Gun Talk

[M2]

I'm looking into buying my first handgun right now as well. I think I've narrowed it down to either the Sig P229 or the XD. Here are my main considerations:

1. Shoot-ability. I have shot the 229 (but not the XD), and the DA on the first pull was quite long and heavy (sts). The trigger on the XD felt lighter and shorter in the store, which would make multiple shots easier to get off rapidly if need be I think. That being said, I got good groupings with the 229. The 229 was pretty heavy though.

2. Reliability. I've seen the tests for the Sig and am impressed, but I hear the XD is just as good. Basically to use this gun for home defense it must go bang every time. I want it to last a long time, will rust be a problem with either? I also feel like the Sig is a simpler gun, I understand it all how it works, ect. I am not as clear on the XD with SA only and the grip safety, and if/how to maintain them.

3. I was pretty set on the .40 but now am leaning toward the 9 mil, but I go back and forth. Even though it has greater stopping power will I be able to handle it as well, and over multiple shots? Also 9 mil is cheaper... (yes I do want to fire at the range often enough to stay proficient)

Any other considerations or comments would be greatly appreciated, or if I am way off base let me know. Thanks for the advice!

Well, everyone knows what a big fan of the XD I am; and if I had to recommend any handgun it would be the XD. I recently shot a Para-Ordnance PDA which is a DA .45 and I wasn't impressed. You'll want a shorter trigger pull. And the XD is about as reliable as a handgun can get. The early ones had a little rust problem, but SA sorted that a long time ago. And the XD has two safeties, the second one is on the trigger; and I prefer safeties that are easy to take off. I can grab the XD and shoot, no worries about thumbing something.

Most will agree that shot placement is more important than caliber; but others (to include the FBI) say that when you do hit the target, you want to hit it with the biggest round you can to improve the odds of doing damage. I am a .45 man myself, and yes ammo is not cheap but I can get 100 rounds for $30 at WalMart ($23 on sale at Sportsman’s Warehouse) and it is more important to make good use of range time than it is to shoot a lot. I see too many people standing at the range, taking their time to align up their sites and aim before they shoot. No weak hand shooting, no quick acquisition of the target, nothing. Even better is to get in a practical shooting like I mentioned in my earlier post. Make the best of your range time versus shooting a lot. Other than getting used to a new gun, there is little merit to doing a lot of static shooting.

And the recoil of a .45 is no worse to handle than any 9mm I have ever shot. Hell, my wife shoots my M1911 without a problem, so don’t worry about recoil.

Bottom Line: If I could only own one gun, and my life depended on it, it would be a XD-45ACP.

Cheers! M2

[Guest regularjoe]

I would agree with M2's post, I have owned a SIG 220 and I own/have owned the XD in all three calibers 9/40/45 and can effectively say that in the same barrel length I feel that the gun shoots essentially the same regardless of the caliber, the only time I felt there was "more recoil" was when I used the 3" subcompact in .40 with hot loaded rounds. As said above the XD is a great gun. In your situation you describe for a dresser gun, you hear a sound, pick it up rack a round and ready to go, no fiddling with safeties, now worrying about trigger pulls etc..

If you use this gun for home defense once you chamber a round the gun will be 100% SA so your concern over the trigger pull with be negligable. I also would take the largest round you can, better to throw as big a round as possible if you need to. The nice thing about the XD is the price doesn't go up based on the size of the caliber.

Ammo - When I was younger I would go to the range and burn through 500-700 rounds at a time, these days when I go to the range and shoot maybe 100 rounds. Like M2 said its all about actually practicing rather than just throwing rounds down range for the sake of shooting.

[Guest Cap-10]

I'm assuming at least some of you took advantage of the USP .40 deal. Has anyone found a good in-the-belt holster that's not too bulky? I'm looking for a decent holster to carry it concealed.

What is this deal you speak of?

Cap-10

[BigFreddie]

I'm looking into buying my first handgun right now as well. I think I've narrowed it down to either the Sig P229 or the XD. Here are my main considerations:

1. Shoot-ability. I have shot the 229 (but not the XD), and the DA on the first pull was quite long and heavy (sts). The trigger on the XD felt lighter and shorter in the store, which would make multiple shots easier to get off rapidly if need be I think. That being said, I got good groupings with the 229. The 229 was pretty heavy though.

2. Reliability. I've seen the tests for the Sig and am impressed, but I hear the XD is just as good. Basically to use this gun for home defense it must go bang every time. I want it to last a long time, will rust be a problem with either? I also feel like the Sig is a simpler gun, I understand it all how it works, ect. I am not as clear on the XD with SA only and the grip safety, and if/how to maintain them.

3. I was pretty set on the .40 but now am leaning toward the 9 mil, but I go back and forth. Even though it has greater stopping power will I be able to handle it as well, and over multiple shots? Also 9 mil is cheaper... (yes I do want to fire at the range often enough to stay proficient)

Any other considerations or comments would be greatly appreciated, or if I am way off base let me know. Thanks for the advice!

You might want to look at the Smith and Wesson M&P series. My 9mm feels similar in the hand as compared to a Sig 229. They have a pretty decent selection of them in 9/40/45. Their "compact" .45 looks really nice right now for a large caliber pistol. They are also very light. As for reliability I'm also following a good thread on a professional shooter putting 50,000 rounds through a 9mm M&P in six months - at the 36,000 round mark he broke a spring in the trigger. Mine has been great through 2,000 rounds with no hiccups to speak of.

To get the most out of your gun you might want to invest in some training... There are great instructors out there that can show you ways to shoot your pistol much better. I went to a class with an ex-Army SF guy that was very, very good. I learned lots even though I have been shooting for over 20 years and have been on several competition teams...

BF

[check6]

Yeah it's a $100 rebate on new sigs. If the seller is a direct dealer with Sig they can take it off the initial price, otherwise it's a mail in rebate.

Thanks for the help guys, I think I will try and find a .45 XD to fire before I rule out that caliber. M2, is this weapon a manageable size to carry, and does your holster ever turn on your laser? Also, is the grip roughly the same size as the other XD's?

Edited September 16, 2008 by Tron Carter

[BigFreddie]

If you're going for cheap - you can't beat the Glock. The military discount gets the basic models (9/40s) down to $400. Upgraded night sights will cost about another $75. And the big bores (.45/10mm) cost about $500. You can call Glock and find out what local dealers have these specials or you can order through Glock and have it delivered to your local dealer.

An excellent source for great prices is Bud's Gun Shop - I've dealt with them before and they have excellent customer service and their prices are very, very hard to beat without a lot of searching and effort...

BF

[Guest TheBurt]

I agree with M2 the .45 is the round for most self defense applications, and my personal favorite. The .40 is a great compromise and is what many law enforcement agencies choose for good reason, I carried a Berreta .40 (hydro shock ammo) as a State Trooper, as well as, a Berreta .380 on my ankle (gave it to my wife), I currently carry the H&K .40 USP. I have some buds in other law enforcement agencies that carry the Glock .45.

No matter what you prefer, get professional instruction, spend the time, money, effort on being able to draw, aim and fire and hit your target, under stress, offhand, weakhand, center of mass, high center of mass, and just as importantly, how to RETAIN that weapon in a groundfight. Take time to "chair fly" scenarios. If you do none of these, you will not be successful when the time comes to employ your weapon, and all this talk about calibers, makes and models is moot.

Anyway, the 870 is great and a classic, the choice of many law enforcement agencies, however, I carried the Berreta semi-auto chambered for 3", and it is still my favorite combat shotgun.

A great personal friend of mine and squadron mate owns an on-line gun store, PM me and I'll give you his website, great prices.

[M2]

BF

You can also find XDs in that price range (~$500) or better at gun shows (I've seen XD-45ACP Service models for $480), which in my opinion is a better weapon; but kudos to Glock for having a military/LE program (and I think it extends to firemen as well).

I've also heard good things about Bud's Gun Shop, but I have never bought from them myself (by the way, I fixed the URL for you, the one you used was hosed up).

Cheers! M2

[BigFreddie]

BF

You can also find XDs in that price range (~$500) or better at gun shows (I've seen XD-45ACP Service models for $480), which in my opinion is a better weapon; but kudos to Glock for having a military/LE program (and I think it extends to firemen as well).

I've also heard good things about Bud's Gun Shop, but I have never bought from them myself (by the way, I fixed the URL for you, the one you used was hosed up).

Cheers! M2

I honestly have never really gotten into the XD craze. I keep hearing their new M model is the heat though. I know Bud's has really great prices on all the other guns I've been interested in. Remember about gun shows - Texas (and San Antonio in particular) has great gun shows - other states have one a year that is a quarter of what the Saxet shows are once a month!

Glock's program is very good - they must be scared of the newer polymer guns. I think even EMTs can get the discount. I've got the info for the San Antonio dealer if you're interested. Drury's on the SE side of town...

And thanks for the help on the link!

BF

[M2]

BF

Thanks, I've been to Drury's on numerous occassions but I am not interested in getting a Glock whatsoever. My next purchase, which hopefully will happen at the next SAXET show if everything goes as planned, is one of these...

And if the price is right, one of these as well..

After that, I am saving my money for a Saiga 12...

Cheers! M2

[M2]

Well, it was a good day in S.A.!

I brought home two more 1911s (the top two in the pic)....

The shop I had been talking to had the black stainless I asked about. They had a price of $910 on it; but as they quoted me $875 about two months ago they sold it to me at that price.

Then, I was looking at the Lightweight Operator that I handled two months ago and noticed it went up in price as well, from $875 to $910. I had just bought the Loaded Target and was just showing the Operator to my wife, explaining about the increase in price, when she says "Well, you had better buy it now, before it goes up any more!"

Well, she didn't have to tell me twice! Luckily, I was still at the table so the paperwork only involved writing them another check and adding it to the other paperwork I had to fill out. So now I guess I am officially a 1911 collector!

The black stainless Loaded Target is more beautiful in person; but the Lightweight Operator and its Armory Kote finish was just too hard to pass up (especially when the wife tells you to!). It has an aluminum alloy frame and a match-grade barrel, and is very nicely balanced. Both have Tritium 3 dot sights on them, and I have to say I am now in 1911 heaven!

And my wife kicks ass! I am a lucky man to have her!

Cheers! M2

[Guest wildblue]

Congrats! Two beautiful 1911s at once... that is a good day.

[Hacker]

Well done, M2,

Although I personally am not a fan of forward serrations, drilled triggers, FLGRs, and the like...you made two very nice purchases. I'm a sucker for any 1911, even ones that don't stylistically appeal to me. That operator looks tough with the light rail.

[Guest regularjoe]

my wife, explaining about the increase in price, when she says "Well, you had better buy it now, before it goes up any more!"

Cheers! M2M

Any chance you can have your wife talk to mine, I have my eye on a couple of toys and she needs some female convincing.

[BigFreddie]

M2,

Nice additions! Are they from the gun show? The old 1911s are a tough gun to beat! I can't believe in the last 100 years we're still comparing everything to John Browning's masterpiece... What mags are you running them with? If you want to run a light on the Operator I would suggest the Surefire X300 - there is a place called BrightFlashlights that sells them very cheap with a military discount - all Surefires for that matter. I've actually never seen them cheaper than through him.

I took a class last year with a well-known instructor and this is what he said during our training on malfunctions: "If you have a true ball of shit, which means if you’ve shot a 1911 for more than about a half hour, then this is how you clear the malfunction…” And he's one of the most sought after 1911 gunsmiths in the world. His builds bring almost $10,000 and they are strictly utilitarian and not engraved with a ton of gold!

BF

Edited October 6, 2008 by BigFreddie

[M2]

BF

Yeah, specifically from AJC Sports down in Clute (near Galveston). I had made arrangments with them over a month ago, and the price of the Loaded went up to $910 but they still sold it to me for the quoted price of $875. The Operator was $910, which isn't bad considering I've never been able to find either of them for under a grand. My XD will stay my carry/HD-until-I-can-get-to-the-shotgun weapon; I like its capacity (13+1) and have a LaserMax on it. Plus I don't mind if it gets banged up, that is why I got it. Plus, it is extremely reliable, just like an AK. I may carry a 1911 on occassion; but my preference will be for the XD. I also have a few revolvers that I normally don't use, one is a Colt .357 Magnum (pre-Python) from 1952 that is an heirloom, and the other is a cheap-o Taurus .38 Special that is what I usually give to the wife. She also loves the 1911s and I may look for one for her.

RegularJoe

Trust me, I will be paying for these. Most likely in the form of a new washer and dryer, and some jewelry from James Avery. She also got a new phone last week, but to be honest it is all worth it. Any wife than actually encourages you to buy guns is worth taking care of!

With the way the stock market is going, I am beginning to think I should have also bought a couple thousand rounds of ammo as well!

Cheers! M2

[slacker]

I'm in the market for a concealed carry, no smaller than a .380, automatic preferred. Something that is concealable and comfortable in shorts and a t-shirt. (I've already got a few "big guns" for home defense) Any opinions on the Ruger LCP, Bersa .380 Thunder CC, Walther PPKS?

[cragspider]

I'm in the market for a concealed carry, no smaller than a .380, automatic preferred. Something that is concealable and comfortable in shorts and a t-shirt. (I've already got a few "big guns" for home defense) Any opinions on the Ruger LCP, Bersa .380 Thunder CC, Walther PPKS?

Out of those, I would recomend the Bersa. For the price its the cheaper one. I have it and love it. Very easy to take apart, light, and you can get it with 9 rounds if you get the right model. Plus all the reviews that I have read on it are great.

[Guest regularjoe]

I'm in the market for a concealed carry, no smaller than a .380, automatic preferred. Something that is concealable and comfortable in shorts and a t-shirt. (I've already got a few "big guns" for home defense) Any opinions on the Ruger LCP, Bersa .380 Thunder CC, Walther PPKS?

I have an Automag Compact Carry in .380 that I love, whole gun is stainless steel so cuts down on recoil and fits in your pocket.

Not going to win and out and out gun fight but would give you enough to make the average mugger think about picking on someone else.

[Hacker]

I'm in the market for a concealed carry, no smaller than a .380, automatic preferred. Something that is concealable and comfortable in shorts and a t-shirt. (I've already got a few "big guns" for home defense) Any opinions on the Ruger LCP, Bersa .380 Thunder CC, Walther PPKS?

Kel-Tec P3AT.

They have a bit of a bum rap, and because of this you can pick them up used dirt cheap. What most people don't realize is that they have a lifetime warranty, so if you pick up one used that has had problems you can send it to Kel Tec and let them make it right -- which they always do.

[slacker]

Kel-Tec P3AT.

They have a bit of a bum rap, and because of this you can pick them up used dirt cheap. What most people don't realize is that they have a lifetime warranty, so if you pick up one used that has had problems you can send it to Kel Tec and let them make it right -- which they always do.

I've read about the Kel Tecs, it's sounds like they stand behind their product. But most reviews say- not fun to shoot- back up gun only. I want something that I can put 50 rds down range and enjoy it too.

[M2]

The Bersa Thunder is about the same size as a compact XD, which I would prefer for reliability. Another option would be a Commander or Officer sized M1911, but I have reservations about the reliability of shorter M1911s. I shot a brand new Para PDA a few weeks ago, and it had a few FTF/FTEs; but as it was new I would expect it to get better once it broke in a little.

And whereas the Kel-Tec P3AT may have great customer service behind it, I've shot one and it wasn't something I would consider for a primary conceal carry weapon. Too small for me and hard to control with my big paws. I work with a guy who does carry one (the one I shot, actually), and he likes it; but for me I would go for something bigger.

Like I said, I carry a full-sized XD45 Service all the time (I've got it on me as I type, as I haven't had a chance to put it away yet), and I have no problems carrying it in shorts and a t-shirt. As a matter of fact, that is how I am usually dressed when I carry it. About the only thing you have to do is wear a size up on the shirt, and with retirement I already have a need for larger shirts! All I use is a Uncle Mike's neprene IWB holster and I have never had a problem after years of carrying this way. I also carry using a vertical shoulder holster on the motorcycle, again without any problems. If I ever find I need to use a gun, I want to have the most gun I can have!

Cheers! M2

[slacker]

The Bersa Thunder is about the same size as a compact XD, which I would prefer for reliability. Another option would be a Commander or Officer sized M1911, but I have reservations about the reliability of shorter M1911s. I shot a brand new Para PDA a few weeks ago, and it had a few FTF/FTEs; but as it was new I would expect it to get better once it broke in a little.

And whereas the Kel-Tec P3AT may have great customer service behind it, I've shot one and it wasn't something I would consider for a primary conceal carry weapon. Too small for me and hard to control with my big paws. I work with a guy who does carry one (the one I shot, actually), and he likes it; but for me I would go for something bigger.

Like I said, I carry a full-sized XD45 Service all the time (I've got it on me as I type, as I haven't had a chance to put it away yet), and I have no problems carrying it in shorts and a t-shirt. As a matter of fact, that is how I am usually dressed when I carry it. About the only thing you have to do is wear a size up on the shirt, and with retirement I already have a need for larger shirts! All I use is a Uncle Mike's neprene IWB holster and I have never had a problem after years of carrying this way. I also carry using a vertical shoulder holster on the motorcycle, again without any problems. If I ever find I need to use a gun, I want to have the most gun I can have!

Cheers! M2

I was wondering how you'd include a 1911 in the post! Ha!

I haven't seen the compact xd- i'll include in my search. Thanks for the opinions.

[BigFreddie]

I'm in the market for a concealed carry, no smaller than a .380, automatic preferred. Something that is concealable and comfortable in shorts and a t-shirt. (I've already got a few "big guns" for home defense) Any opinions on the Ruger LCP, Bersa .380 Thunder CC, Walther PPKS?

Look at these as well:

Glock 26 - 9mm, 10 rounds

Sig P239 - 9mm, 8 rounds

Smith and Wesson 3913 - 9mm

Kahr PM9 - 9mm

Revolvers

Smith and Wesson 342 - .38 Special (neat package with 135gr +P Gold Dots and a Crimson Trace laser grips - big dollars at that point)

Smith and Wesson 649 - .38 Special again...

BF

[Guest wildblue]

I'm in the market for a concealed carry, no smaller than a .380, automatic preferred. Something that is concealable and comfortable in shorts and a t-shirt. (I've already got a few "big guns" for home defense) Any opinions on the Ruger LCP, Bersa .380 Thunder CC, Walther PPKS?

The Kel-Tec PF-9 is invisible in damn near any outfit. Slightly larger than the P3AT and the added confidence of 9mm. I know that you've heard that they are hard to control (it's true), but I think the good points outweigh the bad ones. Try one, if you can, before you write it off completely. If you're anywhere near Columbus you're more then welcome to take mine out to the range.