Gun Talk

[uhhello]

39 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

If you're going to be using supersonic rounds, then it doesn't make a ton of sense to choose 300 blackout over 556. That's not to say 300 blackout isn't going to ruin someone's day, but the ballistics of 556 are more damaging in pretty much every configuration over any 300 black. Especially if you don't care about overpenetration, then then 556 is going to put the most damaging hole in the bad guy.

300 blackout is quiet, scary quiet, and not having to worry about deafening yourself while defending your home is one of the things I like about it. But 556 suppressed is still quiet enough that you probably aren't going to ruin your flying career defending your home, and you get all the benefits of the sheer ferocity of 556. 

If you absolutely need the shortest SBR, or want a hearing safe home defense gun, then 300 black makes sense. That's what I have. But if you're going to use super sonic ammo I'd probably stick with 556. 

Auditory exclusion is a thing that has been researched and validated from what I can read today.  I remember reading about it in one of Grossman's books (I think).  Essentially brain shuts down your ability to hear and even prevents the damaging effects in high stress situations such as fight or flight.  Very interesting.  

Ripped from wiki:
This is due to the increased blood flow in the eardrums that creates noise, causing the individual to lose hearing of the surrounding environment. This can manifest as a hissing or ringing in the individual's ears which consequently blocks out the noise around them. However, intentionally/voluntarily raising your heart rate to this level through exercise may not cause auditory exclusion. This is because the increase is not due to rapid hormonal changes that trigger the stress response, instead it is a gradual increase in heart rate as a result of exercise, i.e., it does not "shock" the body in the same way we do when encountering stressful situations.^[8]

Edited Monday at 09:47 PM by uhhello

[ClearedHot]

8 hours ago, brabus said:

@ClearedHot SBR/pistol AR shooting 300BLK subs. Keep in mind the 9mm is going to over penetrate just like the AR (or a shotgun) on clean misses. There is not a magic caliber that causes enough damage on good hits while also not penetrating sheetrock on clean misses. The most important factors in the HD scenario are practice and knowing where the area/directions are that you don’t want to shoot (e.g. your kids bed is on the other side of that part of the living room wall). A secondary factor would be where do you live (apartment vs. home on multiple acres) - do you have to account for neighbors? Pistol, shotgun, rifle can all be used effectively as long as the user is proficient and has thought through those “avoid this shot trajectory” situations.

9MM with a gas discharge suppressor will make the rounds sub...larger mass but also large area to absorb impact on errant rounds.  The layout of my house puts my sons room in the line of fire if I have to fight out of the bedroom.  I learned a LOT training with the lads when I was the TF commander...I am still a neophyte but they gave me the basics to plan and rehearse.  Aside from internal house structure, my neighbors would have two brick walls and 100 yards of protection...they are not the concern.  I've walked through numerous times and while I am reasonably good with my favorite AR, there are obstacles that would prevent fully swinging the barrel around, hence my interest in an MP-5 style weapons that is much shorter.

5 hours ago, Smokin said:

Ha, almost but not quite.  The exterior walls of my house are concrete, so almost a bunker minus the windows and doors.  The remodel is going to put the kids bedrooms on a different floor and/or in an addition behind those concrete walls.  Also, I live on a fair amount of land, so even if a bullet somehow found a window, the chances of reaching the neighbors house are so low as to not make it even worth thinking about.  With the layout/construction of my house, I'm not worried about errant rounds, so I'd have the option to empty the full 30 rounds, then use the mag swap time to assess if the threat had been neutralized.

I hear you brother but two considerations...kids don't always stay in place and .223 being a hot round can ricochet.  Throwing a full 30 round mag inside the house leaves much to be desired.

[Smokin]

Since we're on the home defense theme, I think a lot of guys overlook or underestimate the value of the passive home defense.  For example, according to the FBI, a house without a visible security system is 3x more likely to be broken into than a house with one.  Additionally, over 1/3 of break-ins go through the front door.  Most people way over-estimate the strength of their front door.  In a previous house in a good neighborhood, I discovered that our solid oak front door had been kicked in before we bought it when I was doing some other repair work (previous owner just glued it back and called it good).  The door jamb is the weak point with most being made of fairly thin pine going with the grain so it is easy to split.  A simple kick will bust in the jamb and trim and keep the door intact so that it will more or less close behind the assailant and a neighbor driving by would never know.  Home Depot has a $30 kit that would make this WAY tougher and might even break a foot first.  Spending $400 and a Saturday installing this and some cameras will drastically decrease the chances you'll need anything we've been talking about.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Jamb-Repair-and-Reinforcement-Kit-59-1-2-in-Installed-Steel-Construction-White-U-11026/204254635

[busdriver]

CH, have you considered an AR in 9mm?

When USPSA added a pistol caliber carbine division some years back, people were screwing around with all sorts of stuff.  Basically everyone now shoots an AR feeding from Glock mags.

JP rifles even makes a roller delayed version if you want.  

[gearhog]

3 hours ago, uhhello said:

Auditory exclusion is a thing that has been researched and validated from what I can read today.  I remember reading about it in one of Grossman's books (I think).  Essentially brain shuts down your ability to hear and even prevents the damaging effects in high stress situations such as fight or flight.  Very interesting.  

Ripped from wiki:
This is due to the increased blood flow in the eardrums that creates noise, causing the individual to lose hearing of the surrounding environment. This can manifest as a hissing or ringing in the individual's ears which consequently blocks out the noise around them. However, intentionally/voluntarily raising your heart rate to this level through exercise may not cause auditory exclusion. This is because the increase is not due to rapid hormonal changes that trigger the stress response, instead it is a gradual increase in heart rate as a result of exercise, i.e., it does not "shock" the body in the same way we do when encountering stressful situations.^[8]

On Combat, page 55. I have a signed copy with probably a hundred post-it note bookmarks inside.

Accounting for the physiological effects of a high-stress situation such as a home invasion when you're trying to operate a firearm should be considered absolutely essential. Some buddies and I did a firearms training course with a pro competitive shooter a few years ago. One of the drills required us all to sort of rough-up (pushing/shoving/restraining) whomever was about to shoot for 30 seconds or so. Even though everyone knew it was "fake", it still got your adrenaline up and hugely affected your ability to shoot. Trying to hit targets before and after that "stress" was the most memorable part of the training.

[uhhello]

17 minutes ago, gearhog said:

On Combat, page 55. I have a signed copy with probably a hundred post-it note bookmarks inside.

Accounting for the physiological effects of a high-stress situation such as a home invasion when you're trying to operate a firearm should be considered absolutely essential. Some buddies and I did a firearms training course with a pro competitive shooter a few years ago. One of the drills required us all to sort of rough-up (pushing/shoving/restraining) whomever was about to shoot for 30 seconds or so. Even though everyone knew it was "fake", it still got your adrenaline up and hugely affected your ability to shoot. Trying to hit targets before and after that "stress" was the most memorable part of the training.

Lots of good stuff in there but I've found (like anything) there isn't a giant question mark on some of the stats he quotes in the series.  The physiological stuff can't be argued with though. 
Its pretty funny when you go out shooting with the buddies and throw in some mild physical movements into the mix and watch the heartbeat of the gun barrel.  

[busdriver]

21 minutes ago, gearhog said:

it still got your adrenaline up and hugely affected your ability to shoot. Trying to hit targets before and after that "stress" was the most memorable part of the training.

for anyone that is remotely competitive, go here:  Practiscore

Click on "matches" at the top.  This is the website that almost every competition shooting sport in the US uses to schedule and advertise.  Find a close IDPA or USPSA match and sign up.  Bring whatever gun and holster you have (no shoulder holster though).  Make sure you have at least 2, better 3 mag pouches.  Just buy whatever uncle mikes crap at the local gun store, they suck but you'll figure out what you want later.  Show up and tell them you're brand new.

Enjoy trying to reload those magazine after your first stage.

Edited yesterday at 01:50 AM by busdriver

[Timbonez]

Agreed with @busdriver above.  Shooting matches will make you a better shooter and test your skill on demand.  There’s a reason why professional organizations that use firearms in harms way hire world class competitive shooters for firearms training.  If you do go to a match, prepare to be humbled for your first several matches.  There is obviously a game to it, but the ability to shoot and perform on demand is universal.

 

You don’t have to be a member to compete at your typical local matches and folks are willing to help new shooters out.  Practiscore, as mentioned above is your best bet for finding a match.

 

 

[FourFans]

Not in the budget yet.  But this will be my home defense in near(ish) future.
https://www.sigsauer.com/sig-mcx-canebrake.html

[Smokin]

I've been trying to find an upper to modify my SBRs to be exactly that.  Just haven't been able to find an upper to do that yet.  Seems like every company that has figured out how to get rid of the buffer tube is only selling complete rifles.

[brabus]

@Smokin I’m always curious about a piston AR, but the pros over DI I’ve read are cleaner, cooler, less jams - things I’ve not really had much issue with shooting lots of DI. My curiosity is still there, but my gut says it’s not a significant difference/impact won’t be noticeable, so why go down the piston road?

Edited 13 hours ago by brabus

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, FourFans said:

Not in the budget yet.  But this will be my home defense in near(ish) future.
https://www.sigsauer.com/sig-mcx-canebrake.html

Consider the LT instead (I have it).

 

The slightly longer barrel is better for 300 blackout ballistics, and the gun is still really short overall. Also, with almost every suppressor that you're going to want to put on it, that extended mlok shroud won't actually fit any mlok nuts between the shroud and the suppressor. Better to just put a suppressor cover on the LT and have more options.

 

There's a guy on Reddit who makes some pretty baller suppressor covers for a good price. SWaller89

Edited 11 hours ago by Lord Ratner

[Smokin]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

@Smokin I’m always curious about a piston AR, but the pros over DI I’ve read are cleaner, cooler, less jams - things I’ve not really had much issue with shooting lots of DI. My curiosity is still there, but my gut says it’s not a significant difference/impact won’t be noticeable, so why go down the piston road?

I have a couple piston ARs, including a higher end LMT and they are great.  For sure they run cleaner, cooler, and have less problems.  Admittedly, the less problems might be the fact that they are higher end ARs rather than PSA types that some of the other ARs that I shoot often.  But for most guys, it won't matter that much.

The reason I want to get rid of the buffer tube is total length.  I'd love to be able to put a full up SBR AR under the seat of my truck or side by side.  Throw a side folding stock on there and you have an awesome do anything rifle/handgun/whatever the ATF decides it is this week.

[brabus]

For the size problem, you already accomplish that with a folding lower (buffer tube folds to side). No need for a piston to accomplish that. 

[Lord Ratner]

39 minutes ago, brabus said:

For the size problem, you already accomplish that with a folding lower (buffer tube folds to side). No need for a piston to accomplish that. 

Yeah, but you can't shoot it folded. Well, more than once.

[AirGuardianC141747]

Good point and on any DI folder it’s just a better way to stash them and nothing much more. Have a few DI types, but definitely prefer the piston for the true ability to continuously fire while folded, easier to clean, less issues if your lazy like myself at times cleaning wise and doesn’t really crap where it eats. Maybe a little weight up front, but during stressful times my guess is you won’t notice it. My cleaning schedule is twice a year at best normally once diligently doing them all for a few days. As many have mentioned before get a can no matter what you decide to use if able - I still suffer from hearing loss from mock clearing rooms at a couple of shoot houses with some Army folks in the early nineties. Multiple flash bangs being thrown around recklessly wasn’t a good thing. Did learn a few things though.

*Earlier last year my foolish self didn’t secure my headset quick enough prior to my bud popping off the 308 shooting out from inside cover. Trust me, within confined spaces get a can regardless of the ear attempting to block the shock and/or at least some good headsets by your bedside. Still have some impact from that stupidity. 

[uhhello]

7 hours ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

Good point and on any DI folder it’s just a better way to stash them and nothing much more. Have a few DI types, but definitely prefer the piston for the true ability to continuously fire while folded, easier to clean, less issues if your lazy like myself at times cleaning wise and doesn’t really crap where it eats. Maybe a little weight up front, but during stressful times my guess is you won’t notice it. My cleaning schedule is twice a year at best normally once diligently doing them all for a few days. As many have mentioned before get a can no matter what you decide to use if able - I still suffer from hearing loss from mock clearing rooms at a couple of shoot houses with some Army folks in the early nineties. Multiple flash bangs being thrown around recklessly wasn’t a good thing. Did learn a few things though.

*Earlier last year my foolish self didn’t secure my headset quick enough prior to my bud popping off the 308 shooting out from inside cover. Trust me, within confined spaces get a can regardless of the ear attempting to block the shock and/or at least some good headsets by your bedside. Still have some impact from that stupidity. 

The bodys natural response ONLY comes into play during actual fight of flight situations.  They have shown it only occurs in very high stress situations.  Don't want any confusion out there.  Wear your ear pro :).