searched and searched) through this forum for while, but haven't quite found enough info to solve my little dilemma. I'm in nav training at Randolph, 3 weeks away from a/c drop, #1 in my class, and split 50/50 on B-52's or C-130's, specifically to Ramstein. I think I'd be thrilled with either mission, so "part" of my decision making does come down to what's better for my wife. She loves traveling and all that jazz, still unsettled by the ops tempo of flying, but I imagine every new AF wife is. Specific pros or cons to either assignment would be greatly appreciated.

JSM

[drewpey]

All,

Long time listener, first time caller. I've searched (and searched and searched) through this forum for while, but haven't quite found enough info to solve my little dilemma. I'm in nav training at Randolph, 3 weeks away from a/c drop, #1 in my class, and split 50/50 on B-52's or C-130's, specifically to Ramstein. I think I'd be thrilled with either mission, so "part" of my decision making does come down to what's better for my wife. She loves traveling and all that jazz, still unsettled by the ops tempo of flying, but I imagine every new AF wife is. Specific pros or cons to either assignment would be greatly appreciated.

JSM

I wouldn't put 130s if you are just wanting Ramstein...there are a lot of other bases that you might end up at, even being #1.

just the basic pros and cons though, only two locations for the buff, but you will be the mission on the plane eventually. I'm not sure what the cross-training is like in the buff, but I imagine they like to keep their navs around and not cross train them out if it takes a while to upgrade to radar nav. So you will be looking at a career w/ the buff, which might be good or bad, depending on how you like the mission, location, etc.

If you go 130s, you open up the doors to cross train to some of the other platforms out there, allowing you to get a bigger variety of places to be stationed, and different missions, should you choose to later. Also there are a lot of guard and reserve opportunities that you might want to think about later down the road. While you could always go this route with other platforms, it might be easier getting into a unit if you are already trained in that platform, or at least a similar variant. Also keep in mind that with the J model coming online, along with the AMP upgrade, the future of Hercs is starting to look questionable. You won't hear that at the 562nd b/c most those guys are 130 navs, and don't want to read the writing on the wall. Things change, money drives everything, hercs could have navs for the rest of your career, or they could be phased out tomorrow, no one knows.

The big issue though is that these two planes do completely different missions, and thats what you need to be asking yourself. Do you want to be hauling beans, beds and bullets, seeing the world, or do you want to be putting bombs on the bad guys? Different lifestyles for different people.

[HerkDerka]

I wouldn't put 130s if you are just wanting Ramstein...there are a lot of other bases that you might end up at,

Yeah, why take a chance getting Ramstein when you can guarantee yourself either Minot or Barksdale?

HD

[dmeg130]

There's only so many golden eggs out there, and I think the -130 guys will generally agree that Ramstein is one of them.

The J model does present some interesting issues for navs in the community. As they come on line, there may be more opportunities for slick navs to crossflow into SOF and rescue platforms that will continue to have navs. Even if the J model is the new tanker, we're pushing hard to maintain a CSO position as a requirement. Where you will end up and when is hard to say.

As for the BUFF, you know where you're going. You can put a crapload of iron out of that thing -- where YOU want it. And that's a great job.

A good problem to face. Good luck -- we need good navs.

[Toasty]

It just depends on the mission you want. Do you want to kill from 40k feet and never see the target, the country, or any of the places you'll be flying over? Or do you want to fly low and slow, stopping multiple times on your way to go anywhere, seeing every part of earth imaginable?

I'm biased, though.

Different lifestyles.

[Guest Ftrooper91]

As an AFRC Herc Nav I certainly have a prejudice. Right now being in the Herc means being gone, quite a bit as a young guy. BUT it also means flying some of the best missions of your career. If you like variety, and enjoy traveling to a lot of different places then the Herc will give you that. I never crewed a BUFF but I have several Squadron mates who have and they loved it, for different reasons. Both have some serious suck points. Most of those deal with lifestyle. However, my best advice FWIW is this.......the people you will work and fly with will be some of the best people you ever met. You will have a blast in either airframe if you choose to. If you choose to make it suck and bitch and scream about how it sucks, then it will suck. Both aircraft will give you a terrific experience for different reasons. I flew a different MWS on Active Duty then came to the Herc and I am having the time of my life. It is what you make of it.

[Guest Justshootme]

Thanks to all so far for the responses...I suppose I can take a hit for not really asking a clear question.

I LOVE the mission of the buff, but as of late I've also come to realize the best parts of the slick nav's job. I totally agree with the aforementioned statement that any mission, base, etc is totally what you make of it. So, that being said, here's my dilemma.

The wife is cool with the ops tempo and lifestyle of the B-52 crowd, and surprisingly enough is completely cool with living in a place like Minot. So, no arguments there.

Concerning a slick slot, She's not thrilled with the ops tempo at all, but has said she might be able to deal if we got to live overseas for a while, hence the interest in Ramstein. For you non-nav types, we get assigned our a/c AND duty station at the same time, so I'd be taking a c-130 assignment already knowing I'd be headed to Ramstein. I know I know, great first assignments usually mean crappy 2nd assignments, so I suppose we'd just be preparing to take a hit on that one.

I guess the real question I'm asking comes down to this: in each of your experiences, if you were a young, newly married LT with a wife who is not yet accustomed to the "vices" of being married to a flyer, what might you choose, assuming you were cool with either mission?

Thanks for your thoughts

[Guest Ftrooper91]

Well, you don't yet know what your next wife will think about it........I keed I keed. I can only tell you that the location should not be the reason you hang your hat on.

[Mitch Weaver]

99% of the people who bash Minot have never lived there.

[Guest Justshootme]

99% of the people who bash Minot have never lived there.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound negative...we're both actually cold-weather types and love a small town setting, so Minot is a plus...especially since it's not Barksdale

[Guest Cam]

All,

Long time listener, first time caller. I've searched (and searched and searched) through this forum for while, but haven't quite found enough info to solve my little dilemma. I'm in nav training at Randolph, 3 weeks away from a/c drop, #1 in my class, and split 50/50 on B-52's or C-130's, specifically to Ramstein. I think I'd be thrilled with either mission, so "part" of my decision making does come down to what's better for my wife. She loves traveling and all that jazz, still unsettled by the ops tempo of flying, but I imagine every new AF wife is. Specific pros or cons to either assignment would be greatly appreciated.

JSM

This is pretty much an apples or oranges type of question.

The missions are obviously night and day. One of the things I love about the Buff is that we're always among the first to strike during any conflict. If you want to kill people and break their shit, this is the jet to do it in.

Pros for the Buff:

1. Stable/predictable family-friendly lifestyle- deployments are predictable; after you graduate the FTU and go to your Ops Squadron, you can expect to deploy about 4 months every 12-15 months or so.

2. Nice deployment locations. Right now we primarily go to Guam for a Pacific AOR presence. When we support CENTCOM we go to Diego Garcia (tropical island in the IO) or England. We do NOT deploy to the desert, which is a big plus in my opinion. Nothing beats sipping a Mai Tai on the deck of the Diego O-club overlooking the ocean at the end of a hard day.

3. If you don't want to move around a whole lot, "homesteading" is very easy. I'm married with three kids, and I've managed to stay at Barksdale for 7 years and counting. If you do want to move, there plenty of opportunities like ALO, UAVs, AETC, and it is possible to move back and forth between Barksdale and Minot.

4. We employ just about every weapon in the Air Force inventory, which keeps the mission interesting,

Cons:

1. The Buff is only based at Barksdale and Minot. Although I think there's a lot to be said in favor of both locations, that's A LOT fewer choices than you'd have as a -130 guy.

2. In the -130 you'll get to see the world. In the Buff...not so much. Like I mentioned, we only go to Guam, Diego, and England.

3. Sitting downstairs as a Nav isn't the most comfortable job in the world. No window, it's noisy, and it smells bad. Most of our Navs get used to it pretty quickly and still enjoy the mission and all the weapons they get to operate, but the Buff definitely is not the most comfortable jet to ride around in. I imagine the -130 is a lot more comfortable to fly in.

4. We're still not sure how the drawdown in airframes will effect our manning. There is an outside chance that you could find yourself forceshaping eligible, but it doesn't look like this will be the case.

Feel free to PM me if you have any more questions. If you like, I can give you some names of instructors there at Randolph who were Navs or EWs on the Buff.

Edited April 15, 2007 by Cam

[Guest Cam]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound negative...we're both actually cold-weather types and love a small town setting, so Minot is a plus...especially since it's not Barksdale

What's wrong with Barksdale? I've been to MUCH worse places than Shreveport. This city offers a lot of "big city" advantages- lots of entertainment options, shopping, TONS of good resturants, but is still small enough that we don't have all the traffic and congestion that you'd associate with a truely large city. The cost of living is also very low compared to a lot of places. I just built a nice house in a beautiful new subdivision for $280K. The same house in a comparable neighborhood where I'm from (SoCal) would probably cost around $750K or more.

There are certainly nicer places to live, depending on what you like, but Barksdale is not THAT bad.

[Guest jojo61397]

I'm chiming in as a wife-- I'm buff girl. I like the community, you KNOW just about everyone. It's nice that's it's two bases. If you don't want to be a fast burner in the career field you can pick a base and rot there. Ops tempo isn't too bad. And PP are right, the people who complain about Mindrot are people who haven't had the distinct privilege of living in a place that's colder than witch's tit in a brass brasier in the northern side of a ice berg. In all serious, I like it here. This is the first and only home I have had since leaving my parents 13 years ago. I spent time at Cannon (crap hole), Keesler (bigger craphole), Barksdale (OK, but with my current situation not the best), and Germany (ALO-- that's a whole 'nother thread). And one thing that mindrot has that bark-a-tras doesn't-- EWO PARTY!!!!!!!!

And in all honesty, I'm cool with traveling, but I didn't like living overseas. I'm a midwest home body. You take the good with the bad. If you are that psyched about the mission take the buff- it's a really good community. And if you are willing to torpedo some opportunities (like B-2), you can become a UAV pilot, or you can do an ALO tour.

[Guest Herkator]

I guess the real question I'm asking comes down to this: in each of your experiences, if you were a young, newly married LT with a wife who is not yet accustomed to the "vices" of being married to a flyer, what might you choose, assuming you were cool with either mission?

Thanks for your thoughts

Depending on how well you know your wife, you may want to take a longer term view on this one. As a herc nav and first assignment Ramstein guy, I know how I would select again. It should still be a great assignment even though they are doing desert time too. However, like you said, how is she going to like that second assignment to Dyess or the Rock. If you go to the schoolhouse at the Rock after 3 or 4 years in Germany (may or may not be that long due to the J model), you wouldn't deploy as much but you'd be in a HOT wx location for at least three years. Other than the Rock, you'd be somewhere where you'd be deploying probably six months out of 12. As for transitioning to Spec Ops as the J/AMP comes on line, then you're really going to be gone a bunch while the wife gets used to being alone at Herby or Cannon (maybe?).

So, the BUFF might be the safe play for the long term (assuming you'll be good enough not to get force shaped) with the Herc having some initial short term payoffs but poor long term returns.

[Guest Justshootme]

Depending on how well you know your wife, you may want to take a longer term view on this one. As a herc nav and first assignment Ramstein guy, I know how I would select again. It should still be a great assignment even though they are doing desert time too. However, like you said, how is she going to like that second assignment to Dyess or the Rock. If you go to the schoolhouse at the Rock after 3 or 4 years in Germany (may or may not be that long due to the J model), you wouldn't deploy as much but you'd be in a HOT wx location for at least three years. Other than the Rock, you'd be somewhere where you'd be deploying probably six months out of 12. As for transitioning to Spec Ops as the J/AMP comes on line, then you're really going to be gone a bunch while the wife gets used to being alone at Herby or Cannon (maybe?).

So, the BUFF might be the safe play for the long term (assuming you'll be good enough not to get force shaped) with the Herc having some initial short term payoffs but poor long term returns.

Thanks for the insight...Can I assume that all things being equal, would you have chosen Ramstein again as a 1st assignment? I know you guys are doing the desert thing, but how often compared to the CONUS Herks? The wife has said she'd be willing to put up with LR if she had to if it meant Germany for a few years, especially b/c it's reasonably close to family in TN. I would probably push hard for either LR as an Instructor or (gulp) back to CSO school, which will be in PCOLA by then. Also, how realistic is it for me to think of transitioning to Guard/reserve after being in the buff? (sts)

Thanks!

[Guest jojo61397]

Thanks for the insight...Can I assume that all things being equal, would you have chosen Ramstein again as a 1st assignment? I know you guys are doing the desert thing, but how often compared to the CONUS Herks? The wife has said she'd be willing to put up with LR if she had to if it meant Germany for a few years, especially b/c it's reasonably close to family in TN. I would probably push hard for either LR as an Instructor or (gulp) back to CSO school, which will be in PCOLA by then. Also, how realistic is it for me to think of transitioning to Guard/reserve after being in the buff? (sts)

Thanks!

There's a buff reserve unit in Barksdale, and I know several buff drivers who went guard as IPs at various schools around the US.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Think mission and prioritize from there.

Don't worry about your wife, she will be happy if you treat her right and unhappy if you don't.

[M2]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound negative...we're both actually cold-weather types and love a small town setting, so Minot is a plus...especially since it's not Barksdale

Dude, you've just absolutely, positively guaranteed you are going to Barksdale...

Cheers! M2

[Guest jojo61397]

Think mission and prioritize from there.

Don't worry about your wife, she will be happy if you treat her right and unhappy if you don't.

ITA! I wouldn't care what my husband flew, as long as he was happy doing it :).

[Guest Justshootme]

Update Update

Thanks to all for the comments...same thread, slightly different topic:

This kid's going to Barksdale!

Anyone have any info on what to expect from the training there? pace, difficulty, etc? I love a challenge, and I'm hoping the gayness that overflows from the 562nd isn't SOP for RTU. Also, I've heard that trying to get a place on base is next to impossible. Any recommendations?

Thanks!

JSM

[Mitch Weaver]

The wait list for housing at Barksdale varies, but expect at least 1 year (at least that's what it was in '03). I've never heard of a student moving right into base housing, especially since you could always end up in Minot.

If you did ok at JSUNT, then you'll do fine at the FTU. Talk to Lamerde and Visa at the 562d- good guys who'll tell you all you want to hear. Good luck.

[Guest jojo61397]

Just be aware of where final is... My husband rented a place in Bossier City, and it was on Airline Drive, right along final approach. B-dale is a busy airfield and it really sucked especially night flying...

[Guest Cam]

Update Update

Thanks to all for the comments...same thread, slightly different topic:

This kid's going to Barksdale!

Anyone have any info on what to expect from the training there? pace, difficulty, etc? I love a challenge, and I'm hoping the gayness that overflows from the 562nd isn't SOP for RTU. Also, I've heard that trying to get a place on base is next to impossible. Any recommendations?

Thanks!

JSM

Are you here yet? I'm the only FTU IP with the first name "Cam." I'm an Ops Flight CC, along with Maki and Stretch. I'd be happy to answer your questions face-to-face if you still have any.

Cheers