Gun Talk

[Truman08]

Article

I thought this is a little ridiculous. Basically, the ACLU is filing a lawsuit in SD because their conceal and carry laws state that you have to be US citizen. Thoughts/discussion?

[Gas Man]

Well I did the unthinkable and bought a tupperware gun again. This one is a brand new (as in it left the factory after Dec 21st 2010) Gen4 Glock 17, $423.95 out the door. My first gun was a USP Compact in .40 S&W, and my second was a Glock 19. I sold both of those because I didn't like the feel of them. I also owned a mid-size M&P45, which was sold to a friend. We'll see how this Glock fares. Expect a review for this pistol before my BHPs. I've shot those a lot, so I think I'll focus on shooting this pistol and provide a review for it first.

By the way, M2, you are the Axis of Evil. Nice rifle.

I just got a 21C. Very nice gun. I recommend the extended slide release.

https://www.glockworld.com/category/1762-Glock_Extended_Controls.aspx

[Timbonez]

I just got a 21C. Very nice gun. I recommend the extended slide release.

https://www.glockworld.com/category/1762-Glock_Extended_Controls.aspx

Gas Man, thanks. I'm going to buy the extended slide stop from Vickers Tactical when they become available. I'll also replace the sights in due time.

M2 and anyone else who shoots 7.62x54r, Aim Surplus has some 440rd cans for $72.95. After you figure in shipping, total cost per round will probably be 17-19 cents. Romanian Silvertip

[bagasticks]

Anyone care to hazard a guess on price for a Navy MTU National Match Conditioned M-1 Garand in .308? It was built by the Navy MTU in SoCal back in the 60's and is in excellent condition.

1500 ish, a little more if it was 30.06. .

just an educated guess, certainly do a little research on some dedicated Garand sites.

[M2]

OK guys, better pics of the Vietnam bring-back T53 I got earlier this week...

The bolt is mis-matched but from what I've read that's not uncommon. Otherwise, it's all matching (even the stock), to include the paperwork!

Only $300, which is a frigging deal!

Cheers! M2

p.s. The guy that brought it back 40 years ago was from Tucson. I know a retired police detective out there who is checking to see if he can find out any info about him. An online search found his name mentioned in an obituary as "having proceeded his brother (the deceased) in death" but I can find no obituary for him. I don't want to bother him (if he's still alive) or his family (if he's not); but if he did pass away and there was an obituary, it might provide some more info on his military service during the Vietnam War...

[Timbonez]

That rifle looks good, M2. Old guns with history are awesome. Hope you find what you're looking for.

[brickhistory]

Also, while each situation is different, it's not always considered rude by the family of the deceased to either want to know more or provide them info if you have it.

I found that many families had no idea of Dad/Uncle/Cousin role in the war (pick one) and were surprised, but very pleased, to know. The old guys often never told their stories because they thought no one would be interested and/or they wanted to forget. I have occassionally contacted families if I have something on a relative - go through the funeral home, explain who you are and what you have/want, ask the home to contact the family. That way there's no pressure for anybody to accept or decline. I've never had a family decline to talk/receive the info.

Nice rifle historically. Interesting to note the crude serial stamping on the receiver. Quantity vs. quality - the age-old debate.

What do they shoot like as far as recoil? M1 or 1903? Accuracy?

[Bluto]

Just picked up a new XDM 9 for $520. SA also had a deal online where if purchased by Dec 31st then you get 3 free mags and another mag holder. I've only shot about 70 rounds so far and it's pretty sweet. Now just have to get some accessories!

[Timbonez]

Nice find, Bluto. Keep shooting it and let us know how it works out.

I decided I'd give a quick update on my Gen4 Glock 17 before I gave a full up review. I went shooting today and brought 302 rounds with me, 200 115gr Prvi Partizan (PPU) and 102 147gr Remington Golden Sabers. I had heard reports of the Gen4 G17s having feeding and/or extracting/ejecting issues because of the stout recoil spring. The Gen4s use a double captured recoil spring assembly (RSA), and apparently the weight of the spring in the G17 is the same as the G22. Since the G22 is a .40 S&W weapon it would seem that the heavier spring in a 9mm would be too much. Well it was for the PPU. I experienced several failures to feed, eject, and extract. All failures were encountered with the PPU ammo. Since this is just range ammo, it is not loaded particularly heavy. Ejection was erratic from the 4 o'clock position thrown just inches to ejecting over the top and the left side of the weapon. I experienced zero failures with the Golden Sabers, and you could tell the difference in recoil between the two types of ammo. Ejection was strong in the 4 o'clock region and a couple of feet away from me and the pistol.

I can't say I'm particularly happy with the results, but I'm not totally upset either. PPU handgun ammo is very weak, so I was sort of expecting this from that ammo. I'm glad I didn't run into any problems with my defensive ammo of choice, but more testing will need to be performed to ensure this pistol works all right. I still have another 300rds of PPU to burn through, and I think I'll start shooting other types of range ammo (Winchester White Box, PMC, etc.) to make sure they function ok. I'll also be putting another 102rds of 147gr Golden Sabers through the G17 again as well. When I do provide the review, I expect to have between 1,000 and 2,000rds through the pistol.

Some particulars before I went shooting:

- Reports indicated that locking the slide back for about a week on Gen4 G17s allows the RSA to take a set. This does not weaken the spring (just like a loaded magazine does not weaken your mag spring any appreciable amount), rather it lets the spring take a set. I locked mine back for about 2.5 days.

- The pistol was field stripped and wiped with a towel just to get some of the carbon from the factory test fire removed. It wasn't cleaned but Slip EWL 30 was added to the slide rails and frame rails. Slip gun lubricant was added to where the connector meets the trigger bar.

- I loaded the 3 magazines with 17rds each and they sat like that for about 2 days.

- Each magazine was numbered with my wife's orangey-pink nail polish. I know, it's gay, but it allows me to keep track of problems with particular mags and the nail polish lasts a good while.

Anyway the gun will remain uncleaned and no additional lubrication will be added. The slide will also remain locked back for a few more days. I'll provide you guys with a review once I get to the aforementioned 1k-2k rounds.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Timbonez

[brickhistory]

She's extremely lucky to be alive it sounds like. This kind of shit just makes you wonder. It's so damn hard to get on an airplane but any psycho with a gun can walk right onto a train, a bus, or into your local grocery store and open fire. Let's just hope this guy acted alone.

Hopefully the following won't completely hijack this thread, but I fully expect the anti-gun crowd to use this as a way to force registration/ban/limit the 2d Amendment. As noted earlier, now that one of Congress' members has been shot, the rights of the citizens won't really be of importance.

I do regret the shooting of the congresswoman (man, talk about an overachiever couple - congresswoman and USN fighter pilot/astronaut.) and the others, particularly the little girl, but those that choose to own/use firearms lawfully are going to be the ones who get the blowback from this. Hope not, but I'm too cynical to think otherwise.

[Guest StreamOfTheSky]

Hopefully the following won't completely hijack this thread, but I fully expect the anti-gun crowd to use this as a way to force registration/ban/limit the 2d Amendment. As noted earlier, now that one of Congress' members has been shot, the rights of the citizens won't really be of importance.

Alternatively,

Hopefully the following won't completely hijack this thread, but I fully expect the national security crowd to use this as a way to further erode our 4th amendment rights to go places without being subject to an unwarranted search or other invasions of our privacy. As noted earlier, now that one of Congress' members has been shot, the rights of the citizens won't really be of importance.

[brickhistory]

You have a forum to say anything you want in regards to this tragedy, and this is what you choose to say? Disgusting.

WTF? Either you misunderstood my intent or I didn't do a good enough job conveying it.

The victims of this tragedy are the result of one (possibly more) sad sack's actions in his use of a gun. I am sorry he was taken alive. I hope he suffers before meeting an untimely end.

I hope, but would not be surprised, that the rest of us who possess firearms legally and use them the same way, are not tarred with a "all guns" are bad brush with resulting constraints.

What's to b1tch about in that?

[Guest]

You have a forum to say anything you want in regards to this tragedy, and this is what you choose to say? Disgusting.

Dude, stand 'em up.

[Crosswind]

Dudes,

First off, this is unfathomable. 2d off - I'm already disgusted (not by this forum), in fact I'd say the conduct on this forum is respectable and thoughtful, not like the shit going around on facebook.

I own firearms and will continue too, I have the right. I also have the responsibility to treat the weapons with respect, and not view them as a means to resolve personal vendettas. Further, as a responsible weapons owner I refuse threaten/instigate my political/conversational opponents through firearms, in any way, symbolic or not.

This ###### can kiss my ass, if anyone steps ups and screams we need to get rid of guns, or that this proves we needs guns, they can kiss my ass too. I don't want to hearing anything like "you can take my guns, bullets first".

What we need is intelligent conversation and not open rebellion against our political system. This guy was subliminally endorsed. The next time Sarah Palin says "she has her sights" on someone please going me in telling her to go ###### herself - and that only a dumb ###### would have a map targeting individuals like their Osama Bin Laden.

The thing that makes America great is the peaceful, democratic transition of power. Let's not let ######s like this and his instigators throw that away.

[HeloDude]

You have a forum to say anything you want in regards to this tragedy, and this is what you choose to say? Disgusting.

Yes, you are exactly right...because no one else is talking about gun control right now based off the incident. Oh wait...look what I found!

Statement from Rep. Carolyn Maloney Regarding yesterday’s tragic events

“While it is too early to come to any conclusions about the causes or consequences of yesterday’s tragic events, it is never too late to reflect on lessons we have learned from earlier such tragedies, and take them to heart.

“Guns kill. And those who glamorize gunplay or worship gun ownership do no service to humanity

Congresswoman Maloney's Website

If this is going to be brought up as an issue, then you must bring up 2nd Amendment rights. My thoughts and prayers to the families of those slain yesterday and I'll continue to pray for the survivors. It's a shame there wasn't a responsible citizen in the crowd carrying...could have possibly been a less tragic outcome.

[HeloDude]

Loughner was almost immediately tackled by victims. While I wasn't at the scene, the news coverage here in Tucson has been non-stop. I'm glad no one tried to shoot him-I suspect more people would have been injured. There was no time to unholster, aim, and fire. A gun battle in a crowded shopping center parking lot would have been a worse scenario. Tackling seems like it was the best resolution.

Grant it, I don't know anymore of the situation, but do you CCW? I'm hearing reports from the Sheriff (as I type this) that he emptied out a full extended mag and was attempting to reload. I don't know about others (M2, Timbonez, etc can also comment), but I can draw fairly quickly and get a few rounds off...and I'm sure I can do that before a guy can empty a full 31 round magazine.

Now I'm not trying to say you're wrong (or right for that matter), and I definitely wasn't there, nor faced in that specific situation, but that's the whole reason people carry...to defend themselves and others around them. And I feel confident if I'm close to someone (7-10 yards) that I can draw, aim, and fire in less time than it takes a guy to get 31 rounds off.

But like you mentioned, thank God there were courageous people (I heard it was a female that got the gun) that had the guts to tackle this guy before he could reload and do it again.

[Pancake]

Grant it, I don't know anymore of the situation, but do you CCW? I'm hearing reports from the Sheriff (as I type this) that he emptied out a full extended mag and was attempting to reload. I don't know about others (M2, Timbonez, etc can also comment), but I can draw fairly quickly and get a few rounds off...and I'm sure I can do that before a guy can empty a full 31 round magazine.

Now I'm not trying to say you're wrong (or right for that matter), and I definitely wasn't there, nor faced in that specific situation, but that's the whole reason people carry...to defend themselves and others around them. And I feel confident if I'm close to someone (7-10 yards) that I can draw, aim, and fire in less time than it takes a guy to get 31 rounds off.

But like you mentioned, thank God there were courageous people (I heard it was a female that got the gun) that had the guts to tackle this guy before he could reload and do it again.

I hear ya, but disagree.

My experience with handguns is as an enlisted SP and as aircrew. I've never not shot expert. Between the time to mentally shift from "friendly day at the supermarket" to "kill" mode, ID the target, prepare to fire, and pop off a few rounds, I'd prefer to tackle the guy. Loughner's 30 or so single-action shots probably took about 10 seconds to fire.

Anyway, all speculation, none of us were there... Cheers to the heroes that subdued this guy, and prayers to the families of the dead and injured.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Pancake

[Pancake]

If a CCW citizen had been there, this guy would have been down long before he fired off 30 rounds.

Disagree. You're assuming all CCWs are expertly proficient. I'm not sure introducing more bullets to the situation in this case would have been a good thing.

Again, all speculation.

[brickhistory]

Never let a tragedy go to waste...

My staff is working on looking at the different legislation fixes that we might be able to do and we might be able to introduce as early as tomorrow, McCarthy told POLITICO in a Sunday afternoon phone interview.

Gun control activists cried it was time to reform weapons laws in the United States, almost immediately after a gunman killed six and injured 14 more, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, in Arizona on Saturday.

Many said that people with a history of mental instability, like the alleged shooter, Jared Lee Loughner, should not be able to buy a gun and no one should be able to buy stockpiles of ammunition used by the 22-year-old assailant.

McCarthy said she plans to confer with House Speaker John Boehner and Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi to see if we can work something through in the coming week.

A two-fer. Scoring against the 2d and 1st Amendments:

Pennsylvania Rep. Robert Brady, a Democrat from Philadelphia, told CNN that he also plans to take legislative action. He will introduce a bill that would make it a crime for anyone to use language or symbols that could be seen as threatening or violent against a federal official, including a member of Congress.

The ability to buy a weapon that fires hundreds of bullets in less than a minute, said Quigley. He had an additional magazine capability. Thats not what a hunter needs. Thats not what someone needs to defend their home. Thats what you use to hunt people.

Glad he and others get to decide for me what I want, not just what I need.

Tell me again of your disgust for me for pondering the very realistic consequences from this numbnut's action?

Most of this will be a lot of furor (word of the day) and not much action, but I'm still pretty sure that law-abiding gun owners will face even more restrictions based upon unlawful action.

Edited January 10, 2011 by brickhistory

[Pancake]

Never let a tragedy go to waste...

All grandstanding. I doubt any of this will make it past the House, or even to the floor.

Ironically, based on her voting record, I doubt Giffords would vote for such legislation, as a she is a gun owner. The AZ CD8 campaign was very contentious and well-covered. Being conservative-leaning, I would have voted (if I was an AZ resident) for Giffords over Kelly (R candidate). Besides Obamacare and abortion rights, she's conservative, well educated, down-to-earth, and actually listens to her constituents.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Pancake

[M2]

Shooting at a single target with a semi-auto Glock, it still takes about 10 seconds to go through 30 rounds. Just watch this U-tube vid...

Notice the gun jams once; but even without that (he clears it pretty quickly) the shooter can still fire about three rounds per second.

But remember he was shooting at a single target, which speeds things up considerably.

I am not sure how close in proximity the victims were to each other, but since Loughner shot multiple individuals (20), it would have added considerably more time to re-acquire each.

In my opinion, I would guess he would have been able to shoot for at least 20-30 seconds before he was tackled; so you can’t really claim it was “immediately.”

Given the crowd at the location, there had to be many people within a few feet the shooter who could have taken him down while he was going through that 30-round clip.

A person could have also drawn a weapon and shot him within 3-5 seconds (I can draw my weapon in a second or so, which is about normal).

Now, considering the number of people present at the time of the shooting, it would have been a very risky shoot. Even with JHPs, there is a good chance of hitting innocent people even at a short range. Studies have shown few actual hits occur at even during close distance gunfights by professionals such as law enforcement officers; so the probability of someone else being hit would have been very high.

So what's the answer? I don't know, I wasn't there and it would be tough for anyone to speculate what they would have done under such circumstances.

Honestly, most people's first natural reaction would be to flee from the threat; and I believe it would have taken an armed individual a few seconds to evaluate what was going on and react.

Could an armed individual have stopped the shooter? Sure, it's very possible; but it's just as likely that more innocent people could have been injured and/or killed.

Also, you have to take into account that if an armed citizen intervened, to responding police officers or other people they would have been just a person with a gun and there is a high likelihood that they too could have been tackled or even worse shot and killed while being mistaken for the original shooter.

It's a tough situation with numerous scenarios as to how it could have played out. We can Monday morning quarterback it to death, but the only facts are what happened and the tragedy of it all.

I too am worried about the fallout from this incident, it wasn't surprising that someone has already used it for more anti-gun fodder much like after President Reagan was shot. Arizona has some of the most liberal gun laws in the country, to include open carry; it will be interesting to see what affect, if any, this incident will have on them. But the bottom-line truth is they can pass all the laws they want, it doesn't stop tragic events such as these from happening...

It all makes me glad I picked up a Bulgarian 75-round drum for my AKs a few weeks ago, as well as a 1260-round can of Romanian ammo at the gun show yesterday! Every time gun control nuts pipe up, prices follow!

I wish the surviving victims a quick and full recovery, and hope that the deranged shooter and any accomplices he may have had are brought to justice quickly and feel the full extent of the law!

Cheers! M2

[Pancake]

It all makes me glad I picked up a Bulgarian 75-round drum for my AKs a few weeks ago, as well as a 1260-round can of Romanian ammo at the gun show yesterday! Every time gun control nuts pipe up, prices follow!

Really?! Joking, right?!

I am all about the second amendment, but is all of that necessary? I'm curious of the purpose of such extensive firepower.

Obviously, firearm ownership lines have to be drawn somewhere. Whether it's semi-automatic handguns, fully-automatic rifles, or personally owned A-10s, there comes a point where the right to bear arms ends. Just like well-intentioned evangelicals, over-the-top radio talk show hosts, or radical political activists put-off the general public with their voices, responsible gun owners can be a lot more successful advocating the Second Amendment by quietly promoting safe and responsible gun usage than by owning, bragging about, or encouraging stockpiling of military standard weapons. No private citizen is going to fend off any tyrannical government with any amount of firepower, and for the safety of my family, I prefer just enough firepower to get lodged in an intruder, but not go through my baby's bedroom wall.

I am a Constitutionally-minded conservative, but bragging about the size of your "gun" in the aftermath of events like yesterday's shootings does more to hurt Second Amendment rights than help.

I'm not sayin', but... I'm just sayin'.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Pancake

[M2]

SNAP, you don't know me very well...

And where in the hell in the Second Amendment does it state "firearm ownership lines have to drawn somewhere?!?"

I am exercising the right I defended for almost 25 years. If you have any problems with that, then

[nsplayr]

Wow, popcorn is out. A full-throated challenge to M2's gun hobby/obsession? GL with that man.

[Timbonez]

Really?!

I am all about the second amendment, but is all of that necessary? I'm curious of the purpose of such extensive firepower.

Obviously, firearm ownership lines have to drawn somewhere. Whether it's semi-automatic handguns, fully-automatic rifles, or personally owned A-10s, there comes a point where the right to bear arms ends. Just like well-intentioned evangelicals, over-the-top radio talk show hosts, or radical political activists, responsible gun owners can do a lot more for the Second Amendment by quietly promoting safe and responsible gun usage than by owning, bragging about, or promoting ownership of military standard weapons. No private citizen is going to fend off any tyrannical government with any amount of firepower, and for the safety of my family, I prefer just enough firepower to get lodged in an intruder, but not go through my baby's bedroom wall.

I am a Constitutionally-minded conservative, but bragging about the size of your "gun" in the aftermath of events like yesterday's shooting does more to hurt your cause than help.

I guess we're fortunate that you're wrong. There is more than enough regulation on firearms in this country, and it's convoluted and confusing. I'm sure what M2 expressed is justifiable, because every time something like this happens the anti-gun crowd lashes out and tries to add more confusing and unnecessary regulation. There is already enough infringement on the Bill of Rights.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Timbonez