Gun Talk

[slacker]

And there was much rejoicing-

EPA rejects attempt to regulate lead in bullets after NRA protests

EPA Surrenders to NRA on Gun Control Issue

By Paul Bedard

Posted: August 27, 2010

In a swift and unexpected decision, the Environmental Protection Agency today rejected a petition from environmental groups to ban the use of lead in bullets and shotgun shells, claiming it doesn't have jurisdiction to weigh on the controversial Second Amendment issue. The decision came just hours after the Drudge Report posted stories from Washington Whispers and the Weekly Standard about how gun groups were fighting the lead bullet ban.

The EPA had planned to solicit public responses to the petition for two months, but this afternoon issued a statement rejecting a 100-page request from the Center for Biological Diversity, the American Bird Conservancy, and three other groups for a ban on lead bullets, shot, and fishing sinkers. The agency is still considering what to do about sinkers.

The decision was a huge victory for the National Rifle Association which just seven days ago asked that the EPA reject the petition, suggesting that it was a back door attempt to limit hunting and impose gun control. It also was a politically savvy move to take gun control off the table as the Democrats ready for a very difficult midterm election.

The NRA has spent two years tracking down rumors that the Obama administration wants to impose gun and ammo bans on the public, but hasn't found anything credible. While the lead ban was viewed initially as a substantial chance for the administration to move into challenging the Second Amendment, the swift rejection by the EPA settled concerns inside NRA headquarters today.

Here is what the EPA just sent Washington Whispers:

EPA Denies Petition Calling for Lead Ammunition Ban

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency today denied a petition calling for a ban on the production and distribution of lead hunting ammunition. EPA sent a letter to the petitioners explaining the rejection – that letter can be found here: https://www.epa.gov/oppt/chemtest/pubs/sect21.html

Steve Owens, EPA assistant administrator for the Office of Chemical Safety and Pollution Prevention, issued the following statement on the agency's decision:

"EPA today denied a petition submitted by several outside groups for the agency to implement a ban on the production and distribution of lead hunting ammunition. EPA reached this decision because the agency does not have the legal authority to regulate this type of product under the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) – nor is the agency seeking such authority.

"This petition, which was submitted to EPA at the beginning of this month, is one of hundreds of petitions submitted to EPA by outside groups each year. This petition was filed under TSCA, which requires the agency to review and respond within 90 days.

"EPA is taking action on many fronts to address major sources of lead in our society, such as eliminating childhood exposures to lead; however, EPA was not and is not considering taking action on whether the lead content in hunting ammunition poses an undue threat to wildlife.

"As there are no similar jurisdictional issues relating to the agency's authority over fishing sinkers, EPA – as required by law – will continue formally reviewing a second part the petition related to lead fishing sinkers.

"Those wishing to comment specifically on the fishing tackle issue can do so by visiting https://www.regulations.gov. EPA will consider comments that are submitted by September 15."

[Timbonez]

Colt released info earlier this year about their 100th anniversary 1911s. I believe there are three versions, with the first being unavailable to the public. The second has engravings and such and a limited run of 750 pistols. The third is a M1911 repro, much like their O1918, but with unique rollmarks that commemorate 100 years of 1911 goodness. Reading on other forums, it looks like they will be available starting in November. Production for the third version will continue until November 2011. It was mentioned as long as an order was made before that deadline it will be produced.

Linky

Looks like I'll be getting one and maybe one of these, as long as my bank heist is successful.

[schokie]

This is what I get for procrastinating on buying an M1. Thanks! I love how no one wants to take the credit for making the decision.

Fox News Link

Obama Administration Reverses Course, Forbids Sale of 850,000 Antique Rifles

By Maxim Lott

Published September 01, 2010

The South Korean government, in an effort to raise money for its military, wants to sell nearly a million antique M1 rifles that were used by U.S. soldiers in the Korean War to gun collectors in America.

The Obama administration approved the sale of the American-made rifles last year. But it reversed course and banned the sale in March – a decision that went largely unnoticed at the time but that is now sparking opposition from gun rights advocates.

A State Department spokesman said the administration's decision was based on concerns that the guns could fall into the wrong hands.

"The transfer of such a large number of weapons -- 87,310 M1 Garands and 770,160 M1 Carbines -- could potentially be exploited by individuals seeking firearms for illicit purposes," the spokesman told FoxNews.com.

"We are working closely with our Korean allies and the U.S. Army in exploring alternative options to dispose of these firearms."

Gun control advocates praised the Obama administration for taking security seriously.

"Guns that can take high-capacity magazines are a threat to public safety," said Dennis Henigan of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "Even though they are old, these guns could deliver a great amount of firepower. So I think the Obama administration's concerns are well-taken."

But gun rights advocates point out that possessing M1 rifles is legal in the United States -- M1s are semi-automatics, not machine guns, meaning the trigger has to be pulled every time a shot is fired -- and anyone who would buy a gun from South Korea would have to go through the standard background check.

"Any guns that retail in the United States, of course, including these, can only be sold to someone who passes the National Instant Check System," said David Kopel, research director at the conservative Independence Institute. "There is no greater risk from these particular guns than there is from any other guns sold in the United States."

M1 carbines can hold high-capacity ammunition clips that allow dozens of rounds to be fired before re-loading, but Chris Cox, chief lobbyist for the National Rifle Association, noted that is true about any gun in which an ammunition magazine can be inserted -- including most semi-automatics.

"Anything that accepts an external magazine could accept a larger capacity magazine," Cox said.

"But the average number of rounds fired in the commission of a crime is somewhere between 1 and 2 … this issue just shows how little the administration understands about guns."

He called the administration's decision "a de facto gun ban, courtesy of Hillary Clinton's State Department."

Asked why the M1s pose a threat, the State Department spokesman referred questions to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. ATF representatives said they would look into the question Monday afternoon, but on Wednesday they referred questions to the Justice Department. DOJ spokesman Dean Boyd referred questions back to the State Department.

According to the ATF Guidebook on Firearms Importation, it would normally be legal to import the M1s because they are more than 50 years old, meaning they qualify as "curios or relics." But because the guns were given to South Korea by the U.S. government, they fall under a special category that requires permission from the State Department before any sale.

Kopel said that he hopes the State Department spokesman's statement that it is working to "dispose" of the guns does not mean they want to melt them down.

"It seems to have this implication of destruction, which would be tremendously wasteful," he said. "These are guns that should be in the hands of American citizens for marksmanship and safety training."

Asked whether melting the guns down would be a good option, Henigan said: "Why let them into the country in the first place? If there is a legally sufficient way to keep them out, we think it's perfectly reasonable to do so."

Past administrations have also grappled with the issue of large-scale gun imports.

The Clinton administration blocked sales of M1s and other antiquated military weapons from the Philippines, Turkey and Pakistan. It also ended the practice of reselling used guns owned by federal agencies, ordering that they be melted down instead.

In contrast, 200,000 M1 rifles from South Korea were allowed to be sold in the U.S. under the Reagan administration in 1987.

A decision like that would be better for everyone, Cox said.

"M1s are used for target practice. For history buffs, they're highly collectible. We're going to continue to make sure that this backdoor effort that infringes not only on lawful commerce but on the Second Amendment is rectified."

Henigan disagrees.

"They clearly were used as military guns, and the fact that they likely can take high-capacity magazines makes them a special safety concern," he said.

The White House referred questions on the issue to the Pentagon, which referred questions to the U.S. Embassy in South Korea, which deferred back to the State Department.

[Beaver]

What a bunch of dumbasses.

[Nineline]

Well, I finally received all the parts I ordered and finished my Spike's AR build. I initially was going to go with a mid-length 16" upper, but the one I ordered was damaged in shipping and Aim Surplus didn't have any more, so instead of patiently waiting for them to get more in stock (haven't had them since!) I exchanged it for a carbine length lightweight upper. I then bought the lower directly from Spikes ( a little to quick to pull the trigger, I could've saved $20 by buying it through Brownells instead) and the Magpul MOE lower kit from Palmetto State Armory. I also bought a Troy DOA rear BUIS and a few PMags from Aim when I got the upper.

All told, I spent about $920 on all the parts including shipping and am really happy with the outcome. When I refill my wallet, my wishlist for future purchases include an EOTech EXPS 2 red dot sight, a sling, and a MOE handguard with front grip.

-9-

Edited September 3, 2010 by Nineline

[Nineline]

On a slightly different topic, I stopped by my local gun shop the other day and saw that they had a new shipment of Mosin Nagant 91/30s in. They had the hex receiver and suspiciously "matching" numbers -- i.e. a few parts had non-matching serials that were stricken through with the matching serial stamped underneath.

Overall, they looked to be in good condition with marked but unbroken stocks and came with a sling, double mag pouch, bayonet, and a few cleaning accessories.

The dealer was selling them for $100 each out the door.

What are your guys' thoughts? I can't tell if this is market price or an actually good deal. Truthfully, the only reason I haven't picked one up yet is because they're everywhere and I don't know the good ones from the trash. If this is truly a good deal, I'd hate to pass this up and see that these are selling for $300+ five years from now.

-9-

[Timbonez]

Well, I finally received all the parts I ordered and finished my Spike's AR build. I initially was going to go with a mid-length 16" upper, but the one I ordered was damaged in shipping and Aim Surplus didn't have any more, so instead of patiently waiting for them to get more in stock (haven't had them since!) I exchanged it for a carbine length lightweight upper. I then bought the lower directly from Spikes ( a little to quick to pull the trigger, I could've saved $20 by buying it through Brownells instead) and the Magpul MOE lower kit from Palmetto State Armory. I also bought a Troy DOA rear BUIS and a few PMags from Aim when I got the upper.

All told, I spent about $920 on all the parts including shipping and am really happy with the outcome. When I refill my wallet, my wishlist for future purchases include an EOTech EXPS 2 red dot sight, a sling, and a MOE handguard with front grip.

-9-

Nice rifle! For roughly the same price, you have a top notch rifle that's much better than the more "popular" brands that the average American would buy. I would have waited for the mid-length or gone somewhere else for it though, especially with a 16" barrel, but you did good regardless.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Timbonez

[M2]

On a slightly different topic, I stopped by my local gun shop the other day and saw that they had a new shipment of Mosin Nagant 91/30s in. They had the hex receiver and suspiciously "matching" numbers -- i.e. a few parts had non-matching serials that were stricken through with the matching serial stamped underneath.

Overall, they looked to be in good condition with marked but unbroken stocks and came with a sling, double mag pouch, bayonet, and a few cleaning accessories.

The dealer was selling them for $100 each out the door.

What are your guys' thoughts? I can't tell if this is market price or an actually good deal. Truthfully, the only reason I haven't picked one up yet is because they're everywhere and I don't know the good ones from the trash. If this is truly a good deal, I'd hate to pass this up and see that these are selling for $300+ five years from now.

-9-

For a hexed Mosin 91/30, that's a good price. The forced-matching numbers is not an issue, but it is better if the bolt matches the receiver...

The accessories are the standard you get with Mosins.

For more info, hit 7.62x54.net

I've got quite a few Mosins, I prefer the carbines (M44, M38, etc) but the rifles have so much history behind them that it's easy to get a bad case of "Mosinitis!"

Plus, they're a fucking blast to shoot!

Cheers! M2

Addendum: OK, I just saw in the SOG flier that they have hexed M91/30s for $79; but once you add in hand-select ($10), shipping ($15-20) and any FFL transfer fees (unless you have an 03 FFL), I still think you are will do better in the long run buying it where you can look through and select one at the pawn shop.

Edited September 3, 2010 by M2
Addendum

[Nineline]

Well, I stopped by the gun store again to check out the 91/30's I mentioned previously, and couldn't justify pulling the trigger. I think I would have if they had a carbine version, but no luck there. With that said, I still have a thirst for a Soviet com-bloc war machine, so I now have another idea.

I've had a Ruger Mini-Thirty SS in 7.62x39 for about 10 years now and it's in great shape. I got it new on a trade (I orginally wanted a Mini-14 instead, but the dealer didn't have one of those at the time of the trade) and have no issues with it. However, I believe that the Ruger isn't any more accurate or reliable than a WASR-10 or Arsenal's Saiga and I love the amount of AK stuff there is compared to the Ruger. As an added bonus, if I can pull a hundred or two in cash out of the deal, that'll help resupply my ammo stockpile even more.

I'm not too smart on AK's (never owned one) so I really don't know what to look/ask for at the gun show this weekend. Anyway, I'm looking for some advice and opinions on what to do.

-9-

[M2]

-9-

Tons of good AK web sites out there, here are a few...

• Warrior Talk
  
• The AK Forum
  
• AK-47 on XD Talk
  
• GunCo
  
• The AK Files
  

So plenty of places to do research. In a nutshell, you can start out with a Romanian WASR-10 for around $350-399 but most of those require work to get functioning well. They'll shoot as-is, but they won't be great shooters. After that you can pick up a Chinese Norinco, a Yugo which will be heavier and more sturdy due to the thicker receiver (for between $400-500, or all the way up to an Arsenal-built Russian Legion shop custom such as the SGL20 I picked up in July for $645. After that you get into the pure custom build world (e.g. Jim Fuller's) at whatever you can afford.

I would steer clear of the WASRs; and unless you are going to hump it around a lot, a Yugo underfold would be a good starting point. Just be careful of anything built by Century, especially if ordering online; as they are famous for canted front sights. AKs have the earned reputation of working under any condition, and you can abuse them and they'll still run like a top; but it still pays to keep 'em clean and oiled.

Hope that helps!

Oh, and you still should've snagged one of those Mosins! They are a blast to shoot! Think Enemy At The Gate!

Cheers! M2

[Nineline]

I would steer clear of the WASRs; and unless you are going to hump it around a lot, a Yugo underfold would be a good starting point. Just be careful of anything built by Century, especially if ordering online; as they are famous for canted front sights.

I did a little browsing on GunBroker, and it seems the majority of Yugo underfolders are made by Century. Are these plagued by the canted front sights as well? Is there a specific brand of Yugo that is superior?

-9-

[BigFreddie]

I did a little browsing on GunBroker, and it seems the majority of Yugo underfolders are made by Century. Are these plagued by the canted front sights as well? Is there a specific brand of Yugo that is superior?

-9-

I don't think an underfolder would be the first AK I'd pick up... They have a high-CDI factor but they are not comfortable to shoot.

I have 13 AKs right now - if I could only have one it would be an Arsenal 107CR. They have 16" barrels while the originals have 12.5" barrels - if you ever decide to, you could easily chop the barrel (with proper ATF paperwork) and have a very handy easy to shoot rifle. They have a side folding stock made of polymer - they feel just like a normal fixed stock when you shoot but you get the reduced overall length when it is folded. You can add any of the standard accessories to it - I prefer the Ultimak railed gas tube with an Aimpoint T-1 and a Surefire G2 in a Vltor mount - covers all your tactical bases in one shot... I have heard of very few issues with these from Arsenal - there were several periods where Arsenal put out some guns with canted front sights which they would fix under warranty - but the CR models never seemed to have that issue. They also make the same style of gun - 106CR in 5.56. The only drawback is that the 5.56 mags are harder to find and more expensive than the hugely mass produced 7.62 mags.

Following the Arsenal 107CR would be the Arsenal 107FR which is essentially the same with a longer barrel. The Russian imports Arsenal has now are very, very good options as long as you can live without the folding stock.

BF

[Nineline]

Luck was good to me yesterday! I ran across a deal for a new in box Arsenal SLR-107CR plus a bayonet and seven mags (1 5rd factory, 3 metal 20rd, and 3 metal 30rd) for $815 shipped! Considering that I was looking at spending $650-700 on a SLG20, this seems like a great deal. (Thanks BigFreddie and M2!)

Now, my next hurdle is to sell my Mini Thirty at the gun show today and not get ripped off. Stock pics below of the SLR-107CR.

-9-

[M2]

Nice! I'm not a big fan of the sidefolders; but it is true to the AK-103.

Good snag at that price!

Cheers! M2

[Beaver]

Buy a CMP Garand or no?

[Timbonez]

Buy a CMP Garand or no?

If you don't have one already, you're wrong. CMP is the way to go.

[M2]

Buy a CMP Garand or no?

Yes, most definitely.

That said, I don't have one; but that's a personal decision and not an indicator that one might not join my collection in the future...

Cheers! M2

[HeloDude]

First time posting on the gun thread here--just recently (last 6 months) have gotten into the whole gun thing with some help from my brothers and good friends and have bought a few pistols in the last 2 months.

I just recently bought a Polish Milled 1960 AK for $650. I did a lot of research before jumping on what I determined to be a fairly good deal as I got to inspect the weapon first hand and thus of course did not have to pay the FFL transfer fee. It came with 3 magazines and a bayonet (not sure if that's standard whenever you buy an AK). A lot of forums/reviews I read showed most people pretty pleased with this AK from Century (Century also offers a warranty which is good).

Anybody have good advice on where to get 7.62 x 39 ammo for cheap? I can't wait to start putting rounds through this rifle!

[disgruntledemployee]

Buy a CMP Garand or no?

Yes. CMP will cost just under 600 and take about 3 months. Last year I got a service grade that's in impeccable shape. Its a post-WWII production, but that's fine for me as I want to shoot it besides having it look nice on the wall. Just added an unissued M5A1 bayonet (CMP)and leather sling. I'll post a pic this weekend.

Out

[Royal]

First time posting on the gun thread here--just recently (last 6 months) have gotten into the whole gun thing with some help from my brothers and good friends and have bought a few pistols in the last 2 months.

I just recently bought a Polish Milled 1960 AK for $650. I did a lot of research before jumping on what I determined to be a fairly good deal as I got to inspect the weapon first hand and thus of course did not have to pay the FFL transfer fee. It came with 3 magazines and a bayonet (not sure if that's standard whenever you buy an AK). A lot of forums/reviews I read showed most people pretty pleased with this AK from Century (Century also offers a warranty which is good).

Anybody have good advice on where to get 7.62 x 39 ammo for cheap? I can't wait to start putting rounds through this rifle!

That's a fine shooting rifle. There are probably half a dozen posts on this page with online ammo recommendations. Let us know what you get.

[M2]

That's a fine shooting rifle. There are probably half a dozen posts on this page with online ammo recommendations. Let us know what you get.

Yeah, 89 pages is getting to be a bit too much to muddle through looking for info. Maybe if a few people asked, BaseOps would set up a subsection of the Squadron Bar forum for firearms! Just don't tell him you got the idea from me!

Oh, and our local BXtra actually carries 7.62x39, but the price ain't that great. Still, it's nice to know it's there; and I may just buy some anyhow to let AAFES know that there are customers for the stuff.

Cheers! M2

[Nineline]

Anybody have good advice on where to get 7.62 x 39 ammo for cheap? I can't wait to start putting rounds through this rifle!

My two favorite online places to buy 7.62x39 is Aim Surplus and SGammo.com. Aim is especially nice if you're buying a case or more due to the quantity discounts.

I'll also add a plug for Cabela's (the retail store, not online). I went there a few weeks ago and found that they're selling Tula white box for $4/box, and then they took 10% off that with the military ID. In this day and age, $3.59/box of 20 is a steal!

-9-

[Right Seat Driver]

Buy a CMP Garand or no?

Yes! Buy it now! I just got my HRA Special Grade that was made in 1955. It looks like no more than 100 rounds or so have been shot through it.

A word of caution with M1s. I wouldn't recommend shooting a round greater than 180 grains as the operating rod can get damaged.

[JarheadBoom]

CMP Garand?

HELL YES!

If you get the urge to shoot ammo other than surplus Greek HXP or M2, get yourself an adjustable gas plug to avoid op rod abuse/bending/breakage.

[M2]

I am not sure why this thread was locked, but I am looking into it and will have it back open as soon as possible!

I appreciate everyone's patience and understanding while I get this resolved.

Cheers! M2