Gun Talk

[Torch]

Solid advice man. I only talked about the "intimidation" factor, because every site I've looked out about the "Pump vs. Semi" debate has brought it up, and it seems like people comment on that "people run when they here a shell chambered" as a mainstay why they like pumps (alongside reliability like you've said). Trust me, I'm with you.. if you're in my house, that was the first mistake, and I'm not going to give you the opportunity to make a second.

[Timbonez]

...I like the stance behind a .40 (better knockdown vs. a 9mm, but more ammo compared to a .45/recoil).

You need to research more about terminal ballistics. This "knockdown" word you throw around is a myth. It's akin to those folks that claim even if you only hit a bad guy in the hand with a .45 it will still knock them down on their ass. With modern bullet technology, the performance disparity between the common service calibers is negligible.

With that out of the way, the M&P was originally designed around the 40 S&W and is an excellent choice.

[Smokin]

Running due to the sound of a shell being chambered is pure hollywood bullshit. All that means is either the gun wasn't loaded at first (which if I were an intruder would make me question your resolve) or you just ejected a loaded shell onto the floor. Either way it is absurdly stupid.

As for the semi vs pump debate, it is a matter of budget and personal taste. I use an inexpensive Winchester pump 12 gauge and I am back on target for a second shot almost as fast as a guy with a semi is. The recovery from the kick to back on target takes me longer than cycling a new shell.

Seconded on Timbonez post. There is an old FBI report (I've been looking for it for similar conversations at work but haven't found it; if you have it, please post) that compiled thousands of police shootings and broke it down by caliber. The end result was that a 9mm was less than 6.9% less effective per round than a .45 in dropping the bad guy. That small of a difference puts caliber choice to be again budget and personal taste driven.

[M2]

You need to research more about terminal ballistics. This "knockdown" word you throw around is a myth. It's akin to those folks that claim even if you only hit a bad guy in the hand with a .45 it will still knock them down on their ass. With modern bullet technology, the performance disparity between the common service calibers is negligible.

With that out of the way, the M&P was originally designed around the 40 S&W and is an excellent choice.

Agreed, it's not "knockdown" but "wounding effect."

And per a FBI study, all other factors being equal, "given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

On a separate note, this is way cool: Test Drive A Makarov

And on a different separate note, anyone else notice these new "diversion bags" from Blackhawk?

Not a bad idea.

Cheers! M2

[HU&W]

Running due to the sound of a shell being chambered is pure hollywood bullshit.

No kidding. The correct answer is to always have your wife run out onto the back patio with your double barreled shotgun and fire two shots randomly in the air. It's a proven technique for scaring off all types of intruders in all situations.

[Timbonez]

Smokin, I believe you are referring to the Marshall & Sanow study, which has been widely discredited. I was recommending that Torch look for a more scientific explanation of terminal ballistics. Look up Dr. Martin Fackler. Another choice is Dr. Gary K. Roberts (a DDS of all things). He was in the USNR and studied wound ballistics. He is pretty active on various firearms forums, and you can also find some of his research posted online.

[M2]

On a separate note, this is way cool: Test Drive A Makarov

Yep...three shots in one second, and all tens...

Smokin, I believe you are referring to the Marshall & Sanow study, which has been widely discredited. I was recommending that Torch look for a more scientific explanation of terminal ballistics. Look up Dr. Martin Fackler. Another choice is Dr. Gary K. Roberts (a DDS of all things). He was in the USNR and studied wound ballistics. He is pretty active on various firearms forums, and you can also find some of his research posted online.

Here ya go...

Wounding Ballistics

But to be honest I disagree with Fackler, who claims that the wound channel created by tumble and yaw is only temporary and/or not that effective. Everything I have seen shows that is more likely to cause severe wounding than a fast, smaller projectile going through the body. I want a round that damages as many internal organs as possible, which, according to the FBI, will be the larger one.

Of course, according to George Clooney in Three Kings, your biggest concern is sepsis!

[Timbonez]

I don't disagree with you, but even the Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness says that penetration is the most critical part of bullet effectiveness when it comes to handgun calibers. This assumes that a shot to the brain is not made. Penetration and then permanent cavity, with temporary cavity playing a minor if any role, are the order. I would throw shot placement in front of all of those. The modern service calibers have more than adequate penetration. Looking at how modern high quality hollowpoints perform in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP the difference in expansion is very minimal. All else being equal, the 9mm is going to be easier to shoot - especially with one handed only shooting, cheaper to shoot, and hold more ammo all in a smaller form factor.

The .45 ACP is my favorite handgun caliber and it's what I've chosen to carry, but I realize what I'm sacrificing for a minimal increase in expansion.

ETA: I'm not saying 9mm is better, but neither is the larger caliber necessarily.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Timbonez

[Torch]

Shows how much I know - back to the books.

[Timbonez]

Torch, read the FBI study posted by M2 in his first response. https://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[Vetter]

.45 for EDC (Kimber Ultra Tactical II). 9mm for zombie apocolyse (Sig P226 with 20 round mag and Liberty Infinity supressor).

I don't participate in the .45 vs 9mm debate. I use both.

Caveat - the above hardware does not actually exist.

[Butters]

It took forever, but I finally received my 15rd Magazines for my Glock 19. Old one lasted 22 years, went ahead a replaced the others since I am sure they are not far behind.

[JarheadBoom]

...instead I'm more a fan of just pulling the trigger til they're down.

Serious question: Have you ever fired a shotgun with a no-shit, full-up defensive round, like 3" 00 buckshot? Ever tried a double-tap, or the good old "2 to the body, 1 to the head" drill with a shotgun and full-up defensive rounds?

[Torch]

No. Again, just from what I've read. flame on with the "you don't know shit", now that I've ousted myself. I've only been considering it recently (hence all the website research references).

Reason why I'm posting trying to either approve or correct the myths/misconceptions I'm finding before I drop serious cash on something that isn't what it should be

Edited May 23, 2013 by Torch

[HeloDude]

No. Again, just from what I've read. flame on with the "you don't know shit", now that I've ousted myself. I've only been considering it recently (hence all the website research references).

Reason why I'm posting trying to either approve or correct the myths/misconceptions I'm finding before I drop serious cash on something that isn't what it should be

Dude, relax. No one is 'flaming' on you (we save that for gangbangs with BQZip's Mom).

As long as you're not being a douchebag, just about any question/discussion is welcome here. You asked some questions which led a lot of us to feel the need to guide you back to the right path of sound judgement with firearms--no biggie. Everybody has to learn somehow and we've all been there.

As for the shotgun question, I think you received a lot of sound advice on here, and God knows there's plenty more of good (and bad) advice on this crazy thing we call the internet. It's always better to go basic/less expensive (I didn't say cheap) earlier on, and then as you get more proficient, learn more, etc then you'll determine what you like/dislike and can start making more informed and expensive purchases if you see fit. The cool thing about a pump shotgun is that it's not that hard to find a buddy with one and test one out at the range or something to that effect--you'll see what we're talking about soon enough. Same thing for basic pistols (ie Glock vs MP vs XD)--quite a few ranges have these guns to rent and you can check them out to make a better decision. Or like the shotgun, maybe you have a buddy with one of the pistols you're interested in and can try his.

Welcome to this addictive passion of firearms and shooting--be prepared to spend some money as you learn more and the addiction grows.

...side note--M2: I miss your weekly new firearms purchase postings. Now that costs are coming back down, I expect to see weekly pictures of new AK's that you will then subsequently lose in a boating accident the following day.

Edited May 23, 2013 by HeloDude

[Torch]

Yea, I hear you Helodude, just taking it all in right now (phrasing?).

I've shot all 3 of the handguns, I listed (3 different times) and as stated, the .40M&P felt the most controllable, and the better fit. It'll be the one I buy regardless. From looking at the advice here, I'll work on getting a pump and get the basic skills down before possibly progressing (long way off). Looks like the Remington 870 as suggested is a solid buy.

[HeloDude]

Classic Firearms have Waffen Werks AK-74's for $799 (+$20 for the plum polymer furniture). Waffen Werks always get solid reviews for 74's, which are still fairly hard to find. This is a good deal because it includes a carry case and 3 mags vs 1 mag and no case, making the gun go for about $730 which is pretty darn close to pre-scare price. I can neither confirm not deny that I bought one with the plum polymer furniture...

https://www.classicfirearms.com/ak74riflewusparts-549

[M2]

...side note--M2: I miss your weekly new firearms purchase postings. Now that costs are coming back down, I expect to see weekly pictures of new AK's that you will then subsequently lose in a boating accident the following day.

Unfortunately, I've not be able to find any decent deals on anything besides ammo and a few accessories lately; but not for lack of trying.

Also, I've got a 15-yr-old who gets his full license next month, so I'm preparing for the shock of adding him to our insurance policy. Plus, through some good fortune, I found an excellent deal on a fully loaded (all power, leather, moonroof, allow wheels, etc) 2005.5 VW Jetta that we bought for him. It was going to be a challenge finding a car that we thought was safe and that he liked, but we got a home run out on this one. It's a beautiful and nice-driving car.

Additionally, I just had to drop cash on airline tickets for the wife and boys to visit her family this summer.

Right now I am on the hunt for a few firearms-related items, those being...

1) Beretta Neos Carbine Kit:

2) A Yugo M70A (a 9x18 version of my beloved M57):

3) A Zastava PA M92PV (especially if I SBR my Draco using the Vz58 sidefolding stock I posted about earlier):

All worthy of being dropped over the boat into the Gulf of Mexico!

Cheers! M2

[HU&W]

Classic Firearms have Waffen Werks AK-74's for $799 (+$20 for the plum polymer furniture). Waffen Werks always get solid reviews for 74's, which are still fairly hard to find. This is a good deal because it includes a carry case and 3 mags vs 1 mag and no case, making the gun go for about $730 which is pretty darn close to pre-scare price. I can neither confirm not deny that I bought one with the plum polymer furniture...

https://www.classicfi...flewusparts-549

Nice score. I may be joining in with you soon (but I'll have to borrow M2's boat). I really like the fact that you can get ammo for it that's cheaper per round than the current price of .22. link

[PolyestherDuck]

I need to find a nice NFA Uzi...

[F16Deuce]

Has anyone checked out the Ruger 1911?

[Timbonez]

Has anyone checked out the Ruger 1911?

I bought the full size about a month and a half ago. With the ammo situation and most of my remaining .45 being HPs, I've only put 292 rounds through it. It is the least expensive 1911 I own as all of my others are Colts, Nighthawks, and Wilson Combat. With so few rounds through it I can't give you an honest assesment, but the construction is sound. The magazines it comes with are decent, but I use higher quality ones. FMJ and HPs fed fine through the pistol.

When I can get more .45 ammo at cheaper prices, I'll shoot it more and give a better write up.

[F16Deuce]

Much obliged. I'm very interested in the Ruger as well as the Colt.

[Timbonez]

No problem. Ruger did their research before they built their own 1911. I assume it probably helps that the casting plant they own, Pine Tree Casting, supplies Caspian's frames. The internal parts are MIM, which is typical for a 1911 pistol in its price range. I have no opinion of MIM either way. There are strong, well built examples of MIM, and there are garbage pieces of MIM. Realize that many modern handguns outside of the 1911 realm use MIM to no ill effect. It really depends on the manufacturer and their QC.

You get what you pay for, and if you decide to buy something like a Colt its quality will be higher than the Ruger. That's not to say the Ruger won't be a functional handgun. If you're looking for a high quality production 1911, Colt is your best bet. Springfield Armory also makes a good production 1911. I'll let you know how the Ruger works out.

[schokie]

(but I'll have to borrow M2's boat).

M2 doesn't even need a boat right now.

https://www.cnn.com/2013/05/25/us/texas-san-antonio-flooding/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of his most recent firearm purchases during the Great Flood of 2013. However, I do hope that he and his family have stayed safe (and dry).