Gun Talk

[busdriver]

5.7 is a stupid cartridge.  The PR57 is stupid like a fox though.

[Lord Ratner]

14 minutes ago, busdriver said:

5.7 is a stupid cartridge.  The PR57 is stupid like a fox though.

Yeah I'm breaking my rule about new calibers, because this is such an intriguing gun. It's a pure CCW gun, no other purpose, so 5.7 makes sense if you want to cram the maximum number of rounds in it. And once you're proficient with it, you only need to keep a single box of carry ammo for it, and you can just buy a box at the range when you pop in to stay current. 

I dunno, it might suck, but it might also be genius. I'll let y'all know when I get it.

 

If it was $800-1k I'd laugh and move on. But at $400, if I don't like it I'll sell it for $200 and call it a day, or just keep it in the safe to confuse people 🤣. 

[M2]

20+1 rounds in a top-loading auto pistol is intriguing, and at that price point it well may be worth trying; but I have never been a fan of the 5.7x28mm round. 

Sure, it will penetrate soft body armor than most handgun rounds; but what really are the odds of that being a factor in a self-defense situation?   Plus, my house pistols are only to get me to my Mossberg 500!

It can get decent penetration and expansion if you use ammo such as the Federal Personal Defense 40g JHP; but there are much better self-defense calibers out there which are easier and cheaper to find.  

As LR stated, it does have velocity, recoil and capacity in its favor; but the potential drawbacks such as over-penetration and cost would never replace the .45 or 9mm in my opinion.   

But at four hundred bucks (MSRP), it certainly is interesting enough to try if I ever see one available. 

My safes are full of firearms I bought just for the opportunity to shoot them!   

I am glad a buddy had a S&W Model 500 that he let me shoot, it saved me a lot of money realizing that particular revolver just wasn't for me!   There's not a huge moose threat here in southcentral Texas!

[Smokin]

I get the California thing (screw them) and I'm all for companies figuring out ways to expose California gun control laws for the absurdity that they are.  I also like that they are actually innovative rather than just trying to improve the same basic product that they've had on the market for 20 years.

But I don't and won't live in the Peoples Republic of California, so I don't really see the advantages of this outside that commune.

[AirGuardianC141747]

5.7 originally designed to meet NATO specs as we know to include the body armor parameters. Makes sense when those caught behind enemy lines could have a better chance of slowing down/keeping the heads down of the advancing party with AKs perhaps while their air chariot egg beater arrived. It was a decent theory and a good choice, but as said before there are so many choices of home defense, etc rounds it’s mind boggling.

*If you have access to the premier rounds to defeat body armor than it is undeniably a game changer if required. Extremely accurate, light weight, high round count, extended range and velocity have their merits and many have mentioned situation dependent. Fun is up there as well.

 

[Lord Ratner]

4 minutes ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

5.7 originally designed to meet NATO specs as we know to include the body armor parameters. Makes sense when those caught behind enemy lines could have a better chance of slowing down/keeping the heads down of the advancing party with AKs perhaps while their air chariot egg beater arrived. It was a decent theory and a good choice, but as said before there are so many choices of home defense, etc rounds it’s mind boggling.

*If you have access to the premier rounds to defeat body armor than it is undeniably a game changer if required. Extremely accurate, light weight, high round count, extended range and velocity have their merits and many have mentioned situation dependent. Fun is up there as well.

 

The obvious counterpoint is that the average self-defense posture doesn't include planning for body armor. And 5.7 doesn't have great ballistics. It doesn't have bad ballistics, but for the higher price you probably want better performance.

 

Against armor it's the only option for compact concealability. But I'm not sure how much I care. Personally, one of the reasons I carry is because I have kids, and the places that kids congregate have become (rare, admittedly) targets for the social-reject-mass-shooters. That's probably the most likely bad guy to have body armor in a self-defense situation... short of a Heat-style bank robbery, and I ain't getting involved in that 🤣😂.

 

If one can consider the ballistics of 5.7 "good enough" for CCW purposes (verdict pending), and we don't care about body armor, then we still have the issue of capacity. 21 rounds is a *lot* of lead to throw at a problem, and like I said, I don't carry spare magazines, and neither do most others. Going from 13 to 21 for a sub compact (and 13 rounds is a recent development thanks to the P365X) is a huge upgrade. And the ammo cost is mostly irrelevant since this isn't a gun to take to the range for a full day of shooting. 1k-2k rounds to get comfortable, then 100 rounds every few months to stay proficient. Some high-dollar personal defence ammo for when you are carrying, but that's (hopefully) a one-time charge.

So I'm gonna get it and see. I've got to do more research on the ballistics. I might just buy a pork butt and see for myself. I know the round will zip through bone, but will it just zip through the bad guy entirely? Not ideal. 

Then it has to feel and carry like the P365x which I absolutely love. With KelTec, who knows?

 

Also it's fucking hideous, but I feel it can get away with that for being truly unique. Besides, M2 proves every day that you can be hideous *and* useful. 🤣🖕😚

[DirkDiggler]

3 hours ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

5.7 originally designed to meet NATO specs as we know to include the body armor parameters. Makes sense when those caught behind enemy lines could have a better chance of slowing down/keeping the heads down of the advancing party with AKs perhaps while their air chariot egg beater arrived. It was a decent theory and a good choice, but as said before there are so many choices of home defense, etc rounds it’s mind boggling.

*If you have access to the premier rounds to defeat body armor than it is undeniably a game changer if required. Extremely accurate, light weight, high round count, extended range and velocity have their merits and many have mentioned situation dependent. Fun is up there as well.

 

I really enjoy shooting my Ruger 5.7mm PC Carbine.  Just a really fun gun at the range.  I don't like my Ruger 5.7mm pistol (both were impulse buys so I have no regrets, as M2 said above I've got several guns in my collections that I bought and was not impressed with for various reasons).  I don't use either of them for home defense.

  My buddy has the same Ruger PC Carbine chambered in 9mm, it got a tad more recoil but he pays about 50% less than I do per round so if cheap plinking is what you're looking for the 5.7mm probably isn't it.

[AirGuardianC141747]

Agreed, never stated 5.7 was applicable to normal self defense situations as it was derived for military use hence body armor not a normal civil state thought process. Most of the current CCW models are geared towards civilian defense measures and not duty criteria. While several sub-compacts have been derived from full size military versions these concealment versions definitely cater to the civilian defense market. Despite having a 5.7 from the original manufacturer many moons ago it hasn’t been a CCW for myself. With the major improvements with 9mm well over a decade ago I have stayed with it. Round count is your choice and during winter heavy clothing I prefer the compact types with 17/18 rds and my summer carry runs 13/15 rds among my rotations. Either way whatever you choose train with it. Better to have something vs nothing, better to be familiar and capable with it than anything. I always need to train more, unfortunately I get caught up with shooting the latest and greatest addition even though I do bring the carry options and shoot at least a few mags at my neighbors farm. Definitely not enough.

Side note only: Not many events on the blotter of those encountering body armor during a self defense encounter like Lord Ratner said, but if you want to defeat armor speed is king caliber wise. Rifles bring on a whole new level of penetration.

5.7 definitely is pricey, but there was a time when some could be had for $20/50 rds when FN overloaded the market with some now banned steel core. ATF put a stop to that real quick unfortunately. SS190 (restricted) or more likely the SS192 was controversial. Current lots are just sporting rounds for the most part.

 

Edited Thursday at 03:44 AM by AirGuardianC141747

[Lord Ratner]

13 hours ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

Agreed, never stated 5.7 was applicable to normal self defense situations as it was derived for military use hence body armor not a normal civil state thought process. Most of the current CCW models are geared towards civilian defense measures and not duty criteria. While several sub-compacts have been derived from full size military versions these concealment versions definitely cater to the civilian defense market. Despite having a 5.7 from the original manufacturer many moons ago it hasn’t been a CCW for myself. With the major improvements with 9mm well over a decade ago I have stayed with it. Round count is your choice and during winter heavy clothing I prefer the compact types with 17/18 rds and my summer carry runs 13/15 rds among my rotations. Either way whatever you choose train with it. Better to have something vs nothing, better to be familiar and capable with it than anything. I always need to train more, unfortunately I get caught up with shooting the latest and greatest addition even though I do bring the carry options and shoot at least a few mags at my neighbors farm. Definitely not enough.

Side note only: Not many events on the blotter of those encountering body armor during a self defense encounter like Lord Ratner said, but if you want to defeat armor speed is king caliber wise. Rifles bring on a whole new level of penetration.

5.7 definitely is pricey, but there was a time when some could be had for $20/50 rds when FN overloaded the market with some now banned steel core. ATF put a stop to that real quick unfortunately. SS190 (restricted) or more likely the SS192 was controversial. Current lots are just sporting rounds for the most part.

 

I'd love to see what 5.7 could do compared to 9 mm through some more plausible self-defense scenarios, such as shooting through a car door or windshield. I remember when 357 Sig was being touted to the police because you could shoot right through a windshield and still neutralize a homicidal driver, but that's just another caliber that ended up sacrificed to the altar of 9 mm.

 

I always liked Paul Harrell's videos, and he has a pretty good one on 5.7 showing that it is still going to fuck your day up if you get hit with it. Certainly to the point that I think it's reasonable to consider for carrying. But I don't think you can extend that argument to say that it is *better* or *as good* as the 9mm... Just like the guys who are carrying 1911s. Yeah, it's a gun and it'll work, but it's pretty hard to make an objective argument that a 45 ACP 1911 is a superior concealed carry weapon, unless you're just such a bad shot that you need the weight of a 1911 and feather trigger to hit the target, in which case, yeah, that would be your best option. I'm sure I'll piss someone off here who carries a 1911 with that statement 🤣😂.

 

 

 

It is truly incredible what has been done with 9mm though.

[AirGuardianC141747]

Great video. So many types of ammunition whether it’s in 9mm, 45ACP, etc I definitely don’t want be hit by any of it. If you can shoot well with it go for it. Useless to carry something you suck shooting with comparatively speaking like the 40 and myself specifically many moons ago. Several of my friends shoot it extremely well and I already have too many calibers to reach for despite attempting to keep my stash variety controllable which was a false hope… *I enjoyed shooting my friends 1911s, 2011s, etc and wanted one so bad until “Honest Outlaw” on YouTube went over the considerations on having one. I am rather stupid hard/excessively mean to my CCW inventory and do not have the willpower to soften my manual of arms to be trusted (Stupid me needs Stupid Simple to survive). Still will end up with one, but it will be a tight tolerance showcase fun gun to drool over 😉

Edited Thursday at 11:57 PM by AirGuardianC141747

[ClearedHot]

I have ARs, Pistols, Shotguns and long guns covered so on to the next gun quest...want an MP5 style weapon, any suggestions? 

[Cajun]

Sig MPX-K. Probably one of my best purchases, and a nice upgrade over the MP-5.

[Lord Ratner]

25 minutes ago, Cajun said:

Sig MPX-K. Probably one of my best purchases, and a nice upgrade over the MP-5.

I love my Rattler, but you pay a big premium for MCX guns.

 

If it's just for the collection I'd want something that looks like the original. The Zenith ZF-5 fits the bill

Edited Saturday at 01:52 PM by Lord Ratner

[brabus]

3 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I have ARs, Pistols, Shotguns and long guns covered

No you don’t. That’s an unachievable position! Your punishment for making such a bold face lie is to go buy another AR.

To answer your question, what are you looking for in the sub gun category - a fun and cheap to shoot range toy or something you may want to rely on for defense? Does it literally need to look close to/same as an MP-5 or just something in the sub-gun category?

Edited Saturday at 03:34 PM by brabus

[ClearedHot]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

No you don’t. That’s an unachievable position! Your punishment for making such a bold face lie is to go buy another AR.

To answer your question, what are you looking for in the sub gun category - a fun and cheap to shoot range toy or something you may want to rely on for defense? Does it literally need to look close to/same as an MP-5 or just something in the sub-gun category?

Point of order noted...I guess I better buy a third gun safe.

Objective is defense, especially inside the house.  I love my shotgun pictured above in this thread but my kid's room is on the other side of the house so I worry about throwing a pattern in confusion at night.  I recall the MP-5 when properly suppressed will not over-pen which is a great factor when worried about family members on the other side of walls/hallways.

It does not have to look like the MP-5, I am just familiar with the design and mechanics.  When I command the TF I was fortunate enough to have the lads spend time teaching me to shoot, clear, assault and run vehicle ops.  A lot of those folks liked the MP-5 because of reliability and balance, especially when suppressed.  I have the Ruger PC Charger but have twice had accidental mag drops when training on the range. 

[brabus]

Then I’d vote Sig MPX K for best off the shelf buy. Cons are meh trigger (e.g. mil spec-like) and you have to get an adapter to use non-sig suppressors, but both can be overcome/accepted (I can’t stand shitty triggers, that’s maybe the best upgrade you can immediately make). Similar controls to AR, so no real “learning curve.” Get a good suppressor and some 147gr 9mm rounds…awesome.

[uhhello]

Every time I get the idea in my head that armed assholes breaking into my house is pretty much a fantasy the internet shows me a current incident reminding me the chance not zero.  Kid got really lucky..

 

 

[Smokin]

That's a crazy video.  First, who puts a security camera in their bedroom facing their bed?  That's some kinky stuff right there.  Second, does show how important it is to train regularly with your firearm and think through likely scenarios.  Third, think this just convinced me to switch my bedroom defense gun to an AR.  Conveniently, we're about to remodel which will remove about 99% of the threat of missed bullets going into kids bedrooms, so no reason not to go with an AR.

[uhhello]

7 minutes ago, Smokin said:

That's a crazy video.  First, who puts a security camera in their bedroom facing their bed?  That's some kinky stuff right there.  Second, does show how important it is to train regularly with your firearm and think through likely scenarios.  Third, think this just convinced me to switch my bedroom defense gun to an AR.  Conveniently, we're about to remodel which will remove about 99% of the threat of missed bullets going into kids bedrooms, so no reason not to go with an AR.

Could be 'kink' or could be you don't trust your roommates 

[M2]

Saw this at a gun show today, a double folder has been on my wish list for years!  I may have to start a Go Fund Me account!

[ClearedHot]

On 2/1/2025 at 10:15 PM, Smokin said:

That's a crazy video.  First, who puts a security camera in their bedroom facing their bed?  That's some kinky stuff right there.  Second, does show how important it is to train regularly with your firearm and think through likely scenarios.  Third, think this just convinced me to switch my bedroom defense gun to an AR.  Conveniently, we're about to remodel which will remove about 99% of the threat of missed bullets going into kids bedrooms, so no reason not to go with an AR.

Are you building a bunker? 

.223/5.56 is a hot round and will easily penetrate multiple sheets of drywall (17 in the video below). 

What size AR?  I had several ARs (that fell into the Gulf of America), and train with them all the time.  They have a lot of rounds and are accurate but longer barrels bump into things in a CQB scenario.  As I mentioned above I am leaning towards a MP-5 type weapons with gas discharge suppressors shooting 9MM suppressed will down, it still has plenty of stop power but you have a lower chance of throwing rounds to the other side of the house.

If I wanted pure stopping power I would grab the M-1 Garand, but if I miss my neighbor down the street might end up with a round in his house.

 

[brabus]

@ClearedHot SBR/pistol AR shooting 300BLK subs. Keep in mind the 9mm is going to over penetrate just like the AR (or a shotgun) on clean misses. There is not a magic caliber that causes enough damage on good hits while also not penetrating sheetrock on clean misses. The most important factors in the HD scenario are practice and knowing where the area/directions are that you don’t want to shoot (e.g. your kids bed is on the other side of that part of the living room wall). A secondary factor would be where do you live (apartment vs. home on multiple acres) - do you have to account for neighbors? Pistol, shotgun, rifle can all be used effectively as long as the user is proficient and has thought through those “avoid this shot trajectory” situations.

Edited 7 hours ago by brabus

[Smokin]

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Are you building a bunker? 

.223/5.56 is a hot round and will easily penetrate multiple sheets of drywall (17 in the video below). 

What size AR?  I had several ARs (that fell into the Gulf of America), and train with them all the time.  They have a lot of rounds and are accurate but longer barrels bump into things in a CQB scenario.  As I mentioned above I am leaning towards a MP-5 type weapons with gas discharge suppressors shooting 9MM suppressed will down, it still has plenty of stop power but you have a lower chance of throwing rounds to the other side of the house.

If I wanted pure stopping power I would grab the M-1 Garand, but if I miss my neighbor down the street might end up with a round in his house.

Ha, almost but not quite.  The exterior walls of my house are concrete, so almost a bunker minus the windows and doors.  The remodel is going to put the kids bedrooms on a different floor and/or in an addition behind those concrete walls.  Also, I live on a fair amount of land, so even if a bullet somehow found a window, the chances of reaching the neighbors house are so low as to not make it even worth thinking about.  With the layout/construction of my house, I'm not worried about errant rounds, so I'd have the option to empty the full 30 rounds, then use the mag swap time to assess if the threat had been neutralized.

I'm still debating what round to go with.  300BLK seems to me to be the logical choice, probably the full up supersonic rounds as I think that'd give me the largest entry and exit wounds reasonably available for an AR and over-penetration is a non-issue.  Maybe on an SBR platform.  I got a couple free Form 1 SBRs back with the first round of the ATF bump stock baloney, so might just use one of those.  Guess I'll have to do some research to make sure they're still valid after all the back and forth the ATF has done since then.

Although now your M-1 thought made me think about my dream of owning a full up BAR...  No CQB or room clearing, just spray level across the entire house for a few mags and hire some drywallers to come patch everything up later.  🙂

 

[brabus]

1 hour ago, Smokin said:

Guess I'll have to do some research to make sure they're still valid after all the back and forth the ATF has done since then.

Ben thinking about that lately, can’t seem to find anything definitive (lots of speculation). Let us all know if you find any good data. 
 

1 hour ago, Smokin said:

No CQB or room clearing, just spray level across the entire house for a few mags and hire some drywallers to come patch everything up later.

[Lord Ratner]

3 hours ago, Smokin said:

I'm still debating what round to go with.  300BLK seems to me to be the logical choice, probably the full up supersonic rounds as I think that'd give me the largest entry and exit wounds reasonably available for an AR and over-penetration is a non-issue. 

If you're going to be using supersonic rounds, then it doesn't make a ton of sense to choose 300 blackout over 556. That's not to say 300 blackout isn't going to ruin someone's day, but the ballistics of 556 are more damaging in pretty much every configuration over any 300 black. Especially if you don't care about overpenetration, then then 556 is going to put the most damaging hole in the bad guy.

300 blackout is quiet, scary quiet, and not having to worry about deafening yourself while defending your home is one of the things I like about it. But 556 suppressed is still quiet enough that you probably aren't going to ruin your flying career defending your home, and you get all the benefits of the sheer ferocity of 556. 

If you absolutely need the shortest SBR, or want a hearing safe home defense gun, then 300 black makes sense. That's what I have. But if you're going to use super sonic ammo I'd probably stick with 556.