Gun Talk

[slacker]

I think you guys are confused. Many members on this board were absolutely sure that Obama was "pro-gun" before the election, just go back and read. No way does he want to take away your guns. I mean, his past record was all pro-gun, and if it wasn't, Factcheck.org would debunk anything showing otherwise.

So Obama lovers, what say you? When will you admit he is not pro-gun?

[Vertigo]

I think you guys are confused. Many members on this board were absolutely sure that Obama was "pro-gun" before the election, just go back and read. No way does he want to take away your guns. I mean, his past record was all pro-gun, and if it wasn't, Factcheck.org would debunk anything showing otherwise.

So Obama lovers, what say you? When will you admit he is not pro-gun?

I guess it depends on the type of gun: Handguns, rifles, shotguns, sporting guns, typical gun owned by typical U.S. citizen = Pro

Guns that make it easy to kill a building full of schoolkids and outgun the local law enforcement = Anti

[slacker]

So your against your new XD? It has a high capacity? Didn't the Va Tech killer use handguns with high capacities? I guess I missed the enormous increase in all the robberies/murders and violent crimes that happened when the last AWB expired.

[Vertigo]

Not against my XD, and I personally don't understand the ban on a 13 round mag versus a 10 round mag. That portion I don't get...

but the ban on assault rifles that can easily be modded to be fully automatic I do understand. Where do you draw the line- should we also allow the purchase of RPGs (extreme I know but you get the point)?

How much did crime go up during the AWB? If the argument is that only criminals will have those type of guns then there should have been a huge increase in crimes during the AWB... correct?

I think, personally, that a good compromise can be had by both the 2nd amendment supporters and those that want to ban all guns. No one will ever be completely happy but we can get to a good median.

Also had Virgina's gun pruchase laws kept up with Federal laws Cho would of never been able to purchase those weapons due to his mental condition. These laws have since been updated.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Vertigo

[Vetter]

The only way to rule the innocent man is to make him a criminal.

[M2]

OK, I don't want this thread to spiral into a political discussion; so let's make our points and move on.

And here's mine!

History has proven that gun laws do nothing to stop the use of guns in crime! They only affect law-abiding citizens and if anything, gun laws favor the criminal as they decrease the likelihood that a person can defend themselves with a gun if the government restricts their ability to own one (in violation of the Second Amendment).

Once again, go do your homework, a good source of info is Gun Facts web site where they have already done a lot of research on this.

Politicians pass gun laws because they appease the ignorant sheep that believe it will decrease crime, despite proven evidence that actually the opposite occurs. If anything, all gun laws do is cause many law abiding citizens to technically become criminals as believe in their constitutional rights and choose to illegally own a weapon instead of handing it over.

Break break

In one of our CT reports today there was mention of a Walther PP series recall…

Smith & Wesson Corp. is recalling certain pistols that could fire without the trigger being pulled.

The gun maker said it was recalling all Walther PPK and PPK/S pistols that it manufactured from March 21, 2002, until Feb. 3, 2009.

Smith & Wesson posted a recall notice Friday on its Web site and offered additional details in a Securities and Exchange Commission filing Tuesday. The filing cited a problem in the affected pistol models that "may permit a round to be discharged without the trigger being pulled." The Springfield-based company said it was issuing the recall "because any unintended discharge of a firearm has the potential for causing injury."

The online notice and regulatory filing did not say whether any injuries had resulted, and it did not specify how many guns were being recalled.

Anyone who has one of these handguns should go to the recall web site and check their serial numbers against those listed.

Cheers! M2

[Guest Fogo]

I suppose like any other topic these days, its impossible to keep an issue such as this from being political. I'm with M2 though, we don't need one of the best threads in the sq. bar turning into a political debate. It's a thread for people who own/use guns to discuss them, share advice etc etc. We've got plenty of othe threads (or ones that can be started) to debate the issue.

But since everyone else did, my quick two cents: I don't find it cliche' at all to say gun laws only affecting law abiding owners. I see a society being that much more safer when the criminal doesn't know who is armed and who isn't. I'd be curious to know what % of gun crimes were carried out by people who followed all the laws to a T when it came to buying, owning and using the gun.

Back on topic: How is everyone doing on ammo prices and availability lately? Even for a while post election my local Wally World was meeting my needs (sts) but that sure has changed.

[Vertigo]

Back on topic: How is everyone doing on ammo prices and availability lately? Even for a while post election my local Wally World was meeting my needs (sts) but that sure has changed.

Bought the last two boxes of WWB 45 auto yesterday from Wally World. They were low on most ammo except 22. However Cabela's shelves were full of ammo. Prices were better at Cabela's than at Wal-Mart too...

[M2]

Fogo

I hit two WalMarts yesterday on my way home. One had a few boxes of ammo for a couple of calibers, to include two 50-round boxes of WWB in .45 auto. The second has zilch for handguns. The lady behind the counter said she gets the occasional delivery, but it sells quickly.

Cheers! M2

[Vertigo]

I just picked up a Ruger Mark II target .22 cal long rifle pistol for $50. How can I tell what year it was made? Does the serial number play into that at all?

[Timbonez]

I just picked up a Ruger Mark II target .22 cal long rifle pistol for $50. How can I tell what year it was made? Does the serial number play into that at all?

Yes, the serial number will let you know when the gun was manufactured. There are usually websites dedicated to listing serial numbers and dates of manufacture, but these are usually only for those classic type guns (i.e. Colt 1911, S&W Model 27, etc.). I don't know if you'll find much luck online. You could try finding a forum dedicated to Ruger .22 fans. I'm sure they're out there. If all else fails, I know a lot of manufacturers can/will tell you when the gun was made (sometimes for a fee) if you contact them. Hope this helps.

[BigFreddie]

Not against my XD, and I personally don't understand the ban on a 13 round mag versus a 10 round mag. That portion I don't get...

but the ban on assault rifles that can easily be modded to be fully automatic I do understand. Where do you draw the line- should we also allow the purchase of RPGs (extreme I know but you get the point)?

How much did crime go up during the AWB? If the argument is that only criminals will have those type of guns then there should have been a huge increase in crimes during the AWB... correct?

I think, personally, that a good compromise can be had by both the 2nd amendment supporters and those that want to ban all guns. No one will ever be completely happy but we can get to a good median.

Also had Virgina's gun pruchase laws kept up with Federal laws Cho would of never been able to purchase those weapons due to his mental condition. These laws have since been updated.

There are a lot of things in place to ensure that guns are not easily modified to full auto. ARs have a shelf in them that does not allow you to drop in full auto parts, AKs are missing holes in the receiver, and the HK 9x series have a bunch of things changed so they are not easily converted. That being said, anyone with a mill in their garage with an iota of technical background and knowledge could change these things easily enough - but - GASP - they don't because they are law abiding citizens. Furthermore, there are provisions that allow people to buy RPGs and machine guns and silencers and short barreled rifles and shotguns. To get your RPG all you need to do is work with the ATF and get a tax stamp for a Destructive Device - $200 plus the cost of the weapon. Each rocket would also incur a $200 tax stamp so the cost would become extreme very fast.

I was reading something yesterday about Pelosi saying that a new AWB wasn't even on the radar and that we should enforce the existing laws out there. I would actually have to agree with her on this. Why do I, a law adibing citizen who pays my taxes and serves the country become an instant criminal because there is someone out there who is insane and wants to kill a bunch of folks? Does my owning these dreaded "assault weapons" make me a threat to society? I think politicians like gun bans because it really looks like they are doing something. If they want to decrease deaths in the country outlaw cars and doctors...

And all this when we were starting to see prices creep down and supply start to come back up... Here we go again...

[M2]

I was reading something yesterday about Pelosi saying that a new AWB wasn't even on the radar and that we should enforce the existing laws out there. I would actually have to agree with her on this.

I too agree with this, and most Americans do as well. Surveys in 1999 and 2000 by CBS, Zogby, Time, the Associated Press, ABC, Washington Post, and CNN all showed the majority of Americans believe enforcing existing laws is the best solution to gun violence. None of these surveys showed a majority favoring new or stricter gun control laws.

However, I am very doubtful that the current administration will settle for this solution, as it does not show they are taking "action" against "assualt weapons," a term which is vague in and of itself.

No, I believe Pelosi is trying to put the pro-gun lobby off the scent of their true intentions. It is basic deception, and something commonly used in politics. Don't fall for it.

Cheers! M2

[MilitaryToFinance]

Well then Pelosi better tell the administration that she is in charge not them...

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban

The Obama administration will seek to reinstate the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 during the Bush administration, Attorney General Eric Holder said today.

"As President Obama indicated during the campaign, there are just a few gun-related changes that we would like to make, and among them would be to reinstitute the ban on the sale of assault weapons," Holder told reporters.

Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.

"I think that will have a positive impact in Mexico, at a minimum." Holder said at a news conference on the arrest of more than 700 people in a drug enforcement crackdown on Mexican drug cartels operating in the U.S.

Mexican government officials have complained that the availability of sophisticated guns from the United States have emboldened drug traffickers to fight over access routes into the U.S.

A State Department travel warning issued Feb. 20, 2009, reflected government concerns about the violence.

"Some recent Mexican army and police confrontations with drug cartels have resembled small-unit combat, with cartels employing automatic weapons and grenades," the warning said. "Large firefights have taken place in many towns and cities across Mexico, but most recently in northern Mexico, including Tijuana, Chihuahua City and Ciudad Juarez."

At the news conference today, Holder described his discussions with his Mexican counterpart about the recent spike in violence.

"I met yesterday with Attorney General Medina Mora of Mexico, and we discussed the unprecedented levels of violence his country is facing because of their enforcement efforts," he said.

Holder declined to offer any time frame for the reimplementation of the assault weapons ban, however.

"It's something, as I said, that the president talked about during the campaign," he said. "There are obviously a number of things that are -- that have been taking up a substantial amount of his time, and so, I'm not sure exactly what the sequencing will be."

[backseatdriver]

I've read through most of the thread (don't have time for all 37 pages!) but haven't yet seen my situation addressed.

I'm looking to buy my first handgun and am a complete gun noob. As far as experience level, I haven't really shot other than M9 once a year. My primary use would be target practice at the range, with a secondary of home defense (moving to Clovis - which will probably result in an eventual shotgun purchase based on the discussion earlier in the thread).

I'm leaning towards 9mm since that seems to be a good balance between my priorities. So the question is - what should I get? What's the best way for a new gun owner to get their hands on/shoot different types prior to buying? Or are you pretty much left with buy what feels good in your hand (sts) and you're SOL if you hate it when you get it to the range?

The only buddy of mine that's a big gun guy (and has various models to shoot) is deployed for the next 4 months which is longer than I'm wanting to wait to buy.

From what I gather the major contenders are Glock, Springfield, Sig, HK, with Beretta bringing up the rear. I'm looking to keep the purchase in the <$600 range. Suggestions?

Edited February 28, 2009 by backseatdriver

[busdriver]

backseat, go to a local range that rents guns and try out a Glock and an XD. Whichever "feels" better to you is your answer. 9mm is a fine choice and won't leave you under gunned in any way. The arguments in caliber between 9mm, .40 or .45 are largely a red herring. ALL handgun rounds are crappy, get used to the fact that you will have to shoot a bad guy many times with a handgun, so pick something you can shoot rapidly and accurately. Practicing head-shots is a good thing.

[Guest ATC]

I've read through most of the thread (don't have time for all 37 pages!) but haven't yet seen my situation addressed.

I'm looking to buy my first handgun and am a complete gun noob. As far as experience level, I haven't really shot other than M9 once a year. My primary use would be target practice at the range, with a secondary of home defense (moving to Clovis - which will probably result in an eventual shotgun purchase based on the discussion earlier in the thread).

I'm leaning towards 9mm since that seems to be a good balance between my priorities. So the question is - what should I get? What's the best way for a new gun owner to get their hands on/shoot different types prior to buying? Or are you pretty much left with buy what feels good in your hand (sts) and you're SOL if you hate it when you get it to the range?

The only buddy of mine that's a big gun guy (and has various models to shoot) is deployed for the next 4 months which is longer than I'm wanting to wait to buy.

From what I gather the major contenders are Glock, Springfield, Sig, HK, with Beretta bringing up the rear. I'm looking to keep the purchase in the <$600 range. Suggestions?

Just my $0.02 - don't waste time looking at Beretta. The others you mention are all worth a look. I am an HK fan myself, but Glock, Sig and Springfield are all fine guns. Try them out - different brands and different calibers. Whichever is easiest for you to shoot the most accurately, the most consistently is your winner. How it feels in your hand is a part of that. Go to a range and try them all.

[Guest zookrider]

Just my $0.02 - don't waste time looking at Beretta. The others you mention are all worth a look. I am an HK fan myself, but Glock, Sig and Springfield are all fine guns. Try them out - different brands and different calibers. Whichever is easiest for you to shoot the most accurately, the most consistently is your winner. How it feels in your hand is a part of that. Go to a range and try them all.

Beretta makes more than just the 92. The PX4 Storm series are genuinely innovative and have the same features as any of the others plus a manual safety (if you're into that sort of thing). The Beretta 92/96 is still a fine pistol, though. Reliable, accurate, and with Beretta's relatively new military deal, very affordable right now. If it fits you, you'll never be at a disadvantage due to that pistol. Plus it trains you on what the military issues the vast majority of officers.

Other great companies you didn't mention are Smith and Wesson (the M&P is damn comfortable in the hand), CZ (terrific), Walther, Ruger (very price competitive), FN, and to a lesser extent, Taurus. Any of those plus the ones you named will sell you a very good product in a full-size pistol suitable to a new shooter. Even Springfield.

Moral of the story is go to the store, handle a bunch of stuff in your price range, and if you can rent some of the contenders, do so. For the most part, you won't go wrong choosing what feels right.

[M2]

BSD

I would recommend either renting or borrowing handguns to shoot to determine which feels best. A second option is to go to a gun show where you can handle (but not fire) numerous models. You will get a good idea of what you like and dislike. Once you've got a short list, go online and do some research. I will save you some time on the Springfield XD series as it is like by nearly everyone who shoots one. Personally, where I love my M1911s, they are a little less reliable and, since they are single stacked, hold less rounds so I rarely use carry one for self-defense. I would also steer clear of smaller M1911s as in my experience they tend to have even more problems with FTF/FTEs than their normal-sized brethren.

As for caliber, that is an individual choice. Some like larger, slower rounds such as the .45 ACP, others like faster, smaller rounds such as the 9mm. But I would recommend buying something that is common, i.e. skip the 10mm or .45 GAP. For semi-autos, 9mm, .40 and .45 are the wisest choices in my opinion.

Lastly, talk to gun owners. Most likely there are a lot in your squadron, but some people don't talk about guns as much as others. Where I work now there is a large number of gun owners, and we commonly talk or go shooting. Some people are experienced, others less so, but everybody helps everyone and it has been a great way for me to shoot a lot of guns I normally wouldn't have had the opportunity to shoot. Also, I've won several people over to the XD simply by letting them fire mine. If you are ever in the San Antonio area, let me know and we can meet up at the range.

Hope that helps, I am sure others have some more good advice to add...

Cheers! M2

[Guest Fogo]

Backseat,

I can't really offer too much that everyone else already hasn't... I agree that you need to rent/borrow ones that you are interested in and check out a local gun show etc. When talking Glock, Springfield, Sig, you're talking quality so no worries there.

I'll say this though, everyone has different tastes but don't worry that there is only ONE gun for you. There will be many that you don't like, but many that you do. I myself own an XD, but love my buddy's Glock. If it is a realiable, quality firearm that you feel comfortable with, you won't regret it. ...Besides, if you find something else you like, it just means you buy another gun!

Let us know what you decide!

Edited February 28, 2009 by Fogo

[Vertigo]

I got to agree with M2. I wouldn't trade my XD for anything else. I took the wife out yesterday afternoon to show her the basics of using a handgun- she's from Australia and has never handled a gun before.

She was a little nervous the first 2 or 3 rounds fired... from then on it was like she'd been doing it her entire life. She put 8 rounds from a 13 round clip thru a paper plate at 20 yards her first go around.

All up we fired 250 rounds and didn't have one misfeed/jam/whatever. Worked like a champ.

I think I got her hooked cause on the ride home she said to me "I can see how this could become very addicting." I just smiled on the inside.

[old crow]

I have both Glocks and XDs. I like both and think you can't wrong with either, so pick what feels right.

Both Glock and XDs offer LE/AD military discounts. You have to purchase from an authorized dealer, but the savings are significant. For example, I just picked up a new Glock 26 for $435. XD prices are similar.

[cragspider]

Both Glock and XDs offer LE/AD military discounts. You have to purchase from an authorized dealer, but the savings are significant. XD prices are similar.

Ok I have figured out that I want the XD. I know that Glock and Sig offer mil discounts, but didn't know that SA did. How do you go about getting the discount applied? Just show them your mil id? or ask about the mil discount? Sorry if this sounds alittle newbie but just trying to get the best deal when I get the gun. By the way went to the gun show in Abilene today and most if not all the XD's were a little or way over priced.

[Vertigo]

Ok I have figured out that I want the XD. I know that Glock and Sig offer mil discounts, but didn't know that SA did. How do you go about getting the discount applied? Just show them your mil id? or ask about the mil discount? Sorry if this sounds alittle newbie but just trying to get the best deal when I get the gun. By the way went to the gun show in Abilene today and most if not all the XD's were a little or way over priced.

What prices were they offering? I paid $570 for mine a couple weeks ago and that was on the low end of the average I've been finding. Don't know about the mil discount- I asked at Cabela's where I bought mine and they said no discount.

[Guest Fogo]

Ok I have figured out that I want the XD. I know that Glock and Sig offer mil discounts, but didn't know that SA did. How do you go about getting the discount applied? Just show them your mil id? or ask about the mil discount? Sorry if this sounds alittle newbie but just trying to get the best deal when I get the gun. By the way went to the gun show in Abilene today and most if not all the XD's were a little or way over priced.

I was at a gun show in Perry, GA today and there were plenty of XD and XD Ms... As far as the XDs went, I guess I'd have to say most were between the $525-595 range. Don't hold me to it though; I was just casually browsing.

Speaking of the gun show; I saw a few Hi-Point pistols today. Anybody know anything about these? They were all $200 or less and felt like bricks when I picked them up. I'm definately not think of neglecting my XD for a lesser known gun; but was just curious about them. Are they just in the market of offering some modest handguns to those just starting out?