Gun Talk

[StoleIt]

A warning about Illinois...I applied for my FOID about two months ago and I am still waiting...

This state sucks (except for the IVG and tax free stuff...but besides that it sucks).

[Guest Fogo]

A warning about Illinois...I applied for my FOID about two months ago and I am still waiting...

This state sucks (except for the IVG and tax free stuff...but besides that it sucks).

Spot on. I like the Veteran's Grant, and the tax free for military is great... Other than that and my family and where I grew up, I don't have much use for the state. The politics, to very much include gun laws, are a disaster.

Guess I better get on that FOID... Been putting it off since I'm not living in the state anymore.

Now I'm curious if when I bring guns into the state, if I am bound to the laws of an IL resident, or that if a guy with a Mil ID and leave paperwork is considered an out of stater. I know that IL gun laws state someone from out of state can bring a weapon in, properly stored, and go to a range, hunting, etc... Provided they are legal in their own state.

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

That works. Just wondering how much the day to day job brings you into contact with these issues.

Spooky

Sorry I have been away from anything other than a dialup connection for the last few days, to answer your question ATF handles about 70% of what is being asked about on here the other 30% they pass to us. That said most of what I see posted as concerns on here are non-issues, the majority of the stuff that my ATF liason and I work with are really people that do not belong having weapons or have a legitimate reason for the government to be hassling them.

It is simply amazing the number of people that commit a gun related crime then try and buy again. With regards to ammo as I said for anyone to raise an eye in our local office it has to be something that would not be in anyway construde as a personal purchase

ie. 10-20K + rounds of one type, high end AP, HE type rounds, odd caliber rounds, or the neighbors really complaining about a maniac firing something off that sounds out of normal.

Being in the aviation group most of what I go out to are cases with weapons attached to aircraft such as people importing Migs that still have the 37mm cannons installed (you mean I can't have a functioning 37mm in an attack aircraft, i don't plan to use it so why can't i have it? - direct quote) , MI-8's with hardpoints still hung, normal things that most of us would take forgranted need to come off but yes folks stupid people are out there.

Most of the guys I work with in both DOJ and Treasury are experienced guys all of whom are also gun owners so the majority of them are not out to get anyone and they generally give people the benefit of the doubt unless it is plainly obviously your a tool.

[JarheadBoom]

Being in the aviation group most of what I go out to are cases with weapons attached to aircraft such as people importing Migs that still have the 37mm cannons installed (you mean I can't have a functioning 37mm in an attack aircraft, i don't plan to use it so why can't i have it? - direct quote) , MI-8's with hardpoints still hung, normal things that most of us would take forgranted need to come off but yes folks stupid people are out there.

Funny you mentioned that - brought up a great memory of when I was in the Philly FSDO office a few years back getting signed-off for my A&P license testing.

One of the inspectors was on the phone with someone and I could hear his end of the conversation pretty clearly. He was telling someone (apparently with far more money than brains) that he could NOT keep the cannons installed on his newly-imported MiG, and that he'd have to come up with a W&B sheet to reflect the removal, and so on. This continued for a good 10 minutes after I sat down at the desk with the mechanic inspector. The assclown on the other end of the phone apparently didn't want to give up the fight, so the inspector ended the call by threatening to call BATF and ICE, and revoking his "warbird waiver" letter and the airworthiness certs on his other imported aircraft.

I never heard any more about it, so I assume the assclown figured out that it would be wise to remove the guns...

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

Funny you mentioned that - brought up a great memory of when I was in the Philly FSDO office a few years back getting signed-off for my A&P license testing.

One of the inspectors was on the phone with someone and I could hear his end of the conversation pretty clearly. He was telling someone (apparently with far more money than brains) that he could NOT keep the cannons installed on his newly-imported MiG, and that he'd have to come up with a W&B sheet to reflect the removal, and so on. This continued for a good 10 minutes after I sat down at the desk with the mechanic inspector. The assclown on the other end of the phone apparently didn't want to give up the fight, so the inspector ended the call by threatening to call BATF and ICE, and revoking his "warbird waiver" letter and the airworthiness certs on his other imported aircraft.

I never heard any more about it, so I assume the assclown figured out that it would be wise to remove the guns...

It's a little tricky because some of the early Migs (17-19-21) actually use the cannons for WB purposes but for ATF and Treasury the weapon must be made "inoperable" this includes hardpoints or any station that can hang or jettison an object. On the early 19 and 21's this means you have to cut and remove half the receiver which means you actually have to cut through the side of the a/c, usually ends up as more trouble than worth and people rather find a de-mil aircraft or some other meathod as if you remove the cannon and fill it with weight, normally it doesn't distribute the weight the same way.

[BigFreddie]

It's a little tricky because some of the early Migs (17-19-21) actually use the cannons for WB purposes but for ATF and Treasury the weapon must be made "inoperable" this includes hardpoints or any station that can hang or jettison an object. On the early 19 and 21's this means you have to cut and remove half the receiver which means you actually have to cut through the side of the a/c, usually ends up as more trouble than worth and people rather find a de-mil aircraft or some other meathod as if you remove the cannon and fill it with weight, normally it doesn't distribute the weight the same way.

Sounds like a pretty neat job! It is an aviation job primarily?

I saw a MiG at an airport the other day - I guess it never occurred to me that you'd have to think about the guns and hard points on these things.

I've met the owner of Dillon Aero - how does he get away with testing miniguns on privately owned helos? I would imagine that if you had the right paperwork it wouldn't be too much of a problem.

A couple questions about the "typical" BATF agent...

1) Are they "gun guys"? Do they like guns or do most of them just see it as a job?

2) Some people portrait the BATF agent as the next coming of Hitler's Gestapo - are they really that bad?

BF

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

Sounds like a pretty neat job! It is an aviation job primarily?

I saw a MiG at an airport the other day - I guess it never occurred to me that you'd have to think about the guns and hard points on these things.

I've met the owner of Dillon Aero - how does he get away with testing miniguns on privately owned helos? I would imagine that if you had the right paperwork it wouldn't be too much of a problem.

A couple questions about the "typical" BATF agent...

1) Are they "gun guys"? Do they like guns or do most of them just see it as a job?

2) Some people portrait the BATF agent as the next coming of Hitler's Gestapo - are they really that bad?

BF

I am a pilot and that is my primary "Job" secondary duties included some of what we have talked about and a lot of liasoning with other agencies as well as the military.

Dillon Aero is #1 a military contractor #2 has the right paperwork #3 owns his own helicopter that flies over his own range that fires his own weapons.

"Typcial" is a matter of interpetation as I have found out but to answer your question, most of the guys are pretty easy going, most probably have a shotgun and a handgun of some sort that is not an issued weapon, are they gun guys, probably no more than those here on this board. You could find some that really like weapons and collect till they are blue in the face, you have some that have what they feel is a necessity and that is it. I don't really have an issue with them, you have to remember that most of them are guys working for an agency and they do not make the rules but are forced to enforce and follow said rules, doesn't mean they always agree with them. Young guys who are just out of school and are looking to make a name are probably more of what your impression of them is, older guys who have been around a bit have seen what really needs their time and attention and focus it there.

In large are they going to kick down the door and take your guns, most likely not, would they do it if directed - probably but with some hesitation and resistance of their own. Best thing I can say is they are good guys for the most part and don't want their rights infringed upon any more than you do.

[M2]

Me again... Can't tell I'm on R&R or anything.

My brothers and I have an idea for a gift for our grandpa this Christmas; and some of you guys may be able to help. His great great (I believe) grandfather was a bodyguard for U.S. Grant towards the end of the civil war and during his run-up to becoming President. There is a picture in his basement along with the saber he carried on duty.

He is very very proud of it and if he isn't asking me about my service (and trying to explain that life as an enlisted Army man in Korea is pretty much the same as an AF officer in 2008) he is talking about the saber in the basement. My brothers and I are trying to find a replica firearm that would have likely been carried by such a man during this bodyguard service.

I'm sure such things are out there and I'm sure someone on here would have some ideas for paths to follow. I'm going to be seeing my brothers this weekend so figured I would get a head start on the research. Appreciate the help, as always, guys.

Cheers

Fogo

This is what I got from the Civil War re-enactor that I work with...

If he had a saber he was an officer and probably carried a black powder revolver, either Army or Navy. This link has replica pistols for the Civil War. A common model for federal use was the Colt 1851 .44

Hope that helps! And I gotta add, that's a helluva cool gift you guys are getting for your grandpa!

Cheers! M2

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

M2,

Thanks for all of the advice on the XD. I went ahead and got the XD 45 Compact with a dark earth lower for my buddy. I gifted this to him just before we kicked off my farewell party at his place. I gotta say he was ecstatic to say the least. He was so proud to finally own his own pistol. The only regret is that I drank too much Saturday to be able to go shoot with him Sunday, gotta love hand grenades! We've got plans for this weekend though. I'll still be shooting my S&W while looking forward to the XD. Thanks again, you should get a commission from Springfield for your fine advertising skills.

AMF

[M2]

AMF

Glad to help, and I'm also happy to hear your bud liked the XD. They are really great guns, and pretty much sell themselves...

Cheers! M2

[MilitaryToFinance]

Well I just found out there is a gun show this weekend near me. I'm headed out to hopefully find a deal on an AK. I'm a little concerned that the prices will have risen a lot already since election day.

[JarheadBoom]

Shotgun question, for something fresh...

I'll be passing through Incirlik in the near future (for the first time). Is "the deal" on shotguns there still as good as it used to be? Nothing fancy, just a pump 12ga.

Better to bring it back on the airplane, or do the shipping thing?

Anyone actually do this at Incirlik before?

[Guest Fogo]

Fogo

This is what I got from the Civil War re-enactor that I work with...

Hope that helps! And I gotta add, that's a helluva cool gift you guys are getting for your grandpa!

Cheers! M2

Thanks once again for the help! Very much appreciated. I've got multiple buddies in San Antonio and hopefully when I get around to visiting them someday, I can buy a for the king of the pistol and rifle advice thread.

My brothers are not military but highly supportive of what we do and very excited by the idea for my grandpa. Hopefully we find something that works and rest assured I'll get pictures online after we give it to him.

[M2]

An interesting article from Gabe Suarez…

Cheers! M²

How Long Do We Have?

I was in this biz back when Americans turned stupid once before (1992). Remember those days? Ross Perot - the little hand grenade with a bad haircut gave us Bill Clinton by default when Bush I did in fact give us "new taxes" in spite of us trying to read his lips. The backstory during Clinton's first half-term was that the Stockton school shooting and a few other similar events gave California (always a haven for left wing ideology and extremism) a perceived reason to pass their anti-freedom anti-gun law a few years earlier (1989?). Then in 1991 we had the infamous Rodney King deal and the subsequent Race Riots in Los Angeles.

All the usual suspects got involved (Shumer, Kennedy, Boxer, Fiendstein, and all the other let wing socialists in power) and set up the now expired AWB which was finally signed in 1994.

But initially Clinton had plenty of other issues to deal with before getting to that one. He did get to it - eventually - and before the 1994 mid term elections. But if you recall the fall out from that decission caused them to lose the majority in congress. Do we have a similar set of events today? How will this affect us? And how long do we have?

Some points of consideration -

1). The 1990s saw an incredible amount of growth in private sector training and gun businesses, while we saw a shift to the left in politics. These companies were around before, but the prevalence of the Clintons made them grow to an incredible level. It was during this time that Gunsite flourished, and that both Thunder Ranch and Front Sight were created - as well, I think - Blackwater and other training companies. We also saw a distinct shift from sports guns to fighting guns. Winchester model 70s languished in stores while AR-15s flew off the racks.

I think we will see the same things now. Obama (excuse me while I spit) has single handedly armed more people in the past week than any other president in history. These people have bought fighting weapons and the ammo that goes with them. Later they will want to learn how to use them. So "Thanks Barak!"

2). Ammo will go up. That is inevitable. It always has. But just like gasoline...it will only sustain at that level while people are fearful and scarcity-driven enough to pay those prices. As everyone's armory gets filled, the purchases will drop off and sellers will be forced to lower prices to get new sales. How far they lower those prices remains to be seen. A look at gasoline will show a similar trend.

The fear that Obama (excuse me while I spit) will ban ammo is ridiculous and will not happen. Think of the myriad of American companies that will be out of business. People like Winchester, Remington, etc. have political pull, and will keep their doors open. And still....when has ammo ever been banned in the USA. If they can't keep drugs or machineguns out of the hands of illegal alien gangs, how do you think they will eliminate ammo? We need to move on. What may happen is a curtailing of importation of ammo. American ammo makers will need to produce more "training level" ammo to fit the gap. Those that do will reap huge rewards.

3). I do see another AWB in the distance. But not only that. That they will try to do this is a given. I see them trying to target training schools as well. This is what he and his minions want. Not particularly to "keep their little urban hoodlums" safe, or to keep anything out of the hands of criminals, but simply to control the american people more and modify this once great society further down the leftist path. There wasn't much civilian gun ownership nor civilian skil-at-arms schools in Stalin's Russia nor Hitler's Germany either.

Now - before we get all weepy-eyed again.

The world is full of problems that Obama (excuse me while I spit) must deal with. And I thank God for every single one of them! The Russians are flexing their muscles in Eastern Europe again. The Israelis will need to make a quick decision about Iran before Obama (excuse me while I spit) is inaugurated. And he will have to deal with the fallout from that. Iraq and Afghanistan still remain as issues to deal with, and he will realize that his promise to pull out will not only be a slap in the face to those who have died there (a good many of them friends of mine) but it will also create a devastating power vacuum in the region that will inevitably be filled with Iranians. And let us not forget the economy and all the empty promises made with references to "spreading the wealth". Democrat economic policies always lead to ruin. The only thing that lifts an economy is a conservative-based policy and lowered taxes. So his results will invariably be poor, and he will not be able to confiscate American’s wealth without a serious political fight on his hands.

Assault Weapons are on his list, but not as number one. I don't think they are even on the first page. But they are on his list. My best-guess prediction? We won't see this until about 2010, more or less. By 2010 he will had two years to really screw up America, disenchant those who wanted "change", and things will likely be a big mess. Hopefully the imbeciles who voted for him will have come to their senses, and the imbecile Republican party will have come to its senses, and the Senate and House will change the balance of power as it did in 1994. And then there is 2012. We will see.

My suggestions...I have been inundated with emails about which AK to get and what magazines to get and so on. Gents...the word of the day is this. IF YOU SNOOZE - YOU LOSE. You can't get AK kits anymore. Those who waited? Too bad dudes...there are no more. Those who didn't get an AK at reasonable prices? Again...too bad dudes...now you will pay almost twice as much. But waiting, at this point, is simply stupid.

If you want a rifle...GET ONE NOW! Any rifle will do. Yes, I like AKs, but if my choice was a Mini-14 or nothing, I'd say grab up the Mini! If your wife or your mom won't let you, grow some hair on your chest and get one anyway. Buy some flowers on the way home to make up for it. Same goes for ammo. If you don't do it now, and you can't get one due to what we have just discussed coming to pass, or simply due to supply-demand issues, don't call me and ask where you can get a good deal.

Ammo? Looking at four years of Obama (excuse me while I spit) in office, I would suggest the following as minimum. 5000 rounds of each fighting caliber as minimum. Get 1000 rounds of good quality fighting ammo and 4000 rounds of training ammo. Use up 500 - 1000 per year to train (or less), and replace it as used - if possible.

Training? I understand that people are buying more rifles and ammo now, thinking they can train later. Maybe so. But here are a few points.

If you like WT and the DVDs and all the free stuff we share here, send some money to SI/OST. Support those who support you. We will see about offering as much stuff as possible, at as reasonable as possible prices next year. But understand that this activity is on their hit list. Do it while you can. Don't put it off thinking you can do it later.

I have been in this business since the early 1990s and if the country does not bounce back by 2010, I can almost guarantee that training will be gone as well.

So there it is. The time to check the life boat is not when you wake up on the bottom of the sea - it is when the rain begins to fall - and it has been coming down pretty good from where I stand.

__________________

Gabe Suarez

Suarez International USA, Inc.

One Source Tactical

info@suarezinternational.com

Office 928-776-4492

[Clayton Bigsby]

That 'excuse my while I spit' BS really takes away from an intelligently-written article - good content, but stuff like that places him with all the lunatic fringe kooks.

Oh well, I read it anyway. How much are used AKs going for these days?

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

How much are used AKs going for these days?

Last couple I looked at were $600+ for a decent version and they used to be more around $400

[slacker]

They'll come back down again, especially when the government "buys them back."

[Clayton Bigsby]

They'll come back down again, especially when the government "buys them back."

Exactly, which is why I'm considering selling mine...wondering what I could get for it.

Buy low, sell high...

[Guest Fogo]

Everything involved with the upcoming administration bothers me too much to even talk about. I look forward only to the entertainment value when his faithful followers are shocked and surprised when their lives don't become instantly better 10 minutes after he is sworn in.

On the pistol advice note... Anyone have any good (or bad) things to say about those boresnake cleaning kits? I guess I am slow on the uptake; and am just recently finding out about it. Got a buddy who swears by them.

[Gas Man]

Shotgun question, for something fresh...

I'll be passing through Incirlik in the near future (for the first time). Is "the deal" on shotguns there still as good as it used to be? Nothing fancy, just a pump 12ga.

Better to bring it back on the airplane, or do the shipping thing?

Anyone actually do this at Incirlik before?

No, I don't think they are worth it anymore. In 98' they were cheap as hell and well worth it. Not so much anymore.

Personally I think they are junk. JMHO.

[M2]

On the pistol advice note... Anyone have any good (or bad) things to say about those boresnake cleaning kits? I guess I am slow on the uptake; and am just recently finding out about it. Got a buddy who swears by them.

I use them, but only for a quick clean after shooting. I don't recommend using them in lieu of doing a thorough cleaning of the weapon; but they are better than nothing...

Oh, and I don't recommend using solvents and/or oil with them, because it gets really messy real quick! They are washable, but even then run them through dry...

Cheers! M2

[Guest soflguy]

Good to know... thanks.

I'm semi-thinking about buying a M4-style carbine, depending which way the election goes. I found the DPMS Panther AP4 Carbine. Looks nice. Anyone have any experience with DPMS arms or other recommendations?

Also, the locals say that the only range in CBM is the police station. Not that I mind shooting with them, but are there any other ranges that y'all know of? Thanks!

P.S. Kayla, go for the XD, either in 9mm or .45... he'll love it. I wouldn't spend the extra money to go for the new M series if your husband isn't really a gun conessuir yet. Just my $0.02.

Wildblue, if you haven't bought a black gun yet, I would recommend a Bushmaster any day of the week over a DPMS. I own a Bush (sts) after shooting them, DPMS, Colt, Armalite and was much impressed with the BM over the other ones. Actually I liked DPMS the least, it was very loose fitting and rattled around a lot more than the other guys. Just my %.02, but BM is definitely the way to spend your money... and offer 'em cash too, I save $100 on my black gun just by doing that.

Also, if anyone is interested in buying a Glock before Big Brother cracks down on them, I have the Glock LEO/mil discount sheet if you need it.

Edited November 20, 2008 by soflguy

[Guest Fogo]

A warning about Illinois...I applied for my FOID about two months ago and I am still waiting...

This state sucks (except for the IVG and tax free stuff...but besides that it sucks).

Mailed i the FOID application two days ago... I betcha anything I don't get it before the end of the year.

I hate that I even bothered with it; but its just easier when I'm at home visiting the family to have it.

[Butters]

No, I don't think they are worth it anymore. In 98' they were cheap as hell and well worth it. Not so much anymore.

Personally I think they are junk. JMHO.

Yes! There are a few guys who still swear by them, but I was not impressed (quality or price). It is also much harder for you to get them back now, unless you do the paperwork before you leave. Now someone will jump in here and say it is easy as hell. Well, I have been deployed to LTAG many times recently and have seen more people have problems than not.

[Guest Fogo]

Ran into a buddy at the range today who was recently married and finally cleared hot to purchase a gun he can keep in their house. I've got an inquiry for the gallery on his behalf.

He was basically saying he is looking for a 9mm pistol for home defense. At this time he doesn't plan on carrying it and its use will either be punching paper at the range, or sitting in the night stand. That being said, he wants something easy to maintain, affordable, straight forward, etc. Says he doesn't care about appearance if it can be reliable and affordable. (Not sure what affordable means.)

I said I would ask you guys for him. What I was getting from him is that he doesn't need it to be sexy looking, or have a handful of features he may or may not need.

I told him I'd report your guys' thoughts, as well as which XD M2 wanted him to get.

Cheers