Gun Talk

[Buddy Spike]

For those looking for 30rd mags

https://www.themakogroup.com/product_p/earm30%20w.htm

Discount codes:

FREE-GRND (free shipping)

ARFCOM (5% discount)

[matmacwc]

For those looking for 30rd mags

https://www.themakogr.../earm30%20w.htm

Discount codes:

FREE-GRND (free shipping)

ARFCOM (5% discount)

Must be over $100 for free shipping, but not a bad deal.

Edited December 29, 2012 by matmacwc

[epsilon]

Must be over $100 for free shipping, but not a bad deal.

Thanks...I just put in an order for magazines. I'm surprised that they aren't on backorder or sold out..which makes me a little nervous. We shall see if it ships out.

[epsilon]

Thanks...I just put in an order for magazines. I'm surprised that they aren't on backorder or sold out..which makes me a little nervous. We shall see if it ships out.

I just did a little research and they appear to be in stock still. Kind of an interesting report from their company...

[StoleIt]

White followers...I haven't bought a metal mag in a long time are those decent?

[brickhistory]

Good customer service - Springfield Armory

In late November, I was shooting my new-ish XD-S. At that point, I'd put around 425 rounds through it.

While shooting, I noticed I couldn't see the front site. I've been re-training to shoot both eyes open instead of the old way of close weak eye and line everything up with the strong eye. As it was pretty new to me, the blurred two front sites thing occurred frequently, but it was/is improving.

I thought that was the problem until emptying the clip (all 5 rounds...) and bringing it back for safety check and reload. I noticed the loaded chamber indicator was up - which it is not supposed to be on an empty chamber. Verified status, yep, empty.

Indicator - which is basically a metal bar about 1.5 inches long and hinged towards the back/grip end bent at about 30 degrees. Obviously, the synchronization in firing and this thing moving didn't quite work out at least once.

I called Springfield the next day, approxamately 22 Nov. They e-mailed me a FEDEX label right then and there with instructions on how to ship the slide back to them.

I received the repaired slide with functioning indicator back yesterday, 29 Dec. Five weeks including two major holidays. Not bad.

Now I'm sure they are hyper-sensitive to any sort of negative publicity regarding their new handgun release, but I was impressed by their response and quick fixing of the problem.

[Beaver]

Moral of this story: don't rely on a gizmo to tell you if your gun is loaded.

[ClearedHot]

For those looking for 30rd mags

https://www.themakogr.../earm30%20w.htm

Discount codes:

FREE-GRND (free shipping)

ARFCOM (5% discount)

Thanks, 10 on the way.

[Smokin]

Indicator - which is basically a metal bar about 1.5 inches long and hinged towards the back/grip end bent at about 30 degrees. Obviously, the synchronization in firing and this thing moving didn't quite work out at least once.

Interesting article in Rifleman this month about the XD-S and all the engineering issues they had to overcome to make a light but reliable .45 cal. Makes me wonder if the XD-S will really be as reliable as their other weapons.

[M2]

Interesting article in Rifleman this month about the XD-S and all the engineering issues they had to overcome to make a light but reliable .45 cal. Makes me wonder if the XD-S will really be as reliable as their other weapons.

I've had no issues with mine, it's been as reliable as every other Springfield firearm I own...

[Buddy Spike]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/30/obama-makes-passing-gun-control-measures-top-2013-priority/#ixzz2GaLmldjv

President Obama pledged Sunday to make gun control a top priority in his second term and vowed to put his “full weight” behind such legislation.

“I’d like to get it done in the first year,” the president said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” “This is not something that I will be putting off.”

Democratic lawmakers and some Republicans have called for immediate action in the aftermath of the Dec. 14 shootings in which 20 first-graders were killed inside a Connecticut elementary school.

Obama said Sunday he would not prejudge recommendations. But he said he was skeptical about the only answer being to put armed guards in schools, as the National Rifle Association has suggested.

The president instead vowed to rally Americans around an agenda to limit gun violence, adding he still supports increased background checks and bans on assault weapons and high-capacity bullet magazines.

[ChkHandleDn]

Anyone in IL? Billl to Ban All Modern Firearms

Edited January 2, 2013 by ChkHandleDn

[Hacker]

Anyone in IL? Billl to Ban All Modern Firearms

Fortunately, that is so obviously unconstitutional by Heller's standard.

[StoleIt]

Anything they can do now to slow roll the CCW the supreme court mandated.

[magnetfreezer]

Fortunately, that is so obviously unconstitutional by Heller's standard.

This is in a state that tried to ban recording police activity in public and re-elected convicted (not indicted) criminals to state offices, though.

[BigFreddie]

Despite the article that is saying that the gun control faction is in disarray, that by no means that this threat is over. If the Feinstein bill -- or even a gutted shadow of it -- passes and is signed, it will still be another significant move away from a crucial right.

Stay on the pressure to your elected representatives, ESPECIALLY now what the summary of Feinstein's proposal is out.

She basically proposes limiting gun owners to choose from anything designed before 1900. We're all going to be able to "bear arms" like the Colt SAA and the Winchester 1894 lever action, and that will be called "sensible restrictions".

The Cowboy Action Shooters and the hunters will shrug their shoulders and not care about the loss of ability to buy or own a Glock or AR....right up until some idiot shoots up a movie theater with a pair of six-shooters, and then the leftists will be asking for another round of "sensible restrictions" on the "high power handguns" that are only "designed to kill people". They'll be playing the clip from Dirty Harry in an endless loop, showing how we need to get "the most powerful handgun in the world, the .44 magnum" off the streets! DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN!

You are right on the money here. It is 100% progress towards no guns at all. The next person who gets shot from across a parking lot with a Rem 700 with a scope will be the cause de jour to ban "sniper rifles". At that point any rifle with a scope is a "sniper rifle" capable of killing from several miles and able to knock down airliners at cruise altitudes. As the saying goes, never let a good crisis go to waste.

I am 100% certain something will change because Sandy Hook. I don't want a ban on "assault weapons" or "hi-capacity" magazines - they both stack the deck in my favor against someone wishing to do me harm. There are Supreme Court rulings stating police are not required to protect you and even if they were, they aren't by your side 24 hours a day. My feeling is the "gun show loophole" will be gone. And possibly "hi-capacity" mags but I really hope not.

See the following video for a great breakdown of criminal stats that are being thrown around. This guy does a great job of separating hype from reality. But it is all based on the accuracy of the source data.

[ClearedHot]

Great Price on Thermold Mags

I bought a DPMS AR to have a spare at a really good price, these mags work like a champ and are dirt cheap.

[nsplayr]

Damn that's cheap, good link.

[billy pilgrim]

A Russians take on the 2nd Amendment- https://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/28-12-2012/123335-americans_guns-0/

[matmacwc]

A Russians take on the 2nd Amendment- https://english.pravd...ericans_guns-0/

Good article, but I bet Ilm on some list after visiting that website.

[M2]

Good article, but I bet Ilm on some list after visiting that website.

No worries, that article has been posted on numerous gun forums; so there's tens of thousands of people on that list if there was even one...

[Vertigo]

Senator Dianne Feinstein,

I will not register my weapons should this bill be passed, as I do not believe it is the government's right to know what I own. Nor do I think it prudent to tell you what I own so that it may be taken from me by a group of people who enjoy armed protection yet decry me having the same a crime. You ma'am have overstepped a line that is not your domain. I am a Marine Corps Veteran of 8 years, and I will not have some woman who proclaims the evil of an inanimate object, yet carries one, tell me I may not have one.

I am not your subject. I am the man who keeps you free. I am not your servant. I am the person whom you serve. I am not your peasant. I am the flesh and blood of America.

I am the man who fought for my country. I am the man who learned. I am an American. You will not tell me that I must register my semi-automatic AR-15 because of the actions of some evil man.

I will not be disarmed to suit the fear that has been established by the media and your misinformation campaign against the American public.

We, the people, deserve better than you.

Respectfully Submitted,

Joshua Boston

Cpl, United States Marine Corps

2004-2012

[M2]

Look out guys, they're coming for your guns!

Commanders, others can ask troops about privately owned guns

By Nancy Montgomery

Stars and Stripes

Published: January 8, 2013

Commanders, chaplains and health professionals are now specifically authorized to ask troops they think are at risk for hurting themselves or others about privately owned firearms.

The authorization is part of the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act, which contains provisions dealing with numerous new or amended policies concerning, among other things, sexual assault, abortion, detainee operations and suicide.

The measure dealing with privately owned firearms clarifies a provision — backed by the National Rifle Association — in the 2011 Defense Authorization Act that prohibited collecting information from troops about their firearms. Some commanders and mental health professionals were concerned that it forbade inquiries about firearms, the most common and by far the most lethal method used by servicemembers to take their own lives.

The Defense Department has made little headway in reducing the suicide rate, which had been lower in the military than in the civilian population. In recent years, for unknown reasons, the rate has soared among soldiers.

The new provision also requires the Defense Department to create a position to oversee all suicide prevention programs and to create a comprehensive program for the military, instead of leaving the services to devise a mix of programs.

The 2011 measure had been criticized by suicide prevention experts and dozens of general officers, including retired Gen. Pete Chiarelli, then Army vice chief of staff. By fall, a provision to clarify the right of commanders and others to ask troops about their firearms had gained broad congressional support.

The 2013 provision was lauded by suicide experts.

“It is great that the provision now specifically allows commanders to speak with troops about their privately owned firearms, not only because it addresses language that previously had a chilling effect on potentially life-saving discussions, but also because it affirms that asking is right and responsible behavior,” said Dr. Matthew Miller at the Harvard School of Public Health.

Miller, associate director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, whose research has demonstrated that suicide is often an impulsive act that can be prevented by making the means to commit it more difficult, also praised Chiarelli, who was among the first military leaders to speak out about the impact of firearms on military suicides. At least two year ago, he had sought to ensure that commanders could ask potentially suicidal soldiers about firearms and recommend that they remove the weapon from their home until suicidal feelings passed.

“Gen. Chiarelli has been the model of a concerned, thoughtful, data-driven leader,” Miller said. “His efforts to protect his troops in this regard are as heroic and as central to his estimable leadership as what he had done to earn his four stars beforehand.”

The NRA said it did not oppose the revision.

montgomeryn@estripes.osd.mil

Experts: Restricting troops’ access to firearms is necessary to reduce rate of suicides

By Nancy Montgomery

Stars and Stripes

Published: December 3, 2012

The horror of war, repeated deployments, the operations tempo, failed relationships, financial problems, legal trouble, depression, PTSD, TBI.

Many reasons have been suggested to explain the substantial rise in the suicide rate of soldiers that began in 2004.

Numerous prevention efforts were launched, hundreds of millions of dollars spent on studies and task forces, resilience programs and increasing access to mental health care.

Yet eight years and hundreds of deaths later, the suicide rate hasn’t improved. The number of suspected suicides in 2012 among active-duty soldiers was 166 at the end of October, surpassing the 165 total for all of 2011.

What’s gone wrong? Why hasn’t the Army or Defense Department been able to reduce the number of suicides?

Experts say it’s because efforts have ignored the most evidence-backed, proven prevention method: making suicide harder by restricting access to lethal means.

“There are two ways to reduce suicide: You can make it harder for them to die in an attempt, or you can heal underlying distress,” said Dr. Matthew Miller, the associate director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center at the Harvard School of Public Health.

“The idea is to restrict methods that are the most lethal, to provide a second chance,” Miller said.

“Means restriction,” as it’s called in public health, has been proven to reduce the suicide rate in a wide variety of places.

In 2006, after years of suicides among young men in the Israel Defense Forces, authorities forbade the troops from bringing their rifles home on weekends. Suicides dropped by 40 percent, according to a 2010 study by psychiatrists with the IDF and the Sheba Medical Center.

Those attempting suicide for the most part act on impulse, often after surprisingly brief periods of deliberation. But the impulse also passes. A survey of people who deliberated about killing themselves but did not act found that for about half, the suicidal period lasted less than an hour, according to Miller.

Among people who made near-lethal attempts, 24 percent took less than five minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt. Seventy percent took less than an hour, according to a 2001 University of Houston study of 153 survivors.

Although people who attempt suicide often suffer from psychological distress, Miller said, they don’t act until a “last straw” — a loss, a humiliation, an arrest.

“That’s the time when you can lose control of your ability to act in a sensible way,” he said. “When you are at your wits’ end, what you can reach for determines whether you live or die. All you have to do to die is lose control for one minute.

“If you’re in a house with a gun, there’s a lot more of a chance you’re going to die,” he said.

Living in a home with a gun increases the suicide death risk two- to 10-fold, Miller said.

Firearms were used in 68 percent of Army suicides in 2010, according to an Army Health and Violence report released this year.

Most often, soldiers shot themselves to death at home or in the barracks.

By comparison, more than half of suicides by U.S. civilians annually involved firearms, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

A matter of rights

As the Army’s vice chief of staff from 2008 until he retired in March, it was part of Gen. Peter Chiarelli’s job to try to reduce the suicide rate. After reviewing hundreds of suicide reports, the conclusion was inescapable, he said in a recent interview with Stars and Stripes.

“There’s nothing worse than the abuse of alcohol and the ability to get your hands on a weapon,” he said.

Drug overdoses, by comparison, were far less lethal, causing only 4 percent of suicides and 56 percent of suicide attempts.

It was another statistic that most confounded Chiarelli: Half the soldiers who killed themselves had not slipped under the radar or avoided professional help. They’d seen a mental health provider, whether it had been six months or six hours before the suicide.

“In the four years I was vice — in all four years — between 49 and 51 percent had gone in to seek help,” said Chiarelli, who now heads a Seattle nonprofit brain-injury research organization called One Mind for Research.

In each case, a presumably well-intentioned social worker, doctor or other expert had written on these soldiers’ records: “Not a danger to himself or others,” Chiarelli said. “That just drove me crazy.”

About two years ago, Chiarelli read a medical journal article sent to the Pentagon’s upper echelons by Adm. Mike Mullen, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The article described how voluntary means restriction in a group of people with an extremely high suicide risk had reduced the suicide rate — to zero.

Chiarelli wanted to try it.

“Quite frankly, all I was trying to get done was the ability of our folks to ask the (potentially suicidal) person about his weapons and make a recommendation that they would separate themselves from the weapon — turn it in, give it to a friend — until the suicidal feelings passed.”

But it wasn’t possible.

“I was told by my lawyers that even that would cause issues,” Chiarelli said. “I was told there would be huge problems with the NRA.”

Commanders typically disable or take the firearms of deployed troops identified as potentially suicidal, but they do not have that authority with private firearms kept off base.

Last year, the National Rifle Association successfully lobbied Republican legislators to include in the annual defense authorization bill a measure barring commanders from collecting information about troops’ personal weapons. The law was widely interpreted to mean that commanders could not ask about the weapons or suggest they be stored elsewhere. The NRA said it was defending Second Amendment rights.

“I think it’s ridiculous,” Chiarelli said. “Nobody was infringing on anybody’s Second Amendment rights. We weren’t going to go out to their house and confiscate weapons.”

Last week, Chiarelli was joined by more than a dozen senior retired generals and admirals who sent a letter to Congress to amend the law they said “dangerously interferes” with the ability of commanders to help troops, according to The Washington Post. “The law is directly prohibiting conversations that are needed to save lives,” the letter said.

Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., was trying to add language amending the law to the Senate version of the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act bill, the Post reported Monday. The House version of the bill that amends the law has already passed, the Post said, and authorizes mental health professionals and commanding officers to ask servicemembers about firearms and ammunition when they believe them at risk for suicide.

Legislators have said that this year they’ll clarify the law so that commanders, as well as other “gatekeepers” such as chaplains and doctors, are allowed to discuss weapons if they have “reasonable grounds” to believe the person is at high risk of committing suicide or harming others. There has been movement within the Defense Department to suggest voluntary means restriction to troops.

The Pentagon has helped hand out more than 65,000 gun locks this year. In a planned safety campaign, troops and their families will be reminded that they can store personal weapons in the base armory, and that it’s never a good idea to store weapons with ammunition.

Plus, a “working group focused specifically on means restriction” will brief a General Officer Steering Committee, according to DOD spokeswoman Cynthia Smith.

The Defense Department and Department of Veterans’ Affairs are working together on joint clinical practice guidelines for suicide that will include means restriction and “safety planning,” Smith said.

Means restriction remains little understood in many parts of the military, or as a former Army psychiatrist said, is politically “the third rail.”

“It’s definitely not popular to talk about restrictions on firearms in the military,” said Lisa Jaycox, co-author of a recent RAND Corp. report for the military on suicide that recommended means restriction among other methods. “It goes against the grain of the institution.”

A 2008 New England Journal of Medicine article by Miller and his associate David Hemenway said many U.S. physicians are unfamiliar with the evidence linking guns to suicide and believe that anyone serious enough about suicide to use a gun would find another equally effective method if the gun weren’t available.

“This belief is invalid,” the article states.

Army psychiatrists and other medical providers are on the front lines of those charged with keeping troops from killing themselves. Yet, an Army Medical Command spokeswoman said the command had nothing to say about means restriction.

“In Army Medicine, we deal with those aspects of suicide as it relates to a Soldier’s mental health, not as it relates to their access to weapons,” she wrote in an email.

The spokeswoman referred questions to a spokesman for the Army Suicide Prevention Program, who did not respond to emailed questions.

Jackie Garrick, acting director of the new Defense Suicide Prevention Office at the Pentagon, said the long-standing prevention emphasis on suicide awareness, caring and treatment remained key. She said many soldiers, if they didn’t have access to a weapon, would use some other method.

“I think means does matter,” she said. “But what we want to do is get to the problem before they get to a tipping point.”

“We need to know our troops at the command level,” she said. “We need to engage leadership and families. We need to back up the mountain instead of just worrying about the firearm.”

In 1999, the Army devised a suicide prevention campaign plan that said many of the same things, including the need to “destigmatize” mental health care.

“Although our first line of defense will be our soldiers, peers or battle buddies, truly our most valuable player in suicide prevention will be the first line supervisor,” the plan said. “They must be able to recognize serious personal problems … must make the time to really learn about their soldiers, including their personal life … be trained to recognize the symptoms of serious mood disorders … and have a genuine concern for the overall welfare of their soldiers.”

Civilian suicide prevention plans also have called for communities to offer more connectedness and compassion. Feeling connected to other people is protective against suicide; a more compassionate society or Army seems like a worthy goal.

But it’s not a strategy, Miller said.

“It’s not useful. It’s not actionable,” he said. “The question is, ‘What can you do?’ Not how do you restructure society.”

Col. (Ret.) Elspeth Cameron Ritchie, a psychiatrist and former adviser to the Army surgeon general, said that despite best efforts troops have had largely negative experiences with seeking military mental health treatment, which, she said, they find “humiliating.”

“Going into the waiting room, sitting there for an hour — soldiers hated it,” she said. “Having people see them, they hated it.”

Seeking help might be a sign of “strength,” as the Army is trying to convince soldiers, but Ritchie said the process isn’t a good fit with a lot of young men; they don’t want to sit around and discuss their feelings.

“What hasn’t been tried is gun safety,” Ritchie said.

She said that two-thirds of suicides happened not on deployment but at home, most often on bases with high operations tempos.

But Fort Drum, in upstate New York, was an exception.

“New York has restrictive gun laws,” Ritchie said. “So, it’s not so easy to get drunk, get a gun and shoot yourself.”

According to a July 2012 story in USA Today, soldiers at Fort Carson, Colo., who had attempted suicide listed 10 reasons on average they’d tried to end their lives, including psychological pain, chronic sadness and desperation.

They didn’t want to die, said Army Col. Carl Castro, coordinator of $50 million in suicide prevention research and treatment as head of the Military Suicide Research Consortium, which did the study. They wanted, he told the newspaper, “the pain they’re currently in to stop, and they don’t see any other way out.”

The Fort Carson study showed that instead of trying to treat underlying illnesses such as depression, the Army should “teach soldiers skills at quelling emotional pain,” the story said. How to do that wasn’t discussed.

The same group — The Military Suicide Research Consortium — in a July report to Congress on best prevention practices noted that there was little evidence of the effectiveness of most prevention methods. Means restriction, the report said, was “a particularly important and effective strategy” and had been shown to reduce overall suicide rates.

“Specifically, suicide rates have decreased following firearm control legislation; detoxification of domestic gas; restriction on barbiturates; alteration of the packaging on analgesics; construction of bridge barriers; mandatory use of catalytic converters in motor vehicles; and the use of lower toxicity anti-depressants,” the report said. “Studies demonstrate that method substitution is rare.’’

In the U.S. — not only in the military — the suicide prevention focus has been on discussing risk factors and asking family, friends and others to spot pre-suicidal behavior and get troubled people into treatment.

Most people who try to kill themselves “usually tell someone,” according to an Army website dedicated to suicide prevention.

Research doesn’t support that. Almost 70 percent of soldiers who killed themselves and nearly 90 percent of those who attempted to “did not communicate their intent,” the Army health and violence report says.

Why the Army rate increased over the past years remains unclear. Stresses from deployment, the operations tempo and surge-related recruiting standards are all thought to play a role.

In 2010, 54 percent of troops who committed suicide and 59 percent of those who attempted had not deployed, Army Secretary John McHugh told reporters at a September press conference, according to the Army Times. Eighty-nine percent had not engaged in combat.

More than 90 percent of people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to kill themselves, according to a 2002 review of 90 studies published in the British Journal of Psychiatry. That held true even when people who had attempted suicide were followed for a decade and for those who used lethal means, such as jumping in front of a train or off a bridge or using a gun, Miller said.

Some 20 percent made another nonfatal attempt, Miller said. About 70 percent made no further suicide attempts.

“There’s lots of opportunity to act,” Miller said. “If people are struggling, if they’ve had setbacks like divorce, arrest, financial troubles; if they’ve stepped up drug and alcohol consumption; if they’re not sleeping or are having mood swings or feel despair

“Why not have the conversation?” Miller said. “To respectfully involve them in a discussion so that they can act in their own enlightened self-interest and in the interest of their families and the people that they care about, to temporarily remove the gun?”

Miller said troops could decide to make a “Ulysses contract,” named for the Greek warrior who spent a decade in the Trojan War. While on his voyage home, Ulysses avoided being called to his death by the enchanting voices of the sirens who lured sailors to shipwreck.

“He wanted to hear the sirens,” Miller said. “He bound himself to the mast so he couldn’t act.”

montgomeryn@estripes.osd.mil

And when this doesn't work, they'll go after alcohol.

[HercDude]

Just don't go after this guys guns . . . . or tell anyone about the governments "suicide mass murder pills".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtyKofFih8Y

[spaceman]

Just don't go after this guys guns . . . . or tell anyone about the governments "suicide mass murder pills".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtyKofFih8Y

Well, that guy is crazy. But Piers Morgan is an idiot. I have to laugh when people ask questions like "How many gun deaths were there in _______?" I've yet to hear how gun deaths are somehow worse than non-gun deaths.