Gun Talk

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

Ran into a buddy at the range today who was recently married and finally cleared hot to purchase a gun he can keep in their house. I've got an inquiry for the gallery on his behalf.

He was basically saying he is looking for a 9mm pistol for home defense. At this time he doesn't plan on carrying it and its use will either be punching paper at the range, or sitting in the night stand. That being said, he wants something easy to maintain, affordable, straight forward, etc. Says he doesn't care about appearance if it can be reliable and affordable. (Not sure what affordable means.)

I said I would ask you guys for him. What I was getting from him is that he doesn't need it to be sexy looking, or have a handful of features he may or may not need.

I told him I'd report your guys' thoughts, as well as which XD M2 wanted him to get.

Cheers

If all you want is cheap and nothing to carry, don't care about looks I would say Ruger, Smith, and Berreta are probably the more affordable for the buck. I would personally go with Springfield XD - 9mm in a 4 inch is a nice gun and should run about $450 - 500 which is about middle of the road for price.

[M2]

For about the same price you can get the XD45, and load it up with some JHPs and you've got a much better self-defense weapon. The 9mm is more likely to overpenetrate being a smaller round and therefore faster, and it does punch a smaller hole through the target, meaning there is less chance of hitting vital organs. The .45 is slower and "tumbles," thus causing more damage and decreasing the chance of going through the target and through the wall behind him. And this isn't just my opinion, I've got the offical FBI study that says all things being equal with the shooter (shot placement is the most important factor), it is best to to have the largest caliber possible.

But if he's only looking for a HD weapon, then a Mossberg pistol-gripped 12-gauge is a much better choice, and cheaper. Mine's loaded up with 3" 00-buckshot Magnum shells and even at close range (10-15'), it is still the best choice.

Cheers! M2

[Guest r6pilot]

M2 - Is that FBI report something that's available online or through other "means" only?

I'm wanted to head to the gun store here soon and pick up an XD 45 to replace my .380. A buddy is convinced having a 9mm with high capacity is better than having something with the stopping and damage power of a .45 or bigger caliber. I disagree with him.

Thanks.

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

Is that FBI report something that's available online or through other "means" only?

FBI_Handgun_effectiveness_report.pdf

[JarheadBoom]

Yes! There are a few guys who still swear by them, but I was not impressed (quality or price). It is also much harder for you to get them back now, unless you do the paperwork before you leave. Now someone will jump in here and say it is easy as hell. Well, I have been deployed to LTAG many times recently and have seen more people have problems than not.

Clears that up for me. Thanks.

Guess I'll just save up for something AR-ish or Mossberg-ish...

[Vandal]

For Home Defense, when in doubt... Shotgun. I have a 12 gauge 870 Tactical with XD45 for carrying.

[Guest Fogo]

For Home Defense, when in doubt... Shotgun. I have a 12 gauge 870 Tactical with XD45 for carrying.

On that note. Anybody have anything good or bad on the Mossberg 500 cruiser? They market them as their "Just in Case" series. 12 ga pistol grip comes in a sealed container with some survival gear.

My wife doesn't understand why I'd buy something that I'd possibly never use. I just tell her I hope I'm not calling in my life insurance any time soon, or the policy for if the house burns down.

[magnetfreezer]

On that note. Anybody have anything good or bad on the Mossberg 500 cruiser? They market them as their "Just in Case" series. 12 ga pistol grip comes in a sealed container with some survival gear.

My wife doesn't understand why I'd buy something that I'd possibly never use. I just tell her I hope I'm not calling in my life insurance any time soon, or the policy for if the house burns down.

Have the Mossberg 500 Persuader myself, haven't had any trouble with it. If you're using it as home defense you may want to consider the normal stock instead, especially if your wife will be using it. That will make it easier to control especially with the 12 gauge recoil. Several shotgun instructors also mentioned that the pistol grip can cause weapon retention issues, don't have any experience with that though.

[M2]

Fogo

Y'know I was gonna chime in here, didn't ya?

As I've said, I've got a Mossy Persuader which is basically the same thing as the Cruiser....6 shots, 18.5" barrel, I think the only difference is the stocks. Great HD weapon, load it up right and add on a light and laser and you've got one helluva blunderbuss!

But don't buy one and leave it in the box. Most ranges will let you fire them, go run a few shots through it to make sure you know what kind of kick and accuracy you are going to get out of the thing. Shooting a pistol-grip shotgun takes some technique, and it isn't as easy as the movies make it out to be. The 'Just In Case' packaging is a marketing gimmick, why anyone would need a "waterproof, floating impact-resistant tude with strap" for is beyond me! Go out and find a Mossberg at a local gun shop or show, and save yourself a few bucks; but they are great HD shotties!

Here's a quick pic of my baby...

She's a little banged up, but it is a utility weapon not some safe queen! Look at the end of the barrel and you'll see the SureFire 6P I have mounted with the 120-lumen bulb in it. Makes nighttime turn into daytime! And the BSA laser (a cheapo) shines a nice, red dot right in the center of the bright light, so I can still aim it.

And they are a blast to shoot slugs through! Be sure to pick up a box and try them at the range.

Cheers! M2

[Guest r6pilot]

Damnit!! Now I have two new firearms to look at.

Anyone have any advice on explaining the $1000 on the AMEX? Christmas gifts?

Thanks for the info, M2 and ATC.

[snoopyeast]

M2 - Is that FBI report something that's available online or through other "means" only?

I'm wanted to head to the gun store here soon and pick up an XD 45 to replace my .380. A buddy is convinced having a 9mm with high capacity is better than having something with the stopping and damage power of a .45 or bigger caliber. I disagree with him.

Thanks.

I like this picture for the 9mm vs .45 argument.

[MilitaryToFinance]

People love that picture because it completely over simplifies a much more complicated and involved argument. But it's certainly a pretty picture, too bad it doesn't really mean anything.

[M2]

People love that picture because it completely over simplifies a much more complicated and involved argument. But it's certainly a pretty picture, too bad it doesn't really mean anything.

Exactly, and notice it is always the 9mm fans that show it.

But the truth is that the larger caliber has a much greater chance of hitting a vital internal organ, not only due to size but also due to 'tumble' and the fact that a .45 JHP expands a lot larger than a 9mm JHP. Plus, the larger, slower round is less likely to overpenetrate then the smaller, faster 9mm.

Just read the FBI report if you want the truth.

Cheers! M2

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

Damnit!! Now I have two new firearms to look at.

Anyone have any advice on explaining the $1000 on the AMEX? Christmas gifts?

Thanks for the info, M2 and ATC.

A shredder always works

[HossHarris]

A bigger hole is a bigger hole ...

(it's odd how many times I've had to say that .... )

[Vandal]

On to a new weapon, does anyone here have a Springfield M1A Scout Squad? The civilian M14 with a 18" barrel. I am looking to buy a rifle in the near future and have had my eye on one of these for a long time. I do not want one of the SOCOM II or SOCOM 16. Too much proprietary stuff on it that has virtually nothing on the aftermarket and I can't slap on a 5 round mag and go hunting here in Idaho.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Vandal

[StoleIt]

On to a new weapon, does anyone here have a Springfield M1A Scout Squad? The civilian M14 with a 18" barrel. I am looking to buy a rifle in the near future and have had my eye on one of these for a long time. I do not want one of the SOCOM II or SOCOM 16. Too much proprietary stuff on it that has virtually nothing on the aftermarket and I can't slap on a 5 round mag and go hunting here in Idaho.

I am actually going tomorrow to look at a standard Springfield M1A tomorrow. I will see if they have any of the Scout Squad's there.

[Guest Fogo]

My contribution for the day before I head to work...

What are everyone's thoughts on the whole package (sts) that you get when buying the mainstream pistols these days. That is, who seems to put the all around best purchase together? Obviously I'm not going to buy a piece of junk because it comes with something cool; but it seems XD takes the prize between that nice case, and the two mags, the loader, and a holster.

Anyone know if anybody else comes close to this kind of deal? I only know the XD bit from the website; hard to ever figure things out at the store cause you just see the gun by itself. If 3 different guns are in the $500 range, and one of them comes with more shit... I'm inclined to lean that way if performance is in the same ballpark.

Have a good one guys... enjoy leaving those blues in the closet for another week.

[M2]

Fogo

Most semi-autos from the major manufacturers (SA, Glock, etc) come with at least a case, sometimes an extra mag. Those other items that come with the XD usually stay in the case, as the holster isn't that great and the only time I use the mag holder is during IDPA.

Go for the right pistol, and if any of that stuff comes along with it, then it's gravy; but don't let the extras determine which gun to buy...

Cheers! M2

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

I like this picture for the 9mm vs .45 argument.

I like this argument

Edited November 25, 2008 by AceTomatoCompany

[StoleIt]

I am actually going tomorrow to look at a standard Springfield M1A tomorrow. I will see if they have any of the Scout Squad's there.

They only had a standard M1A there, no scout squads. I definitly liked it, just pricey at that store. I'll probably buy one with a composite stock from an online dealer when I decide to "pull the trigger".

[Guest Fogo]

Took the wife to the range for her first ever shooting experience today.

I must say, she evidently listened to me regarding how to use it, the range rules, etc. etc. You wouldn't have known it was her first visit.

No complaints from her at all shooting my snub .38 She shot fairly well and said she had a real good time.

Little did she know she has paved the way for me sucking her into this addictive hobby. But in reality, my main goal was to begin to familarize her with a defense weapon.

Thanks to the guys that gave their advice on taking a first timer to the range.

[M2]

Fogo

Glad to hear it. My wife enjoyed her first time at the range as well. My next step is to get her a gun she'll be comfortable carrying...

Cheers! M2

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

Anyone have an H&K or enough experience with it to offer an opinion?

I am looking at picking up either the USP Compact in .45 or the P2000 in .40.

Appreciate in insite you have.

[Guest zookrider]

Anyone have an H&K or enough experience with it to offer an opinion?

I am looking at picking up either the USP Compact in .45 or the P2000 in .40.

Appreciate in insite you have.

Well, they're both HK's. Which means that mags and parts are redonkulously expensive and lower capacity than the competition, they've got the HK ambi-mag release, and polygonal rifling in the barrel (like Glocks) that makes them not work with cast lead bullets. Unlike Glocks, you can't buy aftermarket barrels easily or cheaply. Unlike Glocks, you can get a factory threaded barrel to use with suppressor. They both have a relatively high bore axis, increasing muzzle flip.

The P2000 is a little nicer feeling in the hand, and has the more standard rail. It's also got an adjustable backstrap. Theoretically, it has a bunch of trigger options, but I've never seen one with a decocker. The Border Patrol authorizes them for use.

USP Compact has a few trigger options other than DAO and a manual safety as option. Has a proprietary HK rail that doesn't work with most lights/lasers.

.45 or .40...personal preference.

I'd get the P2000. It's completely ambidextrous and lower snag than the USP. Works with normal flashlights.