Gun Talk

[Guest Johann]

This is my next CCW weapon....I have a Glock 23 that I love, but I fired one of these the other day and holy crap it was awesome. Plus, I dig the old school revolver look.

Perfect for CCW becasue it has a small frame and lots 'o power.

Plus the option of buckshot out of a pistol for bad guys or regular shot for nastly little snakes etc when I am camping...I just really like it.

Stick w/ the G-23. The G-21 is a duty weapon and I carry a G-23 as an off-duty gun.

[M2]

Box

Ain't no way anyone would want to carry one of those as a CCW. Small frame? Compared to what?

I considered one for when I am out hiking in my beloved Texas Hill Country, .410 revolvers make for good snake guns. But the reviews I read where not that impressive, and once I got the chance to hold one in person I knew it was just a novelty gun. Sure, I'd still like to have one, but my list of desired weaponry is long and distinguished. For concealed carry, there is no better option that the XD45ACP...easy to carry, 13+1 of .45ACP, and completely reliable.

Cheers! M2

[Guest smokinrobo]

Since I started this thread I had one question in mind, that I really never asked. What is a good CCW handgun?. I live in a state (MD) where you have to jump through hoops to get aCCW permit, however I was able to get a non-resident CCW permit from VA. So what is good CCW handgun to carry and a holster too. I have a G-17. P226 and SIG PRO in 40 S&W.

Thanks

Edited April 14, 2008 by smokinrobo

[sputnik]

It always comes down to what you like, and personally, for whatever reason I always hated the glock trigger. The XD doesn't have the dual thing does it? And M2, do you have the 40 or 45?

I can possibly sucker my wife into one more gun, but only because we live in bear country. The more I dwell on it the more I know I just have no desire to get a 44 mag, or anything bigger. Just won't enjoy shooting it, and once I leave AK I'll have no reason to. I'm pretty sure that anything smaller than a 44 will just make a bear eat me faster, but I'm trying to convince myself that if I put 13 rounds out of an XD45 maybe I'll have a chance? Guys, help me out?

Look I realize a 45-70 guide gun or a short shotgun with slugs is the only real thing for a bear, but I've hauled long guns in many places and know, when it comes down to it, when I really need it it'll probably be leaning against a tree. I realize guys get the 44 (or 454, 500...) because you can strap it on but... fvck, help me out here, I want an XD not a mag.

[Hacker]

I'm pretty sure that anything smaller than a 44 will just make a bear eat me faster, but I'm trying to convince myself that if I put 13 rounds out of an XD45 maybe I'll have a chance? Guys, help me out?

This always helps me whenever I start to jones about caliber:

[mikew]

Since I started this thread I had one question in mind, that I really never asked. What is a good CCW handgun?. I live in a state (MD) where you have to jump through hoops to get aCCW permit, however I was able to get a non-resident CCW permit from VA. So what is good CCW handgun to carry and a holster too. I have a G-17. P226 and SIR PRO in 40 S&W.

Thanks

Just as a note. Your VA permit will not be honored by MD according to the database I've looked at (https://www.handgunlaw.us/), so you still will need a MD permit to carry there.

Mike

[M2]

Yeah, as Mike pointed out, your VA permit is not recognized by MD, so you can't carry. Here is a map of the states that recognize your permit:

Maryland isn't the most gun-friendly state, and note that WV, MI and FL don't recognize your non-resident permit either.

I have the XD45ACP, as I love the .45 caliber, I consider it the consummate American round and it is nice to be able to use the same ammo with my 1911. Plus, with 13+1 capacity, it's sufficient for most SHTF situations. I don't always carry an extra magazine, as after 14 rounds if the situation hasn't ended I will be working towards my exit ("Gimme three steps, give me three steps towards the door"). It is idiotic to stand your ground and fight, you need to be off the 'x' and on the move! About the only time you do that is when you are defending your home, at which the XD is only to give me something to shoot until I can get to the bigger toys. As the old axiom goes, you can never have enough firepower or ammo!

The XD does have the trigger safety, as well as the 1911-style grip safety. As discussed earlier, they are now available with a thumb safety but I think that is a little too much. I don't have the requirements that the military and law enforcement agencies have for a thumb safety, I want a weapon I can grab and fire.

But the bottom line is you should get the gun you fire well. Caliber is not nearly as important as shot placement, and a well-placed 9mm will be better than a badly-placed .45 shot. But there was an FBI study titled 'Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness' that concluded: "Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet." It is a great report, you can easily find the full report by Googling the name.

There may not be a huge difference in caliber sizes, as Hacker's chart shows; but even that little deviation between calibers can make the difference in between striking a vital organ and not. Plus, you greatly increase your chances by using JHPs, which I will only use in my carry weapon.

Hope that helps!

Cheers! M2

[brickhistory]

Don't know if anyone knows much about the Argie manufacturer Bersa. I didn't/still don't. However, I bought their 'Thunder 45' as a CCW (also have a VA CCW which is, as noted, useless in MD, but then so is much of that state's legislature, but I digress....).

I've put probably 200 rounds out with no problems. I bought the gun as a reward for selling a story and to save my 1911 handed down from my Dad should I be in non-friendly state and get 'caught' carrying in the car. I'd rather lose this one than my heirloom.

The Bersa is a 7+1 and easily carried. It's thick which helps as I have big hands, but might be too much for some.

Anyone knowledgable on the company itself?

https://www.bersafirearmsusa.com/detail_bersa45.php

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

Smokinrobo,

https://www.miltsparks.com/

Milt Sparks has some really nice holsters. I don't own one (yet) but will have one soon. I've got a few bro's here that swear by their Sparks holster. Hopefully I'll be as happy!

As far as pistols go, I currently carry a S&W MP 40. It's a great gun, shoots extremely well, but is a bit bulky for concealed carry.

Anyone else on here use either the Sparks holster or the MP line of pistols?

[Flare]

Due to a recent crime spree of cat burgulars here in the Luke area, I'm thinking it's finally time to purchase a gun to use for self protection. I've shot several guns (not just the mandatory USAF trips to the range) but have never owned one.

So, what (I think) I'm looking for.......a handgun that will work well around the house for self protection. It doesn't have to be one that I could carry concealed with a permit, though if it doubled as that, I suppose it would be a bonus. I don't have a get a 5 dollar P.O.S., but other than going to a range a couple of times with the wife so we can both shoot it, I don't plan to really use it that often (hopefully, I will never need to use it for it's intended purpose!) I don't need to get something that will last through 69,000 shots either.... again, don't plan to use it that much.

Also, for those of you that have small/young kids around the house, what do you use to protect them from the gun? Does any particular one have better "child-proofing" features than others?

So...what's the perfect gun for me, where should I buy it, and how much am I looking at spending for it?

Thanks all!

[M2]

There is an old saying that for home defense, a handgun is only to get you to your shotgun! The best thing would be a combination of both, and decent ones can cost you as little as $850 for everything if you shop around.

I keep all my handguns locked up in a location very close to where I sleep. I have a number pad combination safe that I can open within seconds even when half asleep (I've done it several times). It is very secure and I don't worry about leaving all my guns loaded in there.

My main "go-to" gun is my Springfield Armory XD45ACP, 13+1 rounds and very reliable. One will probably run you about $500-550, but you'll have to shop around. I have a LaserMax "target illuminator" on it but that is an expensive luxury; but it is also my carry weapon so I want it to be highly functional.

In the closet I keep a Mossberg Persuader 12-gauge shotgun loaded with 3" magnum 00 buckshot rounds. Mine is the pistol-gripped model, and I keep it with shells loaded in the tube but none in the chamber, and unlocked, on the top shelf of the closet. The wife and kids know where it is and keep away from it, and only the wife also knows how to operate it (load a shell and take the safety off). I have a 120-lumen SureFire 6P flashlight mounted on it to blind the hell outta whoever I am pointing it at. It is the criminals last warning before they get peppered, and if you haven't ever seen what a 3" magnum 00 Buckshot fires, it is 18 pellets that are almost a quarter-inch wide! Anyhow, the Mossy will cost you about $350-400 and again you might be able to find it cheaper if you try.

Just some suggestions, hope they help!

Cheers! M2

[brabus]

M2 is spot on. Shotguns provide the best home defense. Think about if someone breaks into your house at 3am, you wake up, but still all groggy, blurry eyed, etc. Do you want to use a pistol that requires a good aim, and in a dark house, or would you rather grab a shotgun that literally just has to be aimed in the direction of the guy? You have a much higher chance of missing the guy w/ a pistol in this situation than you do w/ a shotgun. Plus, the shotgun will most likely have a larger scare factor, making the guy give up and get the hell out of there. Secondly, lets say the guy rushes down your hallway at you in your bedroom. It's dark, you see his outlines and you start shooting your pistol...ok a round hits him in the arm and the rest miss (very likely in this situation). You've basically done nothing except piss him off. Now you fire a shotgun down the hallway, I guarantee that guys going to be a bloody pile on your floor.

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

I totaly agree with M2 on this one. Best thing to think about (besides securing your weapons) is that you don't want bullets to go screaming through your walls and hitting anything besides the perp. That said a shotgun is perfect, as described by M2. There are multiple combinations, I shoot a S&W M&P .40 and run for a Remington 870 shottty. There are some under the bed gun safes that you can use as well.

As far as pricing goes, I got my pistol for roughly $520 and the shotgun for $250. And if my the bad guy is still kicking by the time me and my wife get to my gun locker he is fooked, I keep a small arsenal in there! There is no such thing as too many guns!!!

Edit: Federal Ammunition Personal Defense Link

Edited April 29, 2008 by AlphaMikeFoxtrot

[Insubordinate & Churlish]

In the closet I keep a Mossberg Persuader 12-gauge shotgun loaded with 3" magnum 00 buckshot rounds. Mine is the pistol-gripped model, and I keep it with shells loaded in the tube but none in the chamber, and unlocked, on the top shelf of the closet. The wife and kids know where it is and keep away from it, and only the wife also knows how to operate it (load a shell and take the safety off).

Is there any better way of keeping a shotgun close at hand, yet in a slightly safer fashion? The thought of a shotgun that is (pretty much) ready to go left out in the open is kind of scary.

Edited April 29, 2008 by Port Dog

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

Is there any better way of keeping a shotgun close at hand, yet in a slightly safer fashion? The thought of a shotgun that is (pretty much) ready to go left out in the open is kind of scary.

Yeah!

[Guest whyme?]

Shotguns are great if you know nothing you care about is going to be in the cone around the barrel. If you have a child that is coming to see whats going on. Maybe, your dog is behind the guy. The list goes on. Or how about the time you wife is trying to use it?

The shotgun is the best D weapon, but it comes with some thoughts that need to be taken.

Thats Why i recommend 2 guns. Something like a 9-45 for yourself and a .25-380 ( or bigger if she can shoot it) for the wife. I highly recommend the FN 5.7x28mm. 20 rounds of hell. I'd rather her be able to put rounds center mass than try to get a hand cannon on target.

Just some thoughts. Oh to get the wife into shooting. I suggest taking her to the range and showing her how. However, try to shoot a little wide or miss at little. Then slap a sandbag on the rest and let her smoke your placement. Guaranteed hooked for life.

[brickhistory]

Is there any better way of keeping a shotgun close at hand, yet in a slightly safer fashion? The thought of a shotgun that is (pretty much) ready to go left out in the open is kind of scary.

And that is the conundrum (sts). If you need a gun, you need it now. If you want to keep little ones safe, you need it secured.

I was/am a big fan of the shotgun for home defense. Had a SPAS-12 which is the coolest looking shotgun ever! but it really was too long for a home gun (you can either rack it for each shot or lock the foregrip and go semi-auto with it. A wall of OO if you needed crowd control - not so good for a house gun. Agree that the noise factor is probably a good thing for a burglar who just wants to grab and go.

For someone intent on mayhem, who knows? God knows I don't want to find out.

My personal preference (now that my kids are older and understand (by God, they'd better! I've beaten it into them (kidding......mostly) gun safety)) is a .45 with the first round being snakeshot.

"What?! I hear the purists bellow?" I'm hoping that I have more than 6 ft between me and the bad guy and if I miss, I don't frag one of my kids in their bedrooms. If I don't and the bad guy is a distance away, I'm assuming the flash, boom, and any red-hot stinging will make him re-think his immediate plan.

If it doesn't, then the next rounds are for bear.

If the guy is up close and I haven't soiled myself before the first shot, I'm thinking(hoping) I can get the snakeshot and a ball (sts) round into him.

If not, it's gonna be a bad night for the home team.

[M2]

For those who question the use of a shotgun for home defense, get one and go shoot it at 10-15 feet. It is not a blunderbuss, the pattern at that range is very contained, at most 6-8 inches. Plus, shotgun pellets are far less likely to overpenetrate the target like some smaller handgun ammo.

Anyone interested in the "truth" behind ammo and penetration needs to visit the Box 'O Truth web site. Great stuff! And here is the section on shotguns...notice that at 12' the spread was only 3.5" with Remington 2 3/4", #4 Buck, 27 pellets. Smaller pellets than 00 Buck, but more of them (27 vs 18 from a 3" 00 Buck shell). And there is more great info on tests with other shotgun shells...and be sure to read the 'Lessons Learned' at the end.

I seriously doubt you will engage someone at a distance greater that 10-15 feet, and if you are, then you need to consider an assault rifle like an AK-47 which only sets yourself up for all kinds of legal headaches as if the threat was that far away, why did you really need to engage it in the first place?

My Mossberg is 18.5" long, the minimum allowed by law (sawed-off shotguns belong that length are illegal), and with the pistol grip I have the ability to move throughout the house and still keep it pointed in the right direction. Trust me, although I have never had to use it, I have trained and practiced with mine as you should do with any weapon you plan to use for home defense.

And you want Buckshot, as Birdshot is not nearly as effective on a human target. And instead of overpenetration, you might want to worry more about underpenetration (no jokes, please) as given the situation you want to be sure that if the bad guy is hiding behind your couch, you can still "reach out and touch him."

And before someone suggests one of those "snake guns" revolvers that shoot .410 shot, such as the Taurus Judge; they may be good for snakes and maybe pissing off a human assailant; but unless you are loading it with slugs, it really doesn't make for a good self-defense weapon. Plus, they are huge and not easily concealed.

Cheers! M2

[Insubordinate & Churlish]

Coming back home from college + nice tax refund = perfect storm for buying a gun

After M2 suggested it, I got looking into the SA XD series. I read nothing but good things about it and got a good personal review from my dad's Army helo friend. I ended up with an XD9 for a couple of reasons (16+1 capacity among them!). I just got to shoot it today and loved it! I had to shoot it at 25 yards because other people were on the range, so the patterns weren't as good, but I still shot quite well.

I do have slightly smaller hands, so getting them around around the larger frame is a bit harder (sts). The only other thing I have to get used to is the take-down lever. The way I used to hold pistols doesn't work, because now the take-down lever slams into my thumb when the gun recoils. Once I attend some pistol shooting classes, which I intend to do, I'm sure a proper grip will get figured out.

Thanks for the advice M2! (<I didn't buy that.)

-Port Dog

Edit: You leave college for three days and suddenly you can't spell.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Port Dog

[M2]

Port Dog

Great to hear! I am a .45 fan, but the 9mm is just as effective of a round; what's most important is shot placement! The great thing about 9mm is it is cheaper than .45, so you can get more range time in! Once you get more comfortable with the weapon, see if your range has practical shooter clubs that will teach you how to handle it during a more dynamic situation. Too many people think they can shoot because they can hit a paper target while standing and aiming; but it is more important to "get off the X" in a threatening situation and learning to shoot on the run will serve you better if you ever need it.

As for hand size, I also have small hands for my size but the XD was the best double-stacked semi-auto I found. A single-stack handgun such as the 1911 is easier for me to handle, but the flip side is a much-decreased ammo capacity (7+1 vs 13+1 in my XD45). Plus, "plastic" guns are much easlier to conceal carry, at least for me.

Congrats on the purchase! Respect that weapon, treat it well, and it will serve you a lifetime!

Cheers! M2

[Guest wildblue]

"2" on the Springfield XD45. Absolutely great gun. (I have the Compact version.)

Now if only .45 ammo didn't cost so much......

Also, for those of you that are new to concealed carry, may I recommend a couple of sites:

https://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/

The first is a free forum and the second is a paid magazine and forum combo. There is a LOT more to effective and safe concealed carry that what they teach you in the course. Also, the NRA book "Personal Protection Outside the Home" is a really superb reference. Link

Edited May 9, 2008 by wildblue

[Hacker]

Man, every time I see this thread bump up to the top and read about somebody buying a new gun, I curse the fact that I'm living in England right now. Hell, I'd even settle for a tupperware gun over here.

[Guest Boom]

Who do you need to shoot in England?

The English

[Hacker]

Who do you need to shoot in England?

The same thing I shoot at in the States...paper, pop cans, beer bottles, etc.

[Danny Noonin]

The same thing I shoot at in the States...paper, pop cans, beer bottles, etc.

Don't forget communists and french people. Or are they one and the same?