Gun Talk

[M2]

Brick, great review, thanks! I like the P22, and have contemplated picking it or a Sig Mosquito up one day but I still have several other firearms on my "wish list" to acquired before I do so (such as a Yugo M76 and a PSL). Twenty-twos are fun and inexpensive to shoot, but my lackluster experiences with the GSG-5 I got has made me realize that the round has its drawbacks. Still, for range practice or new shooters, it is a great round.

Cheers! M2

[spudsmac]

I searched but couldn't find anything on it, but what's your take on ccw in a someone's house? On one hand, it defeats the purpose of concealed carry if you don't carry anywhere and take the mentality that "it's a good area of town" and leave it in your car. Do you ask permission to carry in someone's house (defeats the theory of ccw)? Or do you just use have a DADT policy in regards to it?

[Timbonez]

Brick, I always enjoy your reviews. Great job. I'm going to have to start writing some of my own for my arsenal.

Spud, are you new to concealed carry and asking for advice?

Edited December 5, 2010 by Timbonez

[M2]

I searched but couldn't find anything on it, but what's your take on ccw in a someone's house? On one hand, it defeats the purpose of concealed carry if you don't carry anywhere and take the mentality that "it's a good area of town" and leave it in your car. Do you ask permission to carry in someone's house (defeats the theory of ccw)? Or do you just use have a DADT policy in regards to it?

Spudsmac

I don't know what state you're in, but here in Texas unless the property owner informs you beforehand that they don't allow you to conceal carry (which normally is in the form of a 30.06 sign), you're good to go. However, if they ask you must respond honestly, at which point all the can do is ask you to leave which you are required to do otherwise it is criminal trespassing with a weapon.

So it's pretty much DADT, but be sure to check your state laws to ensure it doesn't state otherwise.

Cheers! M2

[spudsmac]

I know the legality of it, I was just asking for opinions of whether or not it's out of line. I have noticed that on different forums online, most people tend to agree one way or another; it's just dependent on what the site's purpose is (ex. ccw site vs car enthusiast site)

[M2]

Well, in that's case dependent. If you feel it will be an issue, then leave the firearm at home. If you believe it wouldn't be a problem, then carry and don't mention it. I don't think there is any need for permission, you should know who is so anti-gun that they would be offended by your carrying.

A quick story , my German uncle was visiting us here in Texas. We were in Bandera ("The Cowboy Capital of the World") having breakfast when he decided to quite loudly vocalize his anti-gun viewpoints. I told him that wasn't the wisest of ideas, and he simmered down; but I think if he knew I had a .45 tucked into my back he'd probably lecture me about it as well!

Cheers! M2

[spudsmac]

Make sense. Thanks!

[Square]

Another Mosin-Nagant post...

Got an email from Buds this morning. Apparently they're running a promotion on Russian Mosin's.

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=411540201

What say the hoi polloi? I know these kinds of deals pop up periodically, but I've done just enough research on the Mosin's to know that it's takes more than the amount of research I've done to really know what's what. I'm not looking for this to be a collector piece, more just something to take to the range periodically that's a little more interesting than plinking with the .22, but still won't break the bank.

Cheers, Square

[M2]

Square

In a nutshell, the Mosin-Nagant is a 7.62x54R rifle that was the Russian Army standard for many years and which can be found in numerous configurations and was built many countries. The "standard" Mosin is a 91/30, and should cost about $100 delivered. It is a bolt-action rifle with a five-round fixed magazine, and 440 rounds of ammo can easily be found in spam cans for about that same price.

They are solid, heavy rifles that can be very addicting. I got my first about two years ago, and now have over twenty of them. Here's a pic of just a few of them...

The carbines are more fun to me, the shorter barrel means nice, huge fireballs; but the SOBs do have a good kick to them so be prepared for a sore shoulder if you shoot a lot of rounds through one.

To give you an idea of the characteristics of this great rifle, read this humorous comparison between it, an AK and an AR. It's meant to funny, but there's a lot of truth to it...

Oh, and rent the movie Enemy At The Gate; it is standard watching for any Mosin fanatic!

Cheers! M2

p.s. Everything you need to know about Mosins can be found at 7.62x54r.net - A Mosin Nagant Reference!

[ClearedHot]

The SGL-20? It's fucking awesome! Light, solid, and accurate as well. If you are an AR fan but looking for an AK, this has to be the best build you can get without going to a customer job. I can't believe I got it so cheaply, (ugh!).

How much, it is sold out on the website and they don't show the price. The others look a lot more expensive.

Edited December 6, 2010 by ClearedHot

[Square]

N2, I've followed your Mosin collection as you've updated this thread. I take it then this offer from Bud's is not so much a deal as a standard offering in terms of price? I remember a while back we tried to get a Baseops group buy on these rifles, but it fell through.

Aside from the carbine vs full sized, any other particulars you yourself find more attractive in one model or another?

Square

In a nutshell, the Mosin-Nagant is a 7.62x54R rifle that was the Russian Army standard for many years and which can be found in numerous configurations and was built many countries. The "standard" Mosin is a 91/30, and should cost about $100 delivered. It is a bolt-action rifle with a five-round fixed magazine, and 440 rounds of ammo can easily be found in spam cans for about that same price.

They are solid, heavy rifles that can be very addicting. I got my first about two years ago, and now have over twenty of them. Here's a pic of just a few of them...

The carbines are more fun to me, the shorter barrel means nice, huge fireballs; but the SOBs do have a good kick to them so be prepared for a sore shoulder if you shoot a lot of rounds through one.

To give you an idea of the characteristics of this great rifle, read this humorous comparison between it, an AK and an AR. It's meant to funny, but there's a lot of truth to it...

Oh, and rent the movie Enemy At The Gate; it is standard watching for any Mosin fanatic!

Cheers! M2

p.s. Everything you need to know about Mosins can be found at 7.62x54r.net - A Mosin Nagant Reference!

[M2]

How much, it is sold out on the website and they don't show the price. The others look a lot more expensive.

CH

Got mine for $645 + tax & 3% credit card fee, see my post

N2, I've followed your Mosin collection as you've updated this thread. I take it then this offer from Bud's is not so much a deal as a standard offering in terms of price? I remember a while back we tried to get a Baseops group buy on these rifles, but it fell through.

Aside from the carbine vs full sized, any other particulars you yourself find more attractive in one model or another?

Square

It's a decent deal, but nothing exceptional. I snagged my first 91/30 at the Houston gun show for a hundred bucks out the door. Most gun shops around here have them for those common ones for about $100-120 plus tax.

That "group buy" was when somebody was selling crates of Mosins at a decent price; but since I only have a collector's (03) FFL it would have had to go through a dealer (01) FFL and before I could arrange that, the source was sold out.

But if you look through that link I sent, you'll see the variety of different Mosins that were made. I like the carbines, and have one from every country that made them; but I also have a sniper replica that's a real Enemy At The Gates experience to shoot. The biggest drawback to that is I am German, which is who the Russians were shooting at in Stalingrad!

As for what else appeals to me, I like the older M91s and Finnish rifles if simply for their historical value. The only problem is that the rarer the rifle, the more expensive they get! That is one of the reasons I throttled back on my collecting. I hope one day to have a way to display them all, as I have some interesting pieces such as Remington made one as well as a New England Westinghouse. I also have one that was used during the Spanish Civil War, and other less common variants; but there is still a huge score of Mosins that I would like to have if I had the money and space to store them!

The bottom line is to buy one, shoot it, then start looking for another one to add to your collection. I have forgone collecting Mausers to focus on Mosins, but I did snag a Yugo M48 a few weeks back and I fear those may become my latest addiction. That is one of the biggest downfalls to this hobby, there are so many great firearms out there to own, and so little time and money!

Cheers! M2

[brickhistory]

Concealed carry TTPs?

In the past, concealed carry for me meant putting a gun under the seat. Lately, however, I've been carrying on my person which is easy with a coat with an inside pocket.

I am curious, however, as to what to do come warmer weather? How do those that use a holster keep it from showing or your shirt from riding up to reveal that you are carrying?

I'd like to keep a concealed weapon concealed and not have to show my permit because somebody freaked when they saw a gun on me. Of course, in DC, where I really feel the need to carry, I can't. Gotta love gun control there...

So, anyone willing to educate/share their techniques?

[HossHarris]

A small, thin gun (1911) in an iwb holster. Works for shorts and a Tshirt for me. Also realize 90%+ of the population wouldn't notice if you were open carrying on your hip, so don't sweat it too much.

[GBock]

Crossbreed holsters are the best money can by for "summer weight" concealed carry, IMHO. I have two, one for my Sig P229 and one for my new Ruger SR9c. With the SR9c IWB holster, I can carry wearing shorts and a tucked in T-shirt, and under normal circumstances, you can't tell I'm carrying. Works even better for larger framed dudes.

Check out the supertuck deluxe: https://www.crossbreedholsters.com

[M2]

While I love my 1911s, they weigh too much to conceal carry. Plus, I don't want to be sweating all over them.

I carry my XD-45 Service using a simple Uncle Mike's neoprene IWB holster. Of course you need to be wearing a belt or at least shorts with a waistband that can be tied; but outside of that I simply try to wear slightly larger and darker colored t-shirts and so far I have never been "called out" on carrying.

Also, check yours state laws. In Texas, accidental exposure of your firearm or even "printing" is not against the law! The weapon has to be purposely displayed "with the intent to cause alarm" and I have yet to hear of anyone being detained or charged for accidentally exposing a firearm. People tend to get overly paranoid about it and a few use it as justification for needing open carry; but the truth of the matter is that conceal carry is actually quite easy.

Oh, and sometimes I do carry a BUG in a gear bag or something, especially when driving as it's easier to reach versus the pistol I have tucked into my back! I also occasionally just drop my Taurus PT709 Slim into my pocket if I'm just running a quick errand.

Cheers! M2

[HossHarris]

I have a stainless 1911 so o don't worry about sweating all over it (in Phoenix and Vegas no less). I will strongly second the need for a GOOD GUN belt. Google the beltman in NC

[M2]

I know what I'm getting my kids for Christmas!

This Christmas, Give Your Child a Semi-Automatic Barrett

Cheers! M2

[Timbonez]

SIG P220 Carry, Range Report:

DA/SA

.45 ACP semi-auto

Steel slide with SIG's Nitron finish

Anodized aluminum frame, with accessory rail

3 dot night sight setup

3.9" barrel (beginning of chamber to end of muzzle actually measures ~3.6")

8+1 round capacity

I bought this SIG September of last year, and I posted about it during that time as well. I carried it a few times even though I hadn't thoroughly tested it's reliability. After a while I put it aside and moved on to other handguns. In recent months I started some reliability testing and put it through it's paces with the last 900 rounds I've put through it.

When I first purchased the firearm, I immediately put 100 rounds of 230gr Remington Golden Saber HPJ through it. All 100 rounds functioned flawlessly and I decided it was suitable to carry with that ammo. I do not recommend just testing 100 rounds before carry. Ideally ANY firearm designated as your personal defense weapon should have at least 500 (1000 would be better) failure free rounds through it. This should include both standard range ammo and your defense ammo of choice. Cleaning in between range sessions is fine, but make sure you test the weapon.

Anyway, back to the report. After carrying the SIG for a little while I decided to go back to carrying my Beretta. When I unloaded the mags I noticed the golden sabers would get hung up in the mag body on the last 2-3 rounds. I never experienced that during initial testing so I thought maybe the magazines deformed. It turns out that it is not uncommon for the golden sabers to get hung up on SIG P220 magazines. I'm glad I didn't have to find this out the hard way.

The pistol came with 3 magazines and I bought another SIG magazine as well as an ACT-Novak magazine. The second time I took the pistol to the range I tested another 100 rounds with the ACT-Novak magazine. I experienced 2-3 failures to return to battery. As the slide would strip a new cartridge the extractor was unable to fit into the extractor groove of the case. The extractor would just sit behind the case, rendering the pistol unable to fire or extract. I've only experienced this problem with the ACT-Novak and have since relegated it to holding my snap caps and dry fire practice. You get what you pay for.

The third time I took the pistol to the range I fired another 100 rounds through it and used it to introduce the wife to .45 ACP. It functioned flawlessly. Since then I decided that I wanted to test this weapon without cleaning it over several hundred rounds. This should be no problem for any modern semi-auto. My initial goal was 1,000 rounds without cleaning, but I stopped at 900 just because I don't like to have a dirty gun. Testing for this began in October and finished today. I accomplished this over 4 range sessions. The pistol saw outside temps between 15 and 90 degrees. It was cleaned and lubed with Mil-Comm TW25B grease prior to shooting. No maintenance, to include cleaning or lubing, was done to the pistol or magazines for the duration. I experienced zero failures throughout the test. As mentioned before today was the last day, and I put 300 rounds through it in 15-20 degree weather. It should be noted that this test is child's play compared to how others test/abuse their guns.

I detailed stripped the weapon, minus the hammer stop, and cleaned it thoroughly with SLIP 2000 and some Hoppes for the barrel. The pistol was lubed with SLIP EWL 30. The gun was absolutely filthy with crusted carbon flaking off as I removed the small parts from the frame. Despite how dirty it was, the weapon ran smooth and there wasn't a time that the action felt sluggish. I suspect the pistol would have continued to work in this state for a much longer time... even longer if I simply added lubrication.

Putting it back together was a bitch, as I had never completely disassembled the weapon before (just the locking block and trigger prior to this). I downloaded an armorer's manual to help me stumble through it, and after some frustration with exactly how the hammer strut was supposed to be positioned, I figured it out. After that first learning experience I should have no problem completely disassembling the pistol and putting it back together in 10-15 minutes. Since I was able to do this, I gained an appreciation for how relatively simple the design and action of the pistol is. There are few parts, although some are small so care should be taken to not lose them. All in all, it is a very good pistol design that has made SIG's reputation what it is today (although that rep has fallen from grace as of late). It's easy to see why this is a popular military/LE weapon.

Overall the weapon shoots nicely. It's more accurate than I am. The double action pull is relatively heavy, but consitent throughout the take up. There is no perceived creep in DA or SA. Overtravel appears to be non-existent, and the reset to SA is quite short and very positive. There is no doubt when the weapon is ready to fire again. Reloads are extremely easy using either the slide stop or overhand/slingshot method. The decocker is positive, and when the weapon is decocked, there is a certain amount of space between the firing pin and the hammer. Fit and finish are good, with wear starting to show due to normal use. The pistol feels good in my medium-ish sized hands.

PROs:

Simple design, dedicated decocker w/no safety

Grip profile is slim thanks to the single stack magazines

Good sights, despite the fact that they are 3 dot; 2 dot setups can be had, but they won't be night sights (unless aftermarket) if that's your thing

Accessory rail

Abundance of aftermarket accessories and modifications available

Tons of support and replacement parts for breakages and scheduled maintenance

CONs:

Limited capacity, only 8+1 rounds standard

Shorter distance between sights, can result in reduced precision

Magazines are finicky with 230gr Rem. Golden Sabers

Magwell could use a little more bevel

Personal modifications that I did were I replaced the standard trigger with a short trigger and the slotted grip screws with hex-head screws... nothing fancy. I see this as a reliable handgun and will have no problem using it as a self defense weapon. Because of the magazine issue, I will stay away from the golden sabers in this pistol (they feed just fine though).

ETA, 15 Dec: I forgot to mention recoil. The P220 carry is half an inch shorter in the slide/barrel than the regular P220. All other dimensions remian the same. It would stand to reason that it would be somewhat lighter than the regular P220, but SIG's website lists them both as 30.4oz. I found out that the upper portion on the sides of the slide retain more metal on the Carry. You'll notice how this area scallops inward and creates a "sort-of" shelf just below it. While the both the regular P220 and the Carry have this shelf, the Carry's is not as pronounced since it retains more metal above. This is how it keeps the same weight as the P220 and doesn't add any additional width or bulk to the gun. The shelf is the widest part of the slide. Although it doesn't have the weight of a commander or government sized 1911, recoil is very manageable. SIGs all have a relatively high bore axis compared to a Glock or M&P, but it doesn't seem to suffer from any more muzzle flip than these two designs.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Timbonez

[HeloDude]

Proud owner of new Rock River AR-15...looks like Christmas came early this year! Gotta love being a single Captain and being able to buy what you want :)

[M2]

From an AK forum I'm on...Women With Guns!

Errrrr...maybe not!

Cheers! M2

[brickhistory]

Nice review, Timbonez. Lot of homework (900 rounds before cleaning!) done to get that one done.

[M2]

Great review, T-bonez; I've never owned a SIG but most of what I've heard about them has been positive!

I have to admit I think I am somewhat spoiled by the XD in that it is nearly a flawless gun in my experience. I've got several thousand rounds down the pipe and I honestly cannot recall ever having any kind of failure whatsoever with it. I consider it the standard for any pistol, which is why I am so apt to recommend it to anyone seeking a handgun for self-defense.

Oddly enough, the same 'con' you listed (only having a 8+1 capacity) has always been a concern of mine; but studies by the NYPD and LAPD show that the average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed confrontation was between two and three rounds. Also, the necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor in any of the cases examined in the NYPD report; and in close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as being necessary. Only 6% of the total cases had the officer reported reloading, which involved cases of pursuit, barricaded persons, or other incidents where the action was prolonged and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone.

As such, I think much of the concern for high capacity is overstated. That said, I still will continue to primarily rely on the 13+1 capacity of my XD45; but it has relieved my need to carry extra magazines in most instances. About the only time I do so is when I am wearing my shoulder rig which makes carrying the extra magazines quite easy (and actually balances out the rig weight somewhat).

Cheers! M2

[M2]

p.s. An interesting point in the NYPD study came out of FM 23-35 COMBAT TRAINING WITH PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS, which calls for the use of Quick-Fire Point Shooting for combat at less than 15 feet, and when firing at night...

"The weapon should be held in a two-hand grip and brought up close to the body until it reaches chin level. It is then thrust forward until both arms are straight. As the weapon is thrust forward, the trigger is smoothly squeezed to the rear. The arms and body form a triangle which can be aimed as a unit." For shooting at 5 to 10 yards, a modified version of the technique is used. (pg 2-17)

I bet the vast majority of people do not practice this technique at the range, and it always amuses me to watch someone be overly amazed at their "marksmanship" skills while taking several minutes to stand, aim and fire their pistols at a non-moving target. This is why I also advocated IPDA and similar opportunities to actually test how well a person shoots "on the fly." It still involves stationary targets, but at least the shooter is doing what they should be in many self-defense situations, which is moving (preferably away from the threat!).

[Timbonez]

Thanks, Brick and M2. As I mentioned before, 900 rounds without cleaning is child's play. In a few of the other firearm forums that I frequent, there is a 2,000 round challenge floating around. A man named Todd Green came up with the idea and the details can be found here. I've seen it posted on several websites, with the majority of those testing their guns using a Glock or M&P. I've seen a few others to include SIGs and a 1911 here and there as well (I think I saw a revolver once too). His website, pistol-training.com, has a ton of info. He's put an M&P 9mm, HK P30 and HK45 through their paces. He's even gone thousands of rounds (9000-12000) between cleaning some of them! All have been ultra reliable. I don't think I could do that to any of my guns, but it goes to show you that polymer framed pistols are pretty much the way of the future.

Anyway 1,000-2,000 without cleaning is plenty good, as I can't imagine a scenario where I wouldn't have the capability to perform basic level maintenance on my guns (even in an apocalypse).

M2, I forgot to mention that even though I list 8+1 as a CON, I do not mind this. I always carry at least one extra reload, which is much easier to do with a single stack mag. It also gives me options if my original magazine were to fail during the course of defending myself. You also mentioned point shooting, and I practice a variation of this myself as this is most likely the best way to use your weapon when fighting. It's one thing to take slow, deliberate shows at the range to hone your skills. Bad guys won't give you the time to do that. So it's important to start with slow, aimed fire for practice and then work on speed and point shooting. I try to incorporate this into my shooting, even risking the sacrifice in accuracy as long as I can hit minute of center mass/cranium (depending on distance to target of course). Another thing I would add to shooting at the range is mag dumps. A lot of places don't allow it, but it give you a chance to stress the weapon and also work on control and accuracy if you had to use your weapon like that.

My next review will be a FN BDAO that I purchased recently. I just need to put some ammo through it to give you guys a decent review on my opinions.

ETA: Thanks for the FM 23-35. I'll hold on to that.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Timbonez