Gun Talk

[bfargin]

Thanks for the feedback on the LC9. I currently carry an XD9 (the small one) but it is still pretty thick and obvious in most dress type clothing. I was looking for something smaller and the LCP is just way too small for rmy hand. The LC9 is small but at least I can still get all my fingers but the pinky on the grip for a little better control. I'd guess that in most emergency defense situations the 7 rounds in the LC9's mag. are adequate. I went ahead and pulled the trigger and bought the LC9. I haven't shot it yet but will give feedback when I get out to test it. It's a pretty good looking small gun.

[Beaver]

A field strip is simple and all you'll need for 99.9% of cleaning and mx

Especially if you shoot as much as the average 1911 owner: never.

[Timbonez]

Bah!

The only Reason to have armorer level skills is if you are making mods.

Incorrect. Knowing how to completely disassemble your pistol of choice not only gives you a greater understanding of how it operates, but it allows you to do work to improve or fix said pistol when parts break. It also means you don't have to send your gun in to the manufacturer for an unknown amount of time when you are capable of doing it yourself. Modern firearms have parts that can be replaced and dropped in by the end user. The 1911, while very easy to detail strip, requires fitting/tuning of many of its internal parts to function correctly and safely. The average shooter who espouses the superiority of the 1911, like you, lacks the knowledge to do such things. The 1911 has become a victim of it's own popularity. There are more manufacturers producing 1911s than you or I have fingers and toes. While this may seem like a positive, it has saturated the market with substandard 1911 type pistols and parts that don't drop in or fit well. Because everyone makes a 1911 to their own specs parts can't simply drop in.

A field strip is simple and all you'll need for 99.9% of cleaning and mx

Also incorrect. A field strip to clean is basic and essential maintenance, but it will only take you so far. Like any mechanical device, parts begin to wear. How are you going to inspect the sear and hammer hook engagement on your pistol to ensure it's in working order without complete disassembly?

You can be a beta tester for a design produced last week, or go with a platform that has been workin just fine for over a century.

I guess you're one of those guys who prefers bloodletting over penicillin as a medical treatment. And those Ford Model Ts... they're quite bitchin'. Glock is quite established in American law enforcement. They're used worldwide and they've been around for longer than a week. M&Ps also enjoy worldwide use as a dependable duty/service weapon. Berettas, XDs, SIGs, and the countless other pistols "produced last week" are improvements over old slab sides. I'm guessing you have a Kimber and you put a grueling 100 rounds per year through it with zero malfunctions. You will likely never experience a problem with it because you don't shoot it enough.

Like I said before, I think the 1911 is a fantastic pistol. It's as American as baseball and apple pie. It has no equal when it comes to trigger pull. It is a very ergonomic and easy to shoot pistol for most people. When built correctly and properly maintained the 1911 is a reliable and durable pistol. If you are up to the task, which most are not, it can still be an effective defensive pistol. With that said, it is an early 20th Century design. Its time as a premier service pistol has come and gone, because there are too many modern pistols that bring more to the table at a more competitive price than a 1911.

Educate yourself by reading the articles at this link:

https://www.10-8performance.com/pages/Articles.html

Additionally, here is some more info with words from Larry Vickers:

https://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/06/08/read-this-before-you-buy-your-first-1911/

Oh, and don't forget the torture tests on the M&P, P30, HK45, and Glock 17 performed by Todd Green... I'd like to see a 1911 go through this:

https://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/mp-monday

https://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/p30-thursday

https://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/hk45

https://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/gen4-friday

Edited April 23, 2012 by Timbonez

[HossHarris]

The average shooter who espouses the superiority of the 1911, like you, lacks the knowledge to do such things.

Easy on the assumptions. I said it generally wasn't necessary ... I didn't say it was hard to figure out or I didn't know how to do it.

How are you going to inspect the sear and hammer hook engagement on your pistol to ensure it's in working order without complete disassembly?

Function checks and changes in trigger pull will highlight wear areas.

Do you really detail strip all of your firearms every time you clean? If so, good on ya.

I don't usually have that sort of time and the weapons don't require it.

Glock is quite established in American law enforcement. They're used worldwide and they've been around for longer than a week.

And have no manual safety and don't fit my hand and don't conceal well for me.

I'm guessing you have a Kimber and you put a grueling 100 rounds per year through it with zero malfunctions.

You will likely never experience a problem with it because you don't shoot it enough.

I have several 1911's (including Kimbers) and I shoot on average almost 1000 rounds per month.

Oh, and don't forget the torture tests on the M&P, P30, HK45, and Glock 17 performed by Todd Green... I'd like to see a 1911 go through this:

Yeah, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. was a cakewalk for sidearms I'm sure

Regardless of your views on handguns ... get something in a caliber that starts with "4," shoot it often, and learn to shoot it well.

[Timbonez]

Function checks and changes in trigger pull will highlight wear areas.

Do you really detail strip all of your firearms every time you clean? If so, good on ya.

I don't usually have that sort of time and the weapons don't require it.

Function checks will not highlight cracks in parts, which may not become a problem until the most opportune time. Proper visual inspection is important. You're suggesting that one should only "inspect" through feel. Even your pistol of choice is easy and quick to completely disassemble. Have you ever done it?

Where did I write that I detail strip my firearms every time I clean them? I acknowledge that it isn't necessary every time you clean, but it should be part of you regular preventative maintenance schedule after several thousand rounds have been put through a pistol... and weapons do require it whether you choose to believe it or not. I'm guessing you didn't read any of those articles I linked. Ignorance truly is bliss, isn't it?

Yeah, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. was a cakewalk for sidearms I'm sure

Really? Provide me with evidence that 1911s were used hard and didn't just sit in a leather holster while GIs used more effective weapons like, oh I don't know, M1s, BARs, M14s, M16s, M2s, M240s, etc. Because it was an issued SECONDARY weapon doesn't mean shit. You're romanticizing the 1911 by making it sound like it had 10s of thousands of rounds put through them fighting off Nazis and Communists.

Regardless of your views on handguns ... get something in a caliber that starts with "4," shoot it often, and learn to shoot it well.

Shoot a .45 because if you are using anything less you might as well be throwing wet paper towels. Do you understand anything about terminal ballistics?

BL: I'm not trying to convince you to shoot something else. A 1911 for carry isn't for everyone. I just want to make sure the new/uneducated buyer of a new carry gun doesn't heed your poor advice.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Timbonez

[ChkHandleDn]

For those that carry, do any of you have any experience with Bersa?

[brickhistory]

For those that carry, do any of you have any experience with Bersa?

Yep. The Thunder .45 is my prime cold-weather CCW.

Great value for the money; has been utterly reliable, change the springs about every 1,000 - 1,500 rounds, keep it clean and lubed.

It's heavy being all steel but not unbearably so. That mass helps soak up some of the recoil from the .45. It shoots well, the grip is good, and it's accurate if I do my part.

And why this over some version of the 1911? I want the double action option for the first shot if ever needed. I'm pretty sure my lizard brain will be the only thing working should a bad situation arise, and even though I practice with it regularly, just pull the trigger is something I think I could manage.

It's nothing fancy; comes in a cardboard box, two magazinzes (spares readily available). Parts, like the springs I mentioned above, can be a little PITA to get since there's only one importer and sometimes they run out and literally have to wait until the boat from Argentina arrives so the delay can be inconvenient.

I like it a lot.

All the above written, I am going to check out the new S&W and Springfields from the recent posts. More $$S than the Bersa however.

Edited April 25, 2012 by brickhistory

[M2]

I got a traditional (albeit still plastic) stock for the SLR-95 and replaced the thumbhole one that was on it, and here's a pic of it with my other Arsenal rifle, a Russian-built Saiga SGL-20 (The Bulgarian is on the left in the top photo, and on the bottom in the second and third pic) ...

I did get a set of Bulgarian Army furniture that I hope to fix up in the near future, but for now it is 922r compliant and despite not having the lower tang installed, the stock fits so tightly (I had to use a rubber mallet to install it, typical AK gunsmithing) that I'm not worried about it.

Cheers! M2

[Timbonez]

Very nice, M2. I like the plastic furniture. The one AK type rifle that I have, an Arsenal SGL-31, has the plastic plum furniture.

How difficult is it to add that lower tang? This is typically only done to milled receivers, no?

Edited April 28, 2012 by Timbonez

[StoleIt]

Really? Provide me with evidence that 1911s were used hard and didn't just sit in a leather holster while GIs used more effective weapons like, oh I don't know, M1s, BARs, M14s, M16s, M2s, M240s, etc. Because it was an issued SECONDARY weapon doesn't mean shit. You're romanticizing the 1911 by making it sound like it had 10s of thousands of rounds put through them fighting off Nazis and Communists.

Prove to me they weren't. I'd venture to say the 1911 is a proven reliable design just by the length of employment it has had. If it was a POS that jammed I am sure it would have been well published (think M16A1 in Vietnam).

And just because you haven't seen a torture test of a 1911 on YouTube means it isn't as reliable as a new age polymer gun?

There, now it's YouTube official.

[Timbonez]

I like the 1911, and I carry one everyday. I own 7 of them, but it's obsolete by today's standards. I never questioned its reliability, but I did say it requires more preventative maintenance as well as an individual both skilled and dedicated enough to take care of their pistol. There are few people capable enough or willing enough to do this. A first time or occasional shooter is better served by a modern pistol.

Thanks for the YouTube video. Very credible.

Over the past 100+ years there have been improvements in every human endeavor. Do you think maybe, just maybe, this also holds true to modern pistol design?

ETA: So you really think because the 1911 "served" in all these wars it saw regular use outside of shooting qualifications and the random "oh shit" encounter with a few bad guys? I guess the same thing can be said for the M9, right? How difficult is it to comprehend that a handgun in military service is a last resort weapon, which is typically rarely used in combat?

Edited April 28, 2012 by Timbonez

[HossHarris]

Rarely used, sure. But definitely carried around, weathered, likely neglected, and probably not cared for by your crack surgical staff. And they still managed to go boom when needed.

1911s aren't for all, certainly. But they don't require kid gloves either.

[M2]

How difficult is it to add that lower tang? This is typically only done to milled receivers, no?

T-bonez

Yep, the lower tang is only for stocks on milled AKs. They were cut off during the AWB, and unfortunately I wasn't lucky enough to get one that had a slot put in it's place (which makes adding it back a lot easier!).

I picked up a tang from CINC Warrior for less then ten bucks, but what I have to do is file a slot to install it. Once that is done, all it takes is to install two rivets under the grip. Good instructions can be found here, I just have to find someone with a press to install the rivets then drink heavily to work up the courage to file away at the receiver of my beloved Bulgarian milled AK!

Cheers! M2

[Timbonez]

They were cut off during the AWB...

That makes sense

[busdriver]

Just picked up a gun rag because is had a picture of the Colt Gold Cup on the front and I've been wanting to buy a 1911 for awhile. Just inside the front is a Ruger add for the 10/22 take-down. I now want said 10/22 takedown, bad.

[nunya]

Here's the takedown I want!

https://wildwestguns.com/copilot.html

[Shortbus]

Here's the takedown I want!

https://wildwestguns.com/copilot.html

Great products, I had some custom work done on my .450 Marlin by those guys - super happy with the end result. That said they'll never get my business again as they are among the biggest bunch of douchebags I've had to deal with..

[nunya]

I agree with the last part - I walked in one day and the employee named Ken was a complete asshat. I hoped it was just him - maybe it's a company culture.

[Shortbus]

I agree with the last part - I walked in one day and the employee named Ken was a complete asshat. I hoped it was just him - maybe it's a company culture.

The gunsmiths there are great - the front office, from the owner on down, are dicks. Short story is they mismanaged the timeline for getting my work done by a huge margin and couldn't be bothered to address my concerns.. i.e. an upcoming hunt I really wanted to use the rifle on.. On one occassion when I was in the shop looking for an update there was a lady with a list from her husband looking for 9mm plinking ammo and they tried to sell her the equivalent amount in premium defense rounds. She was confused by the disparity in what she expected to pay vs what her husband had told her she should pay. I pointed her toward Sportsman's where she could get yellow-box or similar.. They weren't too happy with me but at that point in my dealings with them I didn't really care..

[nunya]

That's why competition is so awesome. There's several other quality levergun smiths just waiting for your business. Maybe they'll get my money instead.

https://www.grizzlycustom.com/packages_custom_lever_action_rifle.html

https://www.brockmansrifles.com/lever_action.asp

[StoleIt]

New Frontier POLYMER lower. Should be less that 1.6lbs total. I need to get my hands on a real scale to to be sure. It's light as all damn hell that's for sure. Start of my Ultra Lightweight AR build.

Nothing special. Spikes lower, PRS stock, KAC Stage 2 trigger. Start of my Mk12 Mod0 clone build.

SW M&P9 VTAC. Range report this weekend. 1

[Beaver]

New Frontier POLYMER lower. Should be less that 1.6lbs total. I need to get my hands on a real scale to to be sure. It's light as all damn hell that's for sure. Start of my Ultra Lightweight AR build.

Nothing special. Spikes lower, PRS stock, KAC Stage 2 trigger. Start of my Mk12 Mod0 clone build.

SW M&P9 VTAC. Range report this weekend. 1

Shoot the m&p out at 25 yards and get a baseline for accuracy. I felt like mine went to shit after a couple thousand rounds. Looking forward to the gunsmith fit barrel from G&R/Storm Lake.

Highest recommendation for the Apex parts, as well.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Beaver

[Timbonez]

Beaver, I've heard the M&P9s have had problems with poor accuracy and early unlocking.

[StoleIt]

Shoot the m&p out at 25 yards and get a baseline for accuracy. I felt like mine went to shit after a couple thousand rounds. Looking forward to the gunsmith fit barrel from G&R/Storm Lake.

Highest recommendation for the Apex parts, as well.

Did your sights just start to move around or the barrel take a dump?

This VTAC thing has the crazy/awesome sights so that should be a leg up.

Yea, I want APEX parts baaad.

[Beaver]

StoleIt, on 23 May 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Did your sights just start to move around or the barrel take a dump?

This VTAC thing has the crazy/awesome sights so that should be a leg up.

Yea, I want APEX parts baaad.

I've got the JG model with the Warren Tactical sights. They aren't the problem. I've read a bunch about the unlocking timing on the barrel affecting accuracy, but honestly I don't shoot all that often at 25 yards and out so it wasn't really an issue. Then I went to a class with Kyle Defoor who is big on 25 yard pistol shooting and was really having some issues with really random, large groups. I didn't want to be the guy to blame the gun, but I was getting a little discouraged so I borrowed another guy's Glock and my groups tightened right back up. Then Kyle shot my gun and it was still all over the place, so I'm pretty sure it's the barrel.

I also had a lot of problems with light primer strikes, but I finally solved that with an updated striker assembly. My gun is an '08, so you shouldn't have a problem with that. I also put in the new sear housing block, but again, no factor for you.

I initally installed the Apex hard sear and the USB which improved the trigger quite a bit. I got the forward set sear when it came out and it's fucking ridiculous. The closest thing to a 1911 trigger pull you'll ever find on a striker fired pistol. I probably wouldn't carry it, but I've got no problems with it around the house.

Even though I've worked through my share of issues I'm still a fan of the M&P. I've got too much invested to give up now so I'm definitely going to change out the barrel. I'm also looking for a new rear sight to aid in one handed manipulations. The slant on the Warrens makes it almost impossible to cycle the slide by hooking on a holster/belt etc.

All that being said I just bought a Glock 19.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Beaver