Gun Talk

[brabus]

I’m hoping they take the NFA to SCOTUS and they strike it down. It is a gross violation of the constitution and not that it should matter, but there is objectively no evidence it has accomplished anything it was supposedly created for. 

[RegularJoe]

Has anyone used a linear compensator?

 

Is it actually quieter?

Do you like it vs a normal muzzle break?

[disgruntledemployee]

I just got an In Stock email from Graffs for CCI M34 primers.  I put the request in when they went out of stock when Obama took office.  That was about 16 years ago!

[nunya]

Surprised you still check your America Online email!

[disgruntledemployee]

4 minutes ago, nunya said:

Surprised you still check your America Online email!

On my 28.8k dial up running Win 3.11.

[brabus]

1 hour ago, disgruntledemployee said:

On my 28.8k dial up running Win 3.11.

The good old days…”come on come on, fucking load! Mom will be home in 5 min!”

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

The good old days…”come on come on, fucking load! Mom will be home in 5 min!”

I TOLD YOU NOT TO USE THE PHONE WHEN I'M CLEANING MY ROOM!!!1

[FourFans]

17 hours ago, nunya said:

Surprised you still check your America Online email!

...but does he still check his Compuserve account?

[Smokin]

Meanwhile, the young guys are googling to figure out what is being said here...

[brabus]

1 hour ago, Smokin said:

Meanwhile, the young guys are googling to figure out what is being said here...

The other day was talking to a young 20s guy about downloading music and explained how we used to use Napster (he never heard of it obviously) and his eyes about popped out of his cranium when I said sometimes it would take over a day to download one song, only to find out it was a bullshit radio edit! 

[FourFans]

Considering the Grand Power Stribog 45 ACP for a suppressed home defense gun.  Anyone with experience, thoughts or feedback?

https://grandpower.eu/products/product-categories/stribog-line/45acp-stribog-line/stribog-sp45/

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, FourFans said:

Considering the Grand Power Stribog 45 ACP for a suppressed home defense gun.  Anyone with experience, thoughts or feedback?

https://grandpower.eu/products/product-categories/stribog-line/45acp-stribog-line/stribog-sp45/

Are you a big .45 guy? I'm not sure if the increased cost is justified by the ballistics. And there are a ton of cheaper (and really cool) 9mm PCCs. That being said, that's a sexy looking gun...

I saw a bunch of the super cheap bulpup shotguns on PSA and ended up getting a KSG410. The dual tubes capacity convinced me. Bird shot and buck shot in one gun, selectable? Neat.

 

I don't have anything in .410 and I'm not at all crazy about adding calibers to the collection, but I figure I'll need to get .410 eventually for when my kids learn to shoot, and as a home defence shotgun, the low recoil makes more sense for my wife. For $350 (plus taxes and fees) I figured it's worth a try. And it looks like a space gun 😂🤣

 

[nunya]

3 hours ago, FourFans said:

Considering the Grand Power Stribog 45 ACP for a suppressed home defense gun.  Anyone with experience, thoughts or feedback?

I tried the same concept, but with a CMMG Banshee - also a roller delayed blowback. The recoil was much more uncomfortable than I expected. It just wasn't fun to shoot. (It was also totally unreliable suppressed, but that's immaterial since you didn't ask about the Banshee.)

I instead went with a 9" BCM 300BO pistol and a suppressor shooting 190gr subsonics and I'm mucho happier. The ballistics are effectively identical to 45 ACP at get-the-f-out-of-my-house ranges and it shoots oh so sweet. I also added a Superlative adjustable gas block that only made it that much sweeter with subs.

I love my 45 handguns. I'm waiting on a G30.5 right now. But for a rifle/pcc/subgun platform in this power category, 300BO is my hands down choice.

Edited Friday at 07:54 PM by nunya

[brabus]

My PCCs are fun to bang steel with, but not my go-to for killing (though obviously they can). Similar 300BO setup to Nunya’s is my primary weapon in/around the house…unless time demands I grab something different that’s closer at hand in the moment. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

15 hours ago, FourFans said:

Considering the Grand Power Stribog 45 ACP for a suppressed home defense gun.  Anyone with experience, thoughts or feedback?

https://grandpower.eu/products/product-categories/stribog-line/45acp-stribog-line/stribog-sp45/

 

I considered the earlier 9mm version of the Stribog a few years ago and the feeding issues due to the straight mag (theirs specifically) was a concern for me. No feed, No fight! They did make improvements since then so hopefully that transferred over to the .45 ACP. 

[Lord Ratner]

16 hours ago, brabus said:

My PCCs are fun to bang steel with, but not my go-to for killing (though obviously they can). Similar 300BO setup to Nunya’s is my primary weapon in/around the house…unless time demands I grab something different that’s closer at hand in the moment. 

I have the Rattler from a few pages back, and 300BLK is an awesome round if you are suppressing, but I'm not sure it makes sense when you are shooting at someone in your house where a couple sheets of drywall are potentially all that separate you from your kids. In that case, I think something slow and fragmenting/spreading could be the safer bet. But I haven't dug into the ballistics of 200+ grain hollow point 300 BO. Defending your property's exterior or a camping iyt truck gun? Absolutely. 

 

It's also for this reason that I still like birdshot in a shotgun as the primary self defense firearm. Buckshot as the second round for if you end up in the rare situation of needing a second shot, at which point you might be less worried about shooting through drywall. 

 

To each their own, obviously, but I do like hearing other people's cost/benefit analysis. I also have to consider what my wife is comfortable using if I'm away on a trip. .300BLK (and the gun using it) is a lot less approachable than the above shotgun where you just rack it and go.

[brabus]

@Lord Ratner
 

Depends on the bullet used, but overall 300BO is a great compromise between over penetration and effectiveness. Birdshot is completely ineffective (I don’t recommend the shoot at a threat to scare them gameplan, shoot to kill is the best game plan) and buckshot will penetrate way more than 300BO. Regardless of weapon, absolutely important to think through where the high risk penetration shot directions are (e.g. shooting toward your kids bedroom), where the likely points of entry for a threat are, and how you can maneuver to minimize risk of lining those two things up. Bad guy gets a vote, but still something to think through before it happens.

Shootability is based a lot on familiarity, but an AR is more “shootable” than a shotgun or large handgun for most people in terms of recoil, getting back on target after a shot, more capacity = less/no reloads, etc. Practice can majorly reduce that “shootability” difference for someone, but overall many women are going to be better off with an AR platform vs. the others. Their only hang up is emotional, which will go away if they learn how to use it.

[Smokin]

One downside of 300BO is round expansion if you're going the suppressed subsonic route.  You need to buy a high quality round or shoot normal supersonic speeds or you risk it not opening up.  I've shot a pig with a suppressed subsonic 300BO, heard the nice thwack indicating a good hit, only to watch the pig trot away like nothing happened.  My mind was blown until I looked more into that round afterwards and found it was notorious for not opening up at subsonic speeds.  I'm sure the pig died, but not even close to recoverable with no blood trail in a swamp.  If that were some dude that broke into my house on drugs, he'd require many more rounds to stop him.  I had that gun as a backup home defense gun and swapped out the ammo for full speed rounds after that.

I also had worried about rounds missing or going straight through a bad guy into my kids rooms, but decided after that I would just have to keep my home's geometry in mind if I woke up to a noise in the middle of the night.  Might be easier said than done in some houses depending on the layout.

Edit to add: depending on the shotgun, I've had nearly as many feed/ejection/misc problems with shotguns as I have with a well maintained AR.  So don't let the 'ARs are more difficult to operate' though keep you from using one as a home defense gun.  I think a good AR is absolutely the best home defense gun you could get.  Few bad guys will break into a possibly occupied house by themselves unless they're really high.  Then you either have someone that will take many rounds to put down or multiple bad guys to deal with.  Either way I want more rounds available than most shotguns offer.

Edited yesterday at 03:32 AM by Smokin

[brabus]

@Smokin Cartridge matters as you pointed out - I personally run Hornady TAP 190gr subs, specifically addresses expansion at subsonic velocities. A suppressor is also very helpful in a HD situation (or really any situation).

[raimius]

Have you considered something like 125grn SSTs?

[brabus]

I have some, just haven’t had time to work up a load. That said, they won’t be subs, and I also will never use reloads for defense.

[Lord Ratner]

12 hours ago, brabus said:

Birdshot is completely ineffective

Can't agree with this. Inside of 30ft (reasonable assumption if you're shooting inside the home) birdshot is quite fatal, especially 12 gauge. Out to 75ft it's really going to fuck up your day, but much, much less reliable. 

 

12 hours ago, brabus said:

Practice can majorly reduce that “shootability” difference for someone, but overall many women are going to be better off with an AR platform vs. the others.

With training and practice, absolutely agree. But I've found overwhelmingly that shotguns are more approachable, especially for women, even though I consider an AR personally simpler. Recoil however is a function of weight, and something small like the Rattler, even as heavy as it is for the length, has a lot more kick than an M4 with a 16" barrel. 

 

The.410 recoil is also very reduced while still being a fuck-you-up machine at close range. Personally the 12G recoil isn't an issue for me, but for my wife it's a huge difference. But like I said, to each their own. 

12 hours ago, Smokin said:

My mind was blown until I looked more into that round afterwards and found it was notorious for not opening up at subsonic speeds.

This is my concern, and it's been shown in gel testing. Problem is, gel testing just isn't as transferable to actual flesh and bone testing, especially at the fringe. I'd wanna see some actual testing on pig corpses (or living pigs) to know that a specific subsonic 300 out of my 6.75" barrel will actually expand. 

 

147 grain 9mm, however, will perform as expected out of the pistol-like barrel of a PCC, and will be pleasantly quiet with a can on it. It'll still go through drywall if you miss, but you don't have to worry about it zipping through the bad guy and the wall behind him like an unexpanded rifle round. 

 

But there's also a ton of research showing that the penetration of the different calibers ends up being the same if the rounds expand correctly. Similarly, the belief that 5.56 won't go through much drywall because the bullet is so fast it breaks apart isn't supported by testing. 

 

But there is one round that is meaningfully slowed by drywall... Birdshot.

 I think the conversation surrounding shoot to kill, shoot to neutralize, and shoot-to-disarm is not particularly clear in a lot of gun owners' minds. The number of people with punisher logos or "you're fucked" etched in the dust cover supports this... 

 

Obviously shoot to disarm is retarded, so we'll leave that to Joe Biden. But in home defense I am not shooting to kill. I am shooting to neutralize. They look the same because in isolation I'm using the same ammunition and aiming at the same body parts for both, the only difference is there's only one way to be dead and several ways to be neutralized, and I'm fine with any of those ways to be neutralized. And yes, birdshot is absolutely less likely to neutralize than 556, or buckshot, or pretty much everything else. 

But if I can pick a round that will still have a high probability of neutralizing the intruder, while reducing the likelihood of collateral damage, that's a trade-off I'm interested in researching further. Again, I'm going to aim the gun at the exact same body parts of the intruder, and I'm perfectly comfortable if death is the resultant means of neutralization, but especially considering that the house I'm building uses both slightly thicker drywall and cavity insulation in the interior walls of the bedrooms, I will have a setup where where bird shot absolutely will penetrate less than any other round, while still making disgusting bloody holes in the bad guy.

 

Again, many variables, but I think bird shot is dismissed too readily for the specific scenario of family defense in an American-built home. 

 

Also, I like that racking a shotgun signals to someone that I don't actually want to shoot that they should announce themselves immediately. It's more likely the intruder isn't an intruder at all where I live in Texas suburbia.

[DirkDiggler]

On 11/22/2024 at 9:41 AM, FourFans said:

Considering the Grand Power Stribog 45 ACP for a suppressed home defense gun.  Anyone with experience, thoughts or feedback?

https://grandpower.eu/products/product-categories/stribog-line/45acp-stribog-line/stribog-sp45/

Apologies for the shitty picture but if you’re in the market for a PCC and you’re open to different cartridges, I love my Ruger 5.7 carbine.  Bought it on an impulse buy post-deployment; super fun to shoot.  Almost no recoil, very accurate, fairly lightweight, comes with a threaded barrel, and it uses the same magazines as the Ruger 5.7mm pistol (I own one of those as well though I don’t like it nearly as much).  I put a cheap red dot on top of it and it holds tight groups out to 100 yards with training loads.

[brabus]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Can't agree with this. Inside of 30ft (reasonable assumption if you're shooting inside the home) birdshot is quite fatal, especially 12 gauge. Out to 75ft it's really going to fuck up your day

For a “thug of opportunity” who is actually a total pussy when confronted, sure. For someone on drugs/hardened, you are living way in “soft deterrent” land. Its far less effective than you think vs. those “real” threats. Watch someone take multiple 9mm or 556 and not even skip a beat as they keep coming at you - that will change your perspective.

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Recoil however is a function of weight, and something small like the Rattler, even as heavy as it is for the length, has a lot more kick than an M4 with a 16" barrel. 

My BO kicks as much as a 22…there’s damn near no recoil. A 12ga is magnitudes more recoil - it’s emotional, no 12 ga recoils less than an AR in BO or 556 (assuming you’re using rounds that actually will kill a threat)

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

But in home defense I am not shooting to kill. I am shooting to neutralize.

Dangerous mindset in my opinion. In a defense situation, neutralize = dead, not injured. If you’re going to point a gun at someone/something and press the trigger, you should only do so with 100% commitment to killing. If you’re not trying to kill, don’t even point the gun. 

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

to know that a specific subsonic 300 out of my 6.75" barrel will actually expand

SOCOM uses 300BO/7.62 heavily in SBRs for tight spaces (e.g. HD scenario)…soooo, yeah I wouldn’t be so concerned about it (with the right ammo). I’ve killed several animals with it, zero expansion problems (foot stomp, right ammo). 

You can find YouTube videos across the entire spectrum that will support or “debunk” any cartridge…I don’t put much stock in any of those backyard experts. What do the pros say, what does professional data support?

 

Edited 15 hours ago by brabus
Edit: Also, shotguns are a great choice for defense, so don’t want to come off as bashing them. Just loaded with actual killing power and practiced with (seen women shoot them just fine)

[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

For a “thug of opportunity” who is actually a total pussy when confronted, sure. For someone on drugs/hardened, you are living way in “soft deterrent” land. Its far less effective than you think vs. those “real” threats. Watch someone take multiple 9mm or 556 and not even skip a beat as they keep coming at you - that will change your perspective.

You say this, yet it is belied by actual testing. I'm not disputing that a meth'd out burglar can survive a few incorrectly-placed shots of any caliber (probably not BMG...), but that doesn't really prove one thing or another. Too many people in this type of discussion assume that birdshot at 20 meters = birdshot at 5 meters. That's largely true for 9mm, 5.56, 300BO, or even a slug. It's not remotely true for shot. Shattering the rib cage and embedding in the heart is going to stop a crack head. 

But like you said:

1 hour ago, brabus said:

(with the right ammo)

Paul (RIP) also goes over using turkey loads in another video. 

Again, making the determination that you'd rather have longer range, or a different weapon to wield, all valid decisions. But that's different than saying birdshot doesn't work very well.

It doesn't work as well, but it also is the only option that meaningfully reduces the chance of collateral damage from a stray shot, and effectively eliminates the possibility of shooting through the burglar/rapist and still poking a hole in a loved one. 

1 hour ago, brabus said:

Dangerous mindset in my opinion. In a defense situation, neutralize = dead, not injured. If you’re going to point a gun at someone/something and press the trigger, you should only do so with 100% commitment to killing. If you’re not trying to kill, don’t even point the gun. 

That's probably going to be fine if you live in Texas. But you don't want this mindset in trial. If you've never been on the other end of a talented prosecutor, you might not appreciate how much of your own words will form the basis for your conviction. It's not a pleasant experience. And you won't find and attorney who would suggest you say that in trial. I'm going to requote you to hammer in the point:

1 hour ago, brabus said:

If you’re not trying to kill, don’t even point the gun. 

To everyone else, don't ever say this. Ever. Repeat after me: I was trying to stop the threat. In the state of Texas you can use deadly force to stop someone from stealing your property, even if they are fleeing. Consider the jury sentiment in this scenario as opposed to shooting a 6"5' meth head with a history of rape convictions. 

Were you trying to kill the 16 year old you pointed your gun at, or just protect your property?

Being prepared to kill is very different than trying to kill. Anyone planning to use a gun to defend themselves, their friends, or their property should be listening to guys like Andrew Branca to understand these distinctions. No matter how solid your case, your fate is in the hands of a government attorney and 12 Americans who were probably too dumb to get out of jury duty. Start thinking, acting, and preparing accordingly. 

 

None of this means aim for their leg or any other such nonsense. But we don't live in the wild west anymore, and there are people who would rather you and your family be raped and killed than to have a "victim" of the system get shot to death in your home. Ignore this at your peril.

1 hour ago, brabus said:

You can find YouTube videos across the entire spectrum that will support or “debunk” any cartridge…I don’t put much stock in any of those backyard experts. What do the pros say, what does professional data support?

I'm not trying to be in SOCOM. I'm trying to defend my family and prevail at the inevitable criminal or civil trial. That's it. The ballistics are clear that in close quarters, birdshot will absolutely ruin a perp. 

And finally, the benefit of bird shot is when you, the defender, decide that the concern for inadvertently penetrating a wall and killing a kid is sufficient to override the desire for military-level mortality rates or capacity. I do not consider the possibility of multiple hardened targets invading my home to be realistic enough to justify making my primary home defense weapon a rifle. The good news is that if I hear the thump and I see multiple intruders on the cameras, I can reach 6 inches to the left and suddenly .300BLK has entered the chat. Or just switch tubes to buckshot.

Great dialog, like I said I love hearing other people's calculus. 

Edited 14 hours ago by Lord Ratner