C-21 information

[HuggyU2]

We had a high-time U-2 pilot get the opportunity to go be a C-21 DO a few years back. He came back to the U-2, but said he loved his time in the C-21. That said a lot to me.

Also, our C-21 guys that have come to the U-2 were able to apply fairly quickly, due to the fact they can build hours quickly. One pilot says he picked C-21's for that very reason, e.g. to get to the U-2. Most of our C-21 pilots have done very well in the U-2. All of them say the C-21 was a great tour, especially those that were based OCONUS.

[Guest tmickel]

Good info that should probably be bumped or incorporated into some FAQ somewhere. I know there's been some misinformation lately -- I was told by one guy back in Phase II that a C-21 drop is essentially a C-130 drop... After your tour in the -21, you're off to -130s. Not bad for someone who wants them, but for the guys (and gals) who want something different, that made the C-21 look less appealing.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Good info that should probably be bumped or incorporated into some FAQ somewhere. I know there's been some misinformation lately -- I was told by one guy back in Phase II that a C-21 drop is essentially a C-130 drop... After your tour in the -21, you're off to -130s. Not bad for someone who wants them, but for the guys (and gals) who want something different, that made the C-21 look less appealing.

Your "firend" is blowing smoke, and it should be taken w/ a grain of salt - if taken at all.

Back in the day, say 4 years ago, C-21's had a follow-on assignment, either tanker, strat, or tac. Period. You then had to request the airframe within that category that you tracked. Period. I was in the first class to not be given follow-ons after I had been given a strat. About 4 days after assignment night, I was told of the new plan, but I stayed in the C-21 because I was told that strat would most likely still be given out. It worked out for me - but others didn't get their first choice.

Nowadays, and folks in the C-21 correct me if I'm wrong...

If you get a C-21, after your tour, you will be given a quartely drop in which everyone who is due for an assignment gets racked and stacked (again). The SQ/CC's then deal out the assignments.

This is good (and bad) depending on how you want to look at it. I would say it is good for getting a feel around to give you more options in the future. It cripples you a bit by not giving you something firm to look forward too. There have been folks go from C-21 direct to the U-2.

However, things always change and the needs of the AF should always be kept in mind.

[speedy782]

C-21 Pilot is right. I'm currently in C-21s and all sorts of aircraft are being given out after the C-21 assignment. You get racked and stacked with the other C-21 pilots quarterly, and then the SQ/CC will do their best to give you what you want based on what is available. It has happened where some guys have done really well in C-21s but haven't gotten their first choice because it wasn't available. Lately, we have had guys get AC-130 gunships, KC-135s, C-17s, MC-130s, C-130s to Ramstein, C-5s to Travis, KC-10s to McGuire. U-2s are out there too. They are much more rare, but it is still possible.

It sucks not knowing what MWS you will fly, but flying the C-21 has been a lot of fun and I've had the opportunity to learn about the other airframes in the desert. My preferences are very different than they were in pilot training. If there are any other C-21 rumors, feel free to PM me instead of potentially spreading false information out there.

[Guest tmickel]

If there are any other C-21 rumors, feel free to PM me instead of potentially spreading false information out there.

My intent wasn't to spread false information -- I was posting something that I had heard and stated pretty explicitly that it was misinformation.

Regardless, thanks for the clarifications -- I think the C-21 would be a sweet jet to fly and would probably rank it somewhere around the middle of my dream sheet if my drop gets any of 'em. I'm curious, do you guys see a lot of guys coming into C-21s for a tour out of an MWS? I know it happens, just wondering how often.

[speedy782]

There are starting to be more and more Prior Qualed pilots from other MWS's, and less and less first assignment guys in the C-21. So yes, that is currently an option. However, life in C-21s is much better as a first assignment guy than a prior qualed guy. The prior qualed pilots are showing up to squadron, getting pushed through a 3 month upgrade to Aircraft Commander (where they have to get 100 hours and finish their upgrade), and then typically, not always, but typically getting sent out the door for a 4 month non-flying CAOC gig. What appeared to be a good deal ends up w/ them showing up, flying enough that they can't spend much time w/ the family, and then getting shoved out the door...all in their first 7 months. When they get back they usually hold a flight commander spot where they work on awards packages/OPRs and get tasked w/ stuff like heading up the airshow or putting other major events together. As a first assignment pilot, you will show up, get mission qualed, fly 2 or 3 times a week and start out w/ only a few additional duties. You can expect to do a 90 day flying deployment in your first year, and once a year after that. A handful of first assignment pilots are getting the 4 month non flying CAOC tours towards the end of their 3 year tour. If you are considering the C-21 at all, I'd recommend doing it as a first assignment. Just my personal opinion.

[Guest tmickel]

Good info -- as with everything else in the Air Force, there's a give and take no matter which way you go!

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Fully agree...

I would only take a C-21 after a MWS assignment if it were to Ramstein. Anything else would be a VERY distant fourth.

[Techsan]

Fully agree...

I would only take a C-21 after a MWS assignment if it were to Ramstein. Anything else would be a VERY distant fourth.

Biased opinion. Weren't you at Ramstein?

[pcola]

There are starting to be more and more Prior Qualed pilots from other MWS's, and less and less first assignment guys in the C-21. So yes, that is currently an option. However, life in C-21s is much better as a first assignment guy than a prior qualed guy. The prior qualed pilots are showing up to squadron, getting pushed through a 3 month upgrade to Aircraft Commander (where they have to get 100 hours and finish their upgrade), and then typically, not always, but typically getting sent out the door for a 4 month non-flying CAOC gig. What appeared to be a good deal ends up w/ them showing up, flying enough that they can't spend much time w/ the family, and then getting shoved out the door...all in their first 7 months. When they get back they usually hold a flight commander spot where they work on awards packages/OPRs and get tasked w/ stuff like heading up the airshow or putting other major events together. As a first assignment pilot, you will show up, get mission qualed, fly 2 or 3 times a week and start out w/ only a few additional duties. You can expect to do a 90 day flying deployment in your first year, and once a year after that. A handful of first assignment pilots are getting the 4 month non flying CAOC tours towards the end of their 3 year tour. If you are considering the C-21 at all, I'd recommend doing it as a first assignment. Just my personal opinion.

This is the case for the stateside C-21 PQPs and is definitely NOT the case for our PQPs at Ramstein. C-21s at Ramstein: you will only deploy if you volunteer. You will do at least 50% of the cool shit that C-21 Pilot talked about. Our PQPs still typically take 6 months or more to upgrade and they still get lots of time/opportunity to travel Europe with the family. I would recommend C-21s at Ramstein to anybody. I don't know a single person who regrets it, and I also don't know a single person who could have anticipated how fun/challenging/rewarding flying the lear in Europe is.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Just curious,

From those that aer theere or who have been recently -

If you had to pick, what airframe in the 76th would you prefer? I assume the 21 has the best day to day life, since you'd be hopping around USAFE and home at night. It would seem the other two airframes would be on the road a week, then home for three, most of that being to ADW. That's just a guess. What do you think?

Camelot,

While I was at ETAR I had the ability to fly missions on all 4 of the 76th airframes (they retired the DV-9 about 3 yrs ago) - obs rider on the large planes. All are interesting to say the least, and I enjoyed getting to see what they did.

If I were to go back, I would want to fly either the C-40 or C-20 - with the C-40 probably getting the nod, simply knowing what's out there and the networking that market with a civilian job if that were the avenue that I was looking to pursue. You'll leave w/ either a 737 type rating, or a GIII type rating - you can't lose with either. However, as you mentioned, for most folks in the 76th, all would probable agree that the C-21 mission there is tops for "being able to do and see different stuff."

The ETAR-KADW "myth" is simply that, a myth. Yeah, sure they do that mission quite a bit, and I'm sure it gets boring. But, they also get to see and do numerous things that the C-21 simply cannot do. They also deploy in those other airplanes, as the ETAR C-21 folks do not get tagged (normally).

As far as being home, I was gone more days TDY than I was at home...that's he norm. I normally was gone approx 15 days a month - which is more than what I'm gone now in the C-17. Like you said, though, 2 days here, 3 days there are the typical C-21 RON's....which is awesome when you have a family, etc.

If you need some contacts for those airplanes, shoot me a PM and I can get you in contact with a majority of the folks there.

Biased opinion. Weren't you at Ramstein?

Yes...for 3 yrs....and Offutt....for 2 yrs, so fortunately, I was able to speak from both sides of my mouth on this one.

[BADFNZ]

I'd like to bring this back from the dead since my drop is soon approaching.

Has any of the above info changed recently, as far as mission, ops tempo, deployments, rumors, etc? Also, I read that the academics and sims are done in Dallas, and then the flight training at Keesler. Is this still true?

[speedy782]

I don't know what life is like at Ramstein, but I can speak for CONUS. Mission is the same, deployments are about 90-120 days once a year, training is still at Dallas and Keesler. If there is another assignment you really want, don't delay it for the C-21.

[contraildash]

Expect a ETAR update in a month. :)

I am being told that ETAR isn't 'deploying' pilots as the CONUS units are, although you can volunteer to go play in the sand.

[Frank88]

Any new info/updates regarding C-21 life/tempo at ETAR?

[Guest HerkyDerk]

Any new info/updates regarding the best way to transition into a C21 ? Deploying constantly won't be an issue. I'm ready to get gone and do something.

[Guest romichan]

I heard C-21s are bad fit/career killer for a late rate (Capt) due to the whole OSA vs. MWS arguement.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

Edited January 23, 2011 by romichan

[C-21.Pilot]

I heard C-21s are bad fit/career killer for a late rate (Capt) due to the whole OSA vs. MWS arguement.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

Depends on what/where you want your career to go. If you're looking to go CSAF, you're probably already screwed.

Rather, did you make IP or EP in the MWS before you moved over -- which is looked at on your PRF. From the "Hey, you want to have MWS IP on your PRF" argument is the only valid argument I can think of. You are probably not competitive for 2 BTZ as a late rate, so IMHO it probably doesn't matter.

Any new info/updates regarding the best way to transition into a C21 ? Deploying constantly won't be an issue. I'm ready to get gone and do something.

Put it on your PRF and talk to your CC. There were several C-21s to ETAR given from McChord recently.

[Learjetter]

I heard C-21s are bad fit/career killer for a late rate (Capt) due to the whole OSA vs. MWS arguement.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

It's likely the same as late-rated MWS- (WIC,OSA,AETC,ALO, TPS)-MWS. Can be good, can be seen as bad. If you strat well-you'll be fine no matter where you are. No or low strat? Doesn't matter either. My advice has always been do what seems fun/exciting/challenging and do it well...the rest will work itself out.

[Guest romichan]

Depends on what/where you want your career to go. If you're looking to go CSAF, you're probably already screwed.

Rather, did you make IP or EP in the MWS before you moved over -- which is looked at on your PRF. From the "Hey, you want to have MWS IP on your PRF" argument is the only valid argument I can think of. You are probably not competitive for 2 BTZ as a late rate, so IMHO it probably doesn't matter.

Put it on your PRF and talk to your CC. There were several C-21s to ETAR given from McChord recently.

Its too early to tell where I want my career to go... I've seen some interesting stuff in this Air Force. I just don't want to piss my career away early.

No IP or EP background. Prior Nav, graduating UPT soon.

It's likely the same as late-rated MWS- (WIC,OSA,AETC,ALO, TPS)-MWS. Can be good, can be seen as bad. If you strat well-you'll be fine no matter where you are. No or low strat? Doesn't matter either. My advice has always been do what seems fun/exciting/challenging and do it well...the rest will work itself out.

I have great strats from previous assignments.

I was told by my mentor that "If you do an OSA assignment you are going to be an 0-4 with no credibility in a major weapon system as a pilot."

On the other hand, I completely agree with you... do what you want and do it well.

[Learjetter]

I have great strats from previous assignments.

I was told by my mentor that "If you do an OSA assignment you are going to be an 0-4 with no credibility in a major weapon system as a pilot."

Your mentor is concerned about your 04 chances? The credibility he speaks of could mean IP, or he could mean "depth" of experience--which translates to me to "IP" in your duty title or job description prior to your 04 board. You've got "breadth" because you did something else prior to UPT. He's concerned you won't have "depth" before your 04 board. Heres what u need to get promoted to 04 as a pilot: IP in MWS, leadership job x2, decent strats x3, passing PT score, masters, and SOS and no detractors like referral OPRs. You get those before your 04 PRF is due and youll very likely get a DP. So figure out when you go IPZ to O4 and youll know how many years you have to get those things done. You need about 3 yrs in an MWS to make IP. If you have six years to go, go c21 for three and MWS for three. Less than six? Go MWS first, then OSA instead of AETC. YMMV.

I graduated UPT as a Capt: was told: If you desire promotions to Lt Col: go to an MWS and stay there. I chose c-21 instead and it still worked out for me. again, YMMV. My career has been very non standard: Mx, c21, Mws#1, Mws#2, now c21 again. PM for details.

[Herk Driver]

I was told by my mentor that "If you do an OSA assignment you are going to be an 0-4 with no credibility in a major weapon system as a pilot."

I would agree with your mentor. I was late rated. I've had this conversation a lot. In terms of credibility, he is talking IP in an MWS. You will be an O-4 with little to no credibility and looking at needing to go to school (difficult) or staff (if you plan to make the USAF a career beyond O-4) if you have too few years between now and your PRF. I am talking traditional career paths here. So, if your goal is to fly to 20, like some other threads on here discuss, then you will have no problem either way. If you want to be a squadron commander with some time in the airplane and hands that go with that time, then he is right (again depending on how many years you have to go). You can read the threads on here about people like the former Wing/CC at Pope who was not good in the airplane, not good out of the airplane and all that finally caught up with him.

Learjetter is right with his analysis below. I am assuming that your mentor knows your timeline and is looking at that based on his comments. If he isn't then there is more flexibility than he is telling you.

Are you currently in UPT? Remember that promotion boards to O-4 happen much sooner than they used to so factor that in and make an informed decision.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Herk Driver

[scoobs]

Your mentor is concerned about your 04 chances? The credibility he speaks of could mean IP, or he could mean "depth" of experience--which translates to me to "IP" in your duty title or job description prior to your 04 board. You've got "breadth" because you did something else prior to UPT. He's concerned you won't have "depth" before your 04 board. Heres what u need to get promoted to 04 as a pilot: IP in MWS, leadership job x2, decent strats x3, passing PT score, masters, and SOS and no detractors like referral OPRs. You get those before your 04 PRF is due and youll very likely get a DP. So figure out when you go IPZ to O4 and youll know how many years you have to get those things done. You need about 3 yrs in an MWS to make IP. If you have six years to go, go c21 for three and MWS for three. Less than six? Go MWS first, then OSA instead of AETC. YMMV.

I graduated UPT as a Capt: was told: If you desire promotions to Lt Col: go to an MWS and stay there. I chose c-21 instead and it still worked out for me. again, YMMV. My career has been very non standard: Mx, c21, Mws#1, Mws#2, now c21 again. PM for details.

Will you be going to a desk job after this tour or is it possible to stay flying?

[Learjetter]

I'm in my "desk" job now...only I also fly. Rare, but they are "out there" if you know where to look...but, to answer the question, I should "return to fly" after this job...