Gun Talk

[Timbonez]

I agree with you 100%. However, that doesn't excuse the well-intentioned, law-abiding, gun-carrying citizen from the repercussions of errant bullets shot from their weapon. Criminals will commit crime; they will have guns regardless of the laws. However, it would be a real shame to watch a law-abiding citizen become a criminal in the squeeze of a trigger. IMO, if you want to legally open/concealed carry, then you must 1) realize you are 100% responsible for who you kill, correct target or not, 2) subject to all laws regardless of intentions, and 3) be required to receive annual training and pass annual evaluations. The way it is now is akin, IMO, to taking a B-courser to the range, dropping a few BDUs, firing the gun, then turning them loose in the Stan, alone and unafraid-not a good idea.

The carrying citizen in this case showed good judgment. I doubt that all 299,999,998 (minus Loughner) Americans would show the same judgment.

Good talk, good talk. Thanks.

1) Agree

2) This was covered in your first point and is thus redundant.

3) Disagree. That being said, many states who issue concealed carry permits require the individual to qualify shooting their firearm and then re-qualify when they need to renew.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Timbonez

[M2]

This "debate" is pointless until facts or other evidence are presented supporting the claim that innocent people are at risk because of legally-armed citizens. Discussing “feelings” may be fun on Dr Phil, but this is not the place nor time for it, so either put up some facts to support your clams, or shut up. Here are mine...

The “fear” (in quotes because it is unfounded) that a law-abiding armed citizen could cause more deaths in such a situation as Tucson has been disproved numerous times. It is anti-gun hyperbole much like claims that allowing people to conceal carry will increase “shootouts” in public. That was a “fear” raised when Suzanna Huff--who lost both her parents in the 1991 Killeen Luby’s shooting--fought to get Texas to issue concealed handgun licenses. She was in the Luby's during the shooting, and testified that she had several opportunities where she could have easily stopped the shooter had she been armed; but under Texas law at the time she was unable to carry thus George Jo Hennard was able to kill 23 (to include her parents) and wound an additional 20 before comitting suicide.

But in 1995 Texas became a “shall issue” state, and in the 15 years since there has not been one instance that I could find where an innocent victim was injured or killed by a CHL holder intervening during a crime.

However, in 2005, Felix Vigil was attacking his ex-wife with a knife behind a Albuquerque Walmart deli counter where she worked when a 72-year-old armed customer named Due Moore intervened and shot him, saving the woman’s life.

Also, just last week here in San Antonio, a CHL holder intervened when he saw a pit bull attacking a woman on the side of the road. He shot the dog and was credited by the police for saving the woman’s life.

And, as stated, there was a armed citizen who wisely chose not to use his firearm in the incident in Tucson.

Most states require training in the legal use of lethal force as well as weapons qualification before issuing a permit. Claims that they are “Dirty Harry wannabes” are utterly ridiculous, as evidence proves that given the millions across the country that have been issued conceal permits, these alleged events do not happen. They are the result of an overactive imagination, and have no basis in reality. As a matter of fact, Texas tracks crimes committed by its CHL holders versus the total population, and it has been found across the board that the former are far less likely to commit a crime.

Here are some more “facts,” courtesy of Gun Facts: Countries with the strictest gun-control laws also tended to have the highest homicide rates (source: Violence, Guns and Drugs: A Cross-Country Analysis, Jeffery A. Miron, Department of Economics, Boston University, University of Chicago Press Journal of Law & Economics, October 2001).

Brazil has mandatory licensing, registration, and maximum personal ownership quotas. It now bans any new sales to private citizens. Their homicide rate is almost three (3) times higher than the U.S. (source: Homicide trends in the United States, U.S. data: Bureau of Justice Statistics, September, 2004. Brazil data: Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, 2005.). Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the criminal (source: Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, Gary Kleck, New York: Aldine de Gruyter, 1991).

Every year, people in the United States use guns to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times – more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds. Of these instances, 15.6% of the people using firearms defensively stated that they "almost certainly" saved their lives by doing so. Firearms are used 60 times more often to protect lives than to take lives.. In 83.5% (2,087,500) of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first, proving that guns are very well suited for self-defense (source: Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Fall 1995).

Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of the Washington, D.C. rate. (source: Crime in the United States, FBI, 1998).

So go ahead and “feel” all you want, the “fear” of someone being accidentally shot or killed by an intervening armed citizen are unfounded. There has been little to no evidence of that ever happening, and statistically it is so remote that it would make more sense not to let you family ride in a car because they are much more likely to be hurt or killed doing that!

[Learjetter]

... However, I believe there is an argument to be made that all freedoms afforded in the Constitution have limits, and common-sense limits have been placed on many of our other Constitutional rights already, so I don't know why the second amendment should be any different one way or the other. Where you draw the line at "common-sense limits" is the question and obviously opinions differ.

...The philosophical argument should be: do reasonable limits to constitutional rights exist? If so, what should those limits be based on...?

Edit: back on topic, anyone wanna comment on a Rem 870 in terms of fun-to-shoot factor? I eventually want one for home defense reasons but I enjoy shooting at the range too. Only used a shotgun a few times but I know some out there probably own and shoot 870s and the ability to go out and have fun throwing slugs or popping watermelons is a factor I'm curious about WRT a shotgun purchase.

On the "limits of rights," I hold the classic libertarian view: Limits are the same for all rights: my right to X, Y or Z ends only when any of those rights infringe on another's rights. Universally applicable and simple. Frustratingly difficult to enforce/define.

As for the 870 Wingmaster: Great shotgun. But for just a little more, I prefer the Browning BPS series. I just like the fit/feel of the BPS over the 870. Really, it's user's choice.

[HeloDude]

Back on the real topic here of actual guns...M2, did you ever buy a Saiga 12? I did a search and you mentioned a couple years back that you were wanting a Saiga 12--ever get one?

I'm seriously looking into getting one here in the next couple of weeks and so far really like what I see. You can't beat a Russian made semi-automatic 12 gauge...especially with a 30rd drum!

What are your thoughts on the gun? I've heard from a few people that it doesn't shoot birdshot too well. What's a good price for one of these in your opinion? I've been looking at Bud's and Gunbroker trying to get a reasonable idea of what to spend. Thanks!

[M2]

HeloDude

Funny you should ask, as I was just looking at some my buddy Alex builds as the itch for one recently came back. Another buddy of mine was asking about a revolver called a Rhino, and since he is just buying his first guns I asked him why he didn't pick up a shottie instead? After buying a semi-auto pistol for self-defense/conceal carry, I always recommend buying a shotgun for home defense. Once you have those two bases covered, then you can start shopping for more interesting/collectible stuff.

I also recently saw a Saiga 12 with an underfolder stock that was tempting, but the seller wanted $980 for it and that's ridiculous! It's a cool configuration, and professionally done according to the seller; but I could probably get one just like it built for a couple of hundred less...

I'll probably run into Alex tomorrow and will ask him what he can do, and I'll see what's a good price and source for the Saiga 12s. He competes with them so they've got to be good, and I think they're running ~$500 which I believe it a bit high so I'd be interested in hearing what he thinks. The guy's a great gunsmith and knows his shit, and his advice is usually spot on!

I'll let you know what he says!

Cheers! M2

[BigFreddie]

Check out the new shotty from Kel Tec, the KSG:

New to the market, probably won't see it for a while. I think it will be officially introduced at SHOT Show...

and Vetter's list is right on the money. You need to be a responsible, even keeled individual to CCW.

BF

[M2]

HeloDude

I forgot, someone told me that a some of the BXs that carry guns (Barksdale, Davis-Monthan, Dyess, Eglin, Eielson, Ellsworth, Elmendorf, Hill, Holloman, Little Rock, Minot, Nellis, Offutt, Tinker and Whiteman AFBs; and Ft Belvoir, Ft Campbell, Ft Drum, Ft Hood, Ft Knox, Ft Leavenworth, Ft Polk, Ft Riley, Ft Rucker, Ft Stewart and Ft Wainwright, in case you'd forgotten) have Saiga-12s for $549. I think Elgin and D-M were mentioned, but can't say for sure.

The prices aren't the greatest, but no sales tax helps, as does some of those AAFES coupons if you can score 'em!

Cheers! M2

[Prosuper]

HeloDude

I forgot, someone told me that a some of the BXs that carry guns (Barksdale, Davis-Monthan, Dyess, Eglin, Eielson, Ellsworth, Elmendorf, Hill, Holloman, Little Rock, Minot, Nellis, Offutt, Tinker and Whiteman AFBs; and Ft Belvoir, Ft Campbell, Ft Drum, Ft Hood, Ft Knox, Ft Leavenworth, Ft Polk, Ft Riley, Ft Rucker, Ft Stewart and Ft Wainwright, in case you'd forgotten) have Saiga-12s for $549. I think Elgin and D-M were mentioned, but can't say for sure.

The prices aren't the greatest, but no sales tax helps, as does some of those AAFES coupons if you can score 'em!

Cheers! M2

Doesn't AAFES have a price beat or match program to beat anything off base?

[schokie]

I've shot my buddy's Saiga 12 several times. Birdshot doesn't provide enough recoil to reliably operate the action. I experienced multiple jams shooting #8 shot. But with slugs or 00 buck there were no problems. The semi auto action does a great job soaking up recoil. I could shoot slugs all day with that thing. Can't do that with my Mossberg 535.

Walmart sells value packs of slugs and buck in Winchester, so if you shop smart cost isn't too bad. But I imagine you're not looking to use this as a skeet gun anyway.

There's a crap-ton of upgrades and people offering mods for it. It's definitely on my list of guns to buy, but I've got a Garand and a few 1911s ahead of it.

[nsplayr]

This "debate" is pointless until facts or other evidence are presented supporting the claim that innocent people are at risk because of legally-armed citizens.

I never made this claim and tried to make a philosophical argument on the proper limits of rights, if any. I personally think that since there are reasonable limits on many of our other rights, the same standard can be applied to the second amendment, i.e. it's not some sort of special, unlimited right. Any thoughts on that? It's not really a facts-based argument so not much to present.

Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of the Washington, D.C. rate. (source: Crime in the United States, FBI, 1998).

Lol, while your stats are true the demographic makeup of Arlington is slightly different than Southwest DC. Just a thought. I was never for the DC gun ban, but gun crime in DC versus a gucci part of northern virginia may be due to other factors unrelated to the ability to own guns.

Thanks all for the 870 wisdom...I've never really heard a bad thing about the gun. The kel-tec shotgun looks intarasante depending on price...looks like a weapon from a sci-fi movie.

Edited January 14, 2011 by nsplayr

[BigFreddie]

Thanks all for the 870 wisdom...I've never really heard a bad thing about the gun. The kel-tec shotgun looks intarasante depending on price...looks like a weapon from a sci-fi movie.

You really can't go wrong with an 870. I've got a couple and one's pretty well modified and it is a great gun... The Kel Tec will probably be $1500 - or enough to buy about 4 or 5 870s.

BF

[nsplayr]

You really can't go wrong with an 870. I've got a couple and one's pretty well modified and it is a great gun... The Kel Tec will probably be $1500 - or enough to buy about 4 or 5 870s.

BF

Yea, it's one of those if it's priced like kel-tecs should be then it might be worth a look, but generally guns that look like sci-fi movie weapons aren't nearly as cool as they look. Guns that look like classic guns are kinda what I'm looking for in the future, i.e. 1911, 870, AK-47, etc.

[M2]

nsplayr, my comments weren't necessarily directed towards you...

But back to more important discussions, I am not quite sure why anyone would want to shoot birdshot other than shooting...well, birds! Anyone who tells to you to use it for home defense is nuts, well, unless they are protecting themselves from...(wait for it!)...birds!

I want a minimum-length shottie for one reason, to punch big holes in anything or anyone that threatens my family, me or my property. That's why I have the Mossberg 500 Persuader (pics on buried somewhere in this 100+ page thread). But I wouldn't mind getting a Saiga for a backup or even possible defensive shotgun matches (similar to IDPA, but with shotguns, of course). They have three divisions of competition (manual, auto and open), and my aforementioned buddy Alex has competed at the USPSA 3-Gun with this nice little number...

Here's a bud of his who also has a Saiga 12...

And another creation of Alex's...

I gotta admit, those pics really raise my desire to get a Saiga! The question is, which one?!?

Cheers! M2

[OL Patch]

Only ever made one comment in Gun Talk..and it was a smartass remark against USAFcrypto and Pancake...however thought I'd relate a story...last spring during my 13yr old's spring break...took a trip back to Oklahoma (born and raised) to pick up a 1966 Chevy C-10 pickup my dad bought off the showroom floor (picture of me sitting in it when he brought it home). He drove it into the barn, turned off the key, and walked away back in '93. This is the truck I drove in HS and College (GO POKES). We trailered her back, and been restoring over the last 10mos. As well as the truck, brought home a Korean era M1 Garand with bayonet--Dad was 45th Infranty Division during the Korean War--as well as a Marlin Model '94 sn#435433, and a couple of old late 1800/early 1900 shotguns. New guns are nice....old guns "in working order" are cool!

OL Patch

[Timbonez]

Only ever made one comment in Gun Talk..and it was a smartass remark against USAFcrypto and Pancake...however thought I'd relate a story...last spring during my 13yr old's spring break...took a trip back to Oklahoma (born and raised) to pick up a 1966 Chevy C-10 pickup my dad bought off the showroom floor (picture of me sitting in it when he brought it home). He drove it into the barn, turned off the key, and walked away back in '93. This is the truck I drove in HS and College (GO POKES). We trailered her back, and been restoring over the last 10mos. As well as the truck, brought home a Korean era M1 Garand with bayonet--Dad was 45th Infranty Division during the Korean War--as well as a Marlin Model '94 sn#435433, and a couple of old late 1800/early 1900 shotguns. New guns are nice....old guns "in working order" are cool!

OL Patch

That's pretty sweet. Do you have any pics of the M1? Which manufacturer? I have a Harrington and Richardson that I dated to being produced during the Korean war. Most of the parts match and the furniture isn't original, but I don't really care about that as long as it shoots.

[OL Patch]

Let me go look....after I get done watching your Avatar...again, and again, and again......

Top stamp says:

U.S. RIFLE

Cal .30 M1

SPRINGFIELD

ARMORY

2551503

What's cool is I have his original ammo sling with clips and ammo...don't think I'll be firing those...but still nice to have. If you've never handled an M1...WATCH your thumb...it'll take it off when you slam a new clip in.....

[BigFreddie]

Let me go look....after I get done watching your Avatar...again, and again, and again......

Top stamp says:

U.S. RIFLE

Cal .30 M1

SPRINGFIELD

ARMORY

2551503

What's cool is I have his original ammo sling with clips and ammo...don't think I'll be firing those...but still nice to have. If you've never handled an M1...WATCH your thumb...it'll take it off when you slam a new clip in.....

According to this website: HERE that serial number was produced in January 1944.

You gotta love the M-1 Garand... Very distinctive ping!

[OL Patch]

It does have the ping...as my Dad relates....what's interesting to me is a rifle he carried in the Korean War...probably had an earlier history. He was just here for Christmas...have to ask him about his personal connection with the M1...probably be like squeezing blood from a turnip though...took til I was off flying fighters before he would tell me Korea stories...most started with "It was frickin COLD"..."don't ever be a gravel agitator--fly planes, drink at the club, that's the life"...and....."don't ever try to wake me up with a touch--stand 10feet away and yell DAD!" Learned that one the hard way at 12.....once you're in a foxhole in Korea, asleep, "DON'T TOUCH!" He'll come up swingin.

OL Patch

Missed an "...should have put in ppt for BQZip01..sorry...not really!

Edited January 15, 2011 by OL Patch

[BigFreddie]

It does have the ping...as my Dad relates....what's interesting to me is a rifle he carried in the Korean War...probably had an earlier history. He was just here for Christmas...have to ask him about his personal connection with the M1...probably be like squeezing blood from a turnip though...took til I was off flying fighters before he would tell me Korea stories...most started with "It was frickin COLD"..."don't ever be a gravel agitator--fly planes, drink at the club, that's the life"...and....."don't ever try to wake me up with a touch--stand 10feet away and yell DAD!" Learned that one the hard way at 12.....once you're in a foxhole in Korea, asleep, "DON'T TOUCH!" He'll come up swingin.

OL Patch

Missed an "...should have put in ppt for BQZip01..sorry...not really!

That's pretty awesome... The history would be great to have from your Dad.

IF you decide to shoot it, get ammo from the CMP or at least make sure it is designed for the Garand Federal is making some specifically for the Garand under its American Eagle line. Shooting the Garand with heavy weight 30-06 hunting ammo can damage it...

BF

[Timbonez]

That's pretty awesome... The history would be great to have from your Dad.

IF you decide to shoot it, get ammo from the CMP or at least make sure it is designed for the Garand Federal is making some specifically for the Garand under its American Eagle line. Shooting the Garand with heavy weight 30-06 hunting ammo can damage it...

BF

This is true, but you can also get an adjustable gas plug that will allow you to use heavier bullets. Here and Here.

Quick Gen4 Glock 17 update:

I went Glocking this morning with temps hanging around the mid-teens and light snow. I thought I'd be the only idiot there, but there was a guy shooting a rifle near me. Anyway I brought 300 PPU 115gr FMJs (thankfully this was the last of this crap ammo), 51 Remington Golden Saber 147gr HPJs (I love this ammo), and 21 Federal 147gr Hydra-Shoks. I fired the 72 hollowpoints first with no trouble at all. Feeding was smooth and ejection was strong and consistent. The PPU was still giving me problems, but only during the last 150 rounds. This ammo is VERY weak overall, but that doesn't seem to bother the Glock so much. What the Glock does choke on is the inconsistent powder loads from cartridge to cartridge. During the course of fire I had 3 FTEs and 4 FTFs with the PPU ammo. With the FTEs I could feel the shots were even weaker than the rest of the ammo. The FTFs are also due to weak ammo. They at least eject, but the rearward movement of the slide isn't far enough to provide enough forward momentum for the recoil spring assembly. This causes the cartridge to start feeding on the ramp but then get get stuck at the beginning of the chamber at the top of the barrel hood. Like I said the PPU 9mm is inconsistent shot to shot. Felt recoil was all over the place, indicating poor quality control with this type of ammo. Another vice of the 9mm PPU is that it is extremely dirty. I don't think I've ever used any other brand handgun ammo, in any caliber, that is so filthy. In the past I've used PPU 5.56/.223 ammo for my ARs with no problems, but now I think I am just going to avoid that brand altogether. Luckily I have 1000 rounds of 9mm PMC 115gr FMJs that will be here Tuesday, and I'm also going to head to Wally World this weekend and pick up some WWB to test them. I'm expecting better results with these brands, but who knows what will happen? The Glock has a very strong recoil spring, which defensive loads don't seem to mind at all, but weaker range ammo seems to hiccup.

In 2 Ranges sessions I've fired:

500 FMJs

153 Remington Golden Saber HPJs

21 Federal Premium Hydra-Shoks

674 total rounds fired

As mentioned before the gun was wiped down and lubed prior to the first range session. No additional cleaning, lubrication, or other preventative maintenance has been performed. I'll keep it that way, until I'm satisfied it is a reliable duty/defensive handgun.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Timbonez

[HeloDude]

HeloDude

I forgot, someone told me that a some of the BXs that carry guns (Barksdale, Davis-Monthan, Dyess, Eglin, Eielson, Ellsworth, Elmendorf, Hill, Holloman, Little Rock, Minot, Nellis, Offutt, Tinker and Whiteman AFBs; and Ft Belvoir, Ft Campbell, Ft Drum, Ft Hood, Ft Knox, Ft Leavenworth, Ft Polk, Ft Riley, Ft Rucker, Ft Stewart and Ft Wainwright, in case you'd forgotten) have Saiga-12s for $549. I think Elgin and D-M were mentioned, but can't say for sure.

The prices aren't the greatest, but no sales tax helps, as does some of those AAFES coupons if you can score 'em!

Cheers! M2

Thanks for the update on the Saiga-12! I called the Holloman AAFES gun shop this week and they told me their supplier carries them, just none in stock but will be getting some in soon, which works because I'll be TDY there in Feb. He didn't give me a price but I'll get that next week and decide if I want to wait to get it from the BX. If it doesn't look good then I'll look into getting it from Bud's, Gunbroker, or some other place similar.

Awesome pics you posted from your buddy Alex--have you talked to him and gotten an idea of what his price is? I'm assuming these are with accessories?

[M2]

Awesome pics you posted from your buddy Alex--have you talked to him and gotten an idea of what his price is? I'm assuming these are with accessories?

I did chat with him a bit of Friday, he says his mods are about $300 above the price of the gun; but knowing him it's worth every penny! The guy's not in it for the money, he's one of those guys that really loves firearms and making them better. He's a bigger gun nut than I am! He did quote me on his cost for a standard Saiga-12, I don't really want to repeat it on here in that he may have meant it for me only but if you're interested drop him a line.

That said, something has popped back up on my radar that may preempt my purchasing a Saiga-12; that being a Romanian FPK-style DMR by TGI with a 24" barrel...

Given all the 7.62x54R ammo I have for my Mosins, it would make more sense to pick one of these up versus a PSL (which I don't like the Dragunov stock too much).

So once again I am torn between several guns to buy. I still would like to pick up a Yugo M76 one of these days but many of those had issues that I don't feel like dealing with. The above FPK is most likely going to be my next acquisition, though...and I will also have to find a good scope for it!

Cheers! M2

[disgruntledemployee]

... I called the Holloman AAFES gun shop this week and they told me their supplier carries them, just none in stock but will be getting some in soon, which works because I'll be TDY there in Feb. ...

I've purchased from two different mil exchange shops and they want to see your PCS orders. So going there TDY may not work.

Out

[brickhistory]

Walther P99 AS in 9mm

note: Not my photo

Before getting to my review of my P99, a quick, probably superflous lesson learned:

Watcht the F*&K out for noobs at the range!

I've nothing against new guys learning to shoot, in fact I encourage such. But if you don't know what you are doing, please don't try to fake it. If you are shooting besides such, keep your skull on a swivel.

Went this morning, guy beside me has the blue plastic bucket which signifies he's using their guns. Looks like he's got a SIG something and a 1911, both in 9mm. Ok, no worries so far. Lots of delays/stutter starts in loading his magazines, readying the weapon, etc, etc., enough to make my spidey senses start tingling.

After about 10 minutes, I see him put down the 1911 after shooting a couple of shots from his current magazine. He puts it down hammer back, no safety and in the middle of the bench while he then starts fumbling with the other pistol. After about a second of delay considering being a d1ck or not, I put my gun down, exit my lane, and catch his attention. I tell him I don't want to be a jerk, but that I think he put down his weapon in an unsafe condition and was he aware of it? (I'm not wanting to get the RSO involved ((which is another discussion, he should've already been involved)), but that what he was doing was unsafe. Fortunately, the guy took the criticism well and I wound up giving an impromptu safety and operation lesson. I can see, however, someone too full of themselves to take such intrusion. In that case, it's for the RSO/range to deal with, but damned if I'm gonna get shot due to someone else's stupidity and/or inexperience.

In other words, if you don't know what you are doing or how it works, figure it out before arriving at the range or ask.

The range should never have let him rent without ensuring he knew how to operate both guns. It's all fun and games (and profit) until someone puts an eye out.

And now back to the review:

After working my way up the Walther polymer pistol ladder, I finally got via Bud's ($551 + $30 FFL transfer fee) the P99 AS in 9mm I've been lusting after.

The gun comes in a plastic, foam cut case with a plastic cleaning rod, two 15 round magazines, three grip backstraps (S,M,L), and three front sights, a lock, and a fired casing. It also has the target enclosed from where it was test-fired at the factory. My "schutze" was named Ronelhabs and at 25 meters hit 5 shots center ring, lower half.

The "AS" stands for "anti-stress" in the marketing literature, but means essentially the first shot is traditional double action, the rest are single action.

This is a polymer-frame, steel slide, internal striker fired pistol. The first time I ever fondled one in a store, I knew I wanted one due to the just great feel of the grip. I'm certainly late to the polymer pistol party and adjustable grips, but I liked this one for quite a while. Surprisingly, the large backstrap was too big for me and the medium works just fine.

The three dot white sights are good, the gun points very easily, it's light, but big enough to come back quickly for follow up shots.

The magazine releases from the now-standard to me Walther design consisting of the back third of the trigger guard. The slide release (yea! The damned PK380 I wrote about earlier doesn't have one) is in the standard position and easily reachable with the shooting hand thumb.

There is no safety per se. There is a decocking button on the top of the slide, but you either have to turn your gun hand into a funky position and move the pistol from pointing forward or use the non-shooting hand. The first shot after decocking is now double-action which means a long trigger pull. You've gotta mean it for that long a pull hence, I guess, the "AS" moniker. If you are in single action mode, there is a red pin pointing at you from the back of the slide. You can see it easily and feel it at night if need be.

The specs of the gun:

Barrel Length: 4 inches

Dimensions:

Length: 7.1 inches

Height: 5.3 inches

Width: 1.3 inches

Weight: 21.2 ounces

Eyeball comparing it to my Government Model 1911, it's about 1.5 inches shorter lengthwise, about 3/4" shorter in height. Curiously, it's about 1/8th-ish of inch wider than the Colt. While this could be a good concealed carry gun, it's a little on the long side for that for me. As it was designed for a service weapon for some of the German police departments it is better suited for that role than as a covert gun. Although, {GEEK ALERT!}, it is the new 007 gun. Helluva jump in size from the PPK to this under a tux. Bond must be getting a gut...

Again, the slide is milled into this rounded triangle shape that just looks cool, all panzer-like. The chamber on the P99 is beveled to match the shape and compliments the lines so much better than leaving it square like a lot of other semi-autos do, but again, that's looks, not performance.

I put 200 rounds of Federal 115 gr. FMJ ball ammo and 25 rounds of Remington Golden Saber 147 gr. hollow point and it never skipped a beat.

As noted, the first double action is both long and heavy (sts) with the single action pulls crisp and short. I was shooting all 8 rings from 25 yards down to 10 ring at 10 and 5 yards, both two-handed rapid fire and one-handed slow aim fire.

Something new for me and having 15 rounds available was my experiment in just pulling as rapidly as possible. The string looked like a Thompson submachine gun spray. Climbed from the 10 ring all the way up into the throat.

Field stripping and cleaning it was very straightforward. Push the retaining ring down, push the slide forward, take the spring and guide rod out of the slide, pull the barrel, and that's it. So simple like it should be. No extra keys required, no additional tools either. If they can do this for the full-size P99, why couldn't they do that for the sibling P22 and PK380?

Pros:

- Most comfortable pistol I've ever shot

- Simple, clean, elegant engineering and lines

- Good on-line reviews and performance today with those 200+ rounds

- I like the decocker button except for the placement, but that does keep the lines clean.

- The P22 is the 3/4 scale version of the pistol and allows for even more cheap muscle-memory practice although the 9mm certainly is not that expensive either.

Cons:

- 9mm. Although 15 in a double stack is a lot of rounds, I'm still a believer in that anything over one or two fired and my day is gonna be bad. All things being equal, I'd like a bigger bullet. Note, it does come in .40, but I wanted the 9mm as I probably will get other 9mm's so wanted to keep ammo logistics simple (yeah, right...)

- Starting to get a bit dated in technology. The original design was late 1990s and has morphed into the SW99 (same clips) and the SW M&P series. I've heard that Walther is coming out with something new next year or so.

Overall, I really, really like this pistol. My only complaint is that it is not in .45 ACP.

I think I'm out of the acquisition phase for bit because I'm having a custom made gun cabinet built. The three sizes of Walther will look really good in there, but that's not why I bought them. Just got on a Walther kick and can't seem to shake it. My next might be a PPK/S in .380, but I'm still waffling on that one.

Edited January 16, 2011 by brickhistory

[HeloDude]

I've purchased from two different mil exchange shops and they want to see your PCS orders. So going there TDY may not work.

Out

You're exactly right man...fortunately I'm stationed in New Mexico. I've already purchased a firearm from Holloman when I was TDY there in the past. Thanks for keeping me honest though.