CFI (Certified Flight Instructor) info

[HuggyU2]

The FAA is looking at a major revamp of Part 61 of the FARs. They listed those changes via an NPRM, and the public comment period ended on 8 May. Of interest to us here is that they want to change the process for military instructor pilots to get their CFI certificate. In summary, it will simplify the process to basically a mil competency test, and a few other minor hoops to jump through.

The FAA guy running this hopes to have it published by the end of the year. I spoke to the folks at NAFI, and they said their was a lot of support for this in the comment period, and that they expect it will go through.

It's not a done deal, but looks very promising.

I've stopped my CFI training for now, and will wait it out (and hopefully save a few thousand $$ in the process).

[Guest sleepy]

I'm lazy, tired and busy. With that said, is there any discussion of having a requirement that a military pilot first show some sort of proficiency in a GA airplane before being cut loose to teach in low performance airplanes? Such as actually go through a checkride with a designated examiner.

The undertones of this question will undoubtedly bring on the flames. Eh. It is best that I comment no more.

Question still stands.

[brabus]

I would think along w/ the test you'd have to do at least one ride w/ a DE. Just b/c a guy flies _____ in the military doesn't mean he's a safe pilot in a 172 (i.e. exceeding it's limits b/c he's used to his plane's limits....reference those XL studs in the 172 a few years ago).

[Whitman]

Finally! I've always thought it was messed up that a 24 yr old could teach students to fly a supersonic jet but wasn't automatically or easily qualified to instruct in a spam can. This will help GA greatly. I can't tell you how many guys I know who would love to get their CFI but don't wanna pay the $$ or put up with the FAA pain.

[B-O-double-Z]

Need some advice on the best way to get a CFI rating added to my pilot's license...

I think technically, I need to take a written test (maybe it is an oral, not sure), have an endorsement to take a CFI check-ride, and pass a practical.

I'm an ATP with multiple ratings and type-ratings, and military instructor. I came up through the military and never did any civilian instructing. I do a lot of GA flying and want to have the ability to instruct civilian flying on a limited basis (some tail-wheel training & private pilot instruction for my kids and my friends kids).

I don't mind spending some money, but I don't want to get dicked around for weeks or get tied up with some dumb-ass flight school that won't understand that I just need an "add-on." I'm in Shreveport, LA.

I can do the training in my own planes if needed. Any suggestions on how to approach this.

Bozz

[Guest sleepy]

Bozz--

As I read FAR 61.183, your main hurdle is going to be getting an endorsement to take the FOI (Fundamentals of Instructing) written test. Shouldn't be a big deal. Other than that, it appears to me that you know how the rest of the drill works. I recall a thread from a while back that had to do with military instructors getting their CFI. Completely agree with getting jacked around by a flight school...stay away from Part 141 schools.

Been thinking about getting mine also when life slows down, as younger family members want to learn. Let me know if you get it and how smooth (or not) the process is.

[GBock]

The quickest (and cheapest) way? Wait for the new 61.73 to come out. Latest word is September, so expect to see it in the 2009 FAR/AIM.

That is if you can wait that long.

I could be wrong, but I believe there is no CFI "add-on" like you would have a multi-engine add-on to a commercial ticket. It's an independent rating.

[B-O-double-Z]

GBock,

I had heard about the proposal to have an FAA equivalence for military instructors. I didn't realize is was this close to being a reality. I'm not in a huge hurry...it is just something I've been interested in doing for a few years. Maybe I'll call a FSDO an see if they know what the status of proposed rule change is (I'll make sure I have a sharp pencil ready to stick in my eye to relieve the pain of talking to them if needed).

As far as calling CFI an "add-on," I am probably am using the wrong terminology. My desire is not to have some flight school or instructor try to start me from scratch. I have a buddy who recently took his Multi-Engine, commercial, instrument ticket to a flight school and told them he wanted to have single engine privileges. They tried to tell him he needed go through a 40 hour private pilot (all the same sh!t as somebody who's never flown).

For now, I thought there might be somebody who could recommend a civilian instructor (maybe like a former military guy) who could prep me quickly and help me get the check-ride/testing with min hassle.

[HuggyU2]

I spoke to the guy running this program at FAA HQ back in Nov. He said "10 Sept 08". "Rumors" state it could get accelerated, but don't hold your breath.

Correct: it is not an add on. It's a separate certificate.

Also realize the FAA about 2 years ago greatly reduced using Designated Examimers to do initial CFI checkrides for them: the FAA does them to the max extent practical. Getting "up to speed" is less about flying the maneuvers (which are quite easy, as you know), and more about the ground eval. It is not uncommon to meet folks who had a 4-6 hour ground eval.

Suggestion: if you're going to wait until Sept for this to take place, hold off taking the tests until more is known about what will be required. Once the picture is clear, and you're all studied up, go take the FOI along with the test for the "Advanced Ground Instructor". That does a few things:

1. it gets you a ground instructor rating for the cost of the extra test.

2. passing the FOI has to be done anyways for the CFI/MEI/CFII certificates.

3. the questions for the CFI written are a subset of what you'll study for the AGI test, i.e. for the AGI you'll study some glider and rotorcraft stuff, but not a big deal.

4. When the the test proctor gives you your passing score on the AGI written, hand him another check and take the CFI written. You'll basically just used the AGI test as a practice test, and should have no problem passing the CFI written.

[Tone deaf]

Call Carl Nuzzo, who runs Accessible Aviation. He's a former fighter pilot, and all around good guy who should be able to help you without any hassles. He's at Golden Triangle airport near Columbus AFB.

Accessible Aviation link

Edited January 26, 2008 by tanker pilot

[B-O-double-Z]

Thanks for the good advice guys. I'm still debating whether to try to do this under the current constructs or wait, "betting on the come," that they'll extend CFI to military instructors soon.

Are there any companies that "teach you the test" for CFI...like they do when you go get your ATP?

I wonder if these guys at Accessible Aviation could help you knock the whole thing out in a few days? I'm assuming they have an FAA testing station there. I'll call them Monday.

Bozz

[ellsworb]

yes. . patience is key here. My damn ground eval was 8.5 hours at the Indy FSDO when I did mine in 2001. The flying didn't even happen till the next damn day! Checkrides through FSDO are a pain in the ass. It seems the Examiners there (only from my experience howeve) don't seem to feel completing the Practical Test Standards are "enough" of a checkride.

As recommended earlier, get the Gleim books for the knowledge exams. They really aren't cosmic.

And tell that flight school that said dude needed 40 hours they need to be fired. There's a table in the Private Pilot PTS that clearly states the requirements for certificate add ons.

[Sneedro]

Knock out the written exams. They are easy. Just memorize the answers and take the test. Its nothing cosmic. If that's all it's going to take to get your CFI, I say go for it. It's a heck of a lot easier than doing it the civilian way.

Ellsworb, I feel your pain. The 6+ hour ground eval with no break...thank you Indy FSDO!!

EDIT: 40 hours to add on a single-engine rating?? That's complete Bullsh!it!! I got my single add-on, and it took all of 3 hours, which conveniently enough is the minimum time required to get a sign-off to take the checkride.

Edited January 30, 2008 by Sneedro

[HuggyU2]

As stated earlier, there's a difference between:

- getting an ASEL add on,

- and getting a CFI certificate (not an add on).

[Highside]

Saw an email a few months ago that the FAA was batting the idea around to give military IPs a CFI (again) as long as all the appropriate tests are taken. Anybody know the status of this or know where to look?

[hindsight2020]

I don't know what the big deal is about CFI equivalency. Honestly, flight training in a military environment is very different than operating in civilian, mostly VFR environment with piston engine equipment. The only argument that I recognize as reasonable is, once again, the cost of taking a written test versus going through the cost of CFI certificate(s), which in this brave new world can get quite expensive. Furthermore, nobody really has their civi CFI as a backup plan to exiting the Air Force and not having an airline option pan out, seriously. Even if one were to try an pursue a position at an established 141 school or a university program, the paycut would still be substantial and few would pursue it. I think it's another example of "uh, uh, free sh$t yeeeeiii" without recognizing the full reality of what it actually takes to be in a safe position to act as a flight instructor. I think it's a bad idea personally, when your student has more time in make and model than the instructor. I don't care how much space shuttle PIC you got, you have no business giving primary to a kid on a 172 when you consider yourself "spun up and good to go" by virtue of a FAA databank test a 3rd grader cold pass by closing their eyes and x-mas tree'ing the thing. I see it all the time with tailwheel checkouts, all sorts of types with turbine types squireling, porpoising, bouncing down the runway on a cub or citabria..I'm telling ya, it's just different and like everything takes a little spool up time. Spool up time for a civilian CFI should be at a minimum going thru the certificate training, which for any outfit worth their salt will require at least 10 hours of dual given with the candidate on the right seat, and both left seat and right seat time for commercial manuever proficiency. That would of course make it worthwhile to those who wish to use their rating, and sufficiently deter the the mil competency "uh free sh%t and credentials, lets go rent a Seneca and crash" crowd.

[SocialD]

Saw an email a few months ago that the FAA was batting the idea around to give military IPs a CFI (again) as long as all the appropriate tests are taken. Anybody know the status of this or know where to look?

Contact this guy, he should be able to point you in the right direction.

https://www.sheppardair.com/

[Techsan]

I think it's another example of "uh, uh, free sh$t yeeeeiii" without recognizing the full reality of what it actually takes to be in a safe position to act as a flight instructor. I think it's a bad idea personally, when your student has more time in make and model than the instructor. I don't care how much space shuttle PIC you got, you have no business giving primary to a kid on a 172 when you consider yourself "spun up and good to go" by virtue of a FAA databank test a 3rd grader cold pass by closing their eyes and x-mas tree'ing the thing. I see it all the time with tailwheel checkouts, all sorts of types with turbine types squireling, porpoising, bouncing down the runway on a cub or citabria..I'm telling ya, it's just different and like everything takes a little spool up time. Spool up time for a civilian CFI should be at a minimum going thru the certificate training, which for any outfit worth their salt will require at least 10 hours of dual given with the candidate on the right seat, and both left seat and right seat time for commercial manuever proficiency. That would of course make it worthwhile to those who wish to use their rating, and sufficiently deter the the mil competency "uh free sh%t and credentials, lets go rent a Seneca and crash" crowd.

Disagree. Most AF IPs are at least semi-intelligent and would not think they know everything about being an instructor in a 172...unless they actually do. I definitly know my limits and would never kid myself that being an IP of a DC-10 is the same as a 172. Of course you could always run into the idiot who thinks he does.

I think it makes sense and is a good idea.

Mods, feel free to merge with the original topic....

[HuggyU2]

I spoke to the MFWIC at the FAA Headquarters for the implementation of this. It got caught in the bureaucracy, and the effective date will be 10 Nov 2008. As posted, Sheppard Air will put out a study guide to help everyone on the test questions.

Hindsight,

Yours is a very myopic viewpoint.

Many of us are going to use this for more than "giving primary to a kid in a 172". Way more than that. I'll leave it at that.

Additionally, many folks plan on taking their teenagers flying in their own airplane,... yes, some military pilots DO own single-engine prop airplanes, and can fly they very well,... dare I say even better than a 20 year old CFI with 250 hours total time?? And it would be nice to be able to sign off your teenager's logbooks, solo them out, and mentor them thru their aviation experience.

I'm very aware of my limitations when going to fly a new aircraft. However, I have a fair amount of IP experience, and know that once I can master a particular aircraft, the instructing part will flow naturally.

[Guest Cap-10]

Huggyu2 (or anyone else in the know),

Got a few questions:

1) Since there is not really an Instrument Instructor in the AF (AIS grads?), what determines if someone gets the CFI vs the CFII equivalent?

2) With regards to the MEI, what about guys who teach in the F-15 or the T-38 (considered center line thrust).

SocialID,

Thanks for the link to Sheppard Air.

I've already have my 3rd old asking me to take her up in an airplane. I can't wait to be able to sign off her log-book.

Cap-10

[HuggyU2]

Cap-10,

I don't know how they will determine it, but the FAA guy said that if you are instrument rated and teach instruments, you'll get it.

With regards to the Centerline Thrust, I just don't know. I'll ask.

[Guest rcb]

Ok, so some of this is venting. Granted. But consider the arguments.

It bothers me that mil pilots basically get lots of stuff given to them. Commercial? Fine. Multi/Instrument? Fine. ATP? Hmm. I guess so too. Don't have any compelling thoughts one way or the other.

So now we get another market dilution with the CFI/MEI/AGI?

I don't want to start a debate along the lines of 'Well I served my country' or 'Military aviation is soooo much harder, so I should get this' or anything like that. Fair proposal at the end.

My background:

6 years enlisted Army Guard, 8 years AD AF Nav, 2.5 years AF Reserve, just about to start with the Air Guard. Paid for school and civ ratings with the GI Bill and bought my own airplane. I *COMMUTED* to go flight instruct. Really. Like several states away. I finally made it to a jet regional last year. I'm on my second airline.

What bugs me:

1. Mil IP's getting the same CFI/MEI rating as the young guy trying to work up to that XYZ job. It's HARD like you pure mil guys have no idea. I know, UPT was hard, deployments are hard, your experience level is higher, etc etc. So was UNT, and my deployments, and I have over 1700 hours as a nav, in the cockpit. Here comes another freebie for the military guys who probably have tons of turbine PIC time.

Some CFI work/money will get absorbed by those people vs. the 'little guy' living on Ramen and scrounging for any flight time he can get.

Scenarios I imagine:

A. "Hey, you need a BFR? Aw, I just did the paperwork on mine, so let's go do that this weekend. No charge, just give me some beer. It'll be fun to do some Cessna flying."

B. "Oooooh, you were a B52/T38/etc etc pilot? I'd rather fly with you than Johnny CFI. (Although Johnny can instruct in a 172 with his eyes closed and tell you exact pitch/power/rates of descent/etc etc.)"

C. "Hey, I just got my CFI from the FSDO, can I ride along and tell you some military stories?" Johnny loses out on safety pilot/networking/flight instructing opportunities again.

D. Any type of "I don't need the money/Let me do it for fun/practice/etc. you can imagine.

Personal RANT: it REALLY bugs me that nav time counts for jack. Did you know there is a civilian nav rating and you CAN have it on your ticket? Really. No one uses it but last time I looked, there were some in the FAA database with it.

Further, I couldn't get it without taking a written, practical, etc. No equivalency for you! And no one can really administer those any more. As useless as it is, it's practically impossible for me to add to my pilot's license.

And I did my job in the cockpit of a 707 airframe for 1700 hours. Even the FE gets to credit some of his time toward an ATP. Zilch for the nav.

Nav time not counting for anything is not really any mil pilots fault, but it points to a culture of pilots taking care of their own, sometimes to the detriment (if merely by neglect) of others. Why not make some percentage of it count towards an ATP like the FE? Note that I now don't need it, but I think this is reasonable.

Lets make even a small percentage count towards total time for insurance or an ATP. Fair? Especially you F-15E WSOs ought to get something.

Rant off.

Fair proposal:

For a military IP to get his CFI equivalency, you should have (and I think some of this is or may be regulation already)

1. For an MEI: 15 hours PIC in a PISTON multiengine, non centerline thrust. For safety/familiarity.

2. For a CFI: 10-15 hours PIC in a PISTON single, can credit up to ten hours of turbine single time (T-6). Just have 10 or so on top of that or something. Really, that's like 6-8 flights guys.

3. For an AGI: Pass the FOI like everyone else.

4. For a CFII: #2, but under the hood.

5. Pass the CFI written. You gotta get at least a little GA knowledge.

A turbine, especially a jet, is sometime easier to fly. No mixture, prop controls, cowl flaps, turbos (in some cases), crewed vs single pilot, EXTREMELY performance limited (Cessna 152 with two adult men? Better not have more than about 12 gallons of gas), etc.

You have a small amount of time to instill someone who might be in a totally uncontrolled and relatively unregulated (compared to military) area of flying, if you are instructing primary students. It's a different ballgame. A private license in as little as 40 hours, and then they are loose on their own. Not the tons of sim time, groundschool time, IFS time, dual/solo/etc., discipline, structure, and all that goes with military training is not done for the civilian pilot.

Finally:

Do not give your work away for free! If it's a friend of yours or something like that, ok, but consider referring them to someone with a lot more time in their plane. Charge market rates so Johnny can get some flight time too. Heck, charge more, you've got more experience.

Be safe, be fair, and don't take it as just a rating.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this by a few, but read what I've written carefully and try and get the gist of my arguments. No insults are intended.

Edited September 2, 2008 by rcb

[Guest rcb]

I don't have a dog in this fight... but barring any monstrous-ego issues or yoke-monkey antics, I know who I'd be more inclined to give my hard-earned money to for civ. flight instruction. Hint - it ain't the "I'm only instructing to build hours for my airline app" kid.

Well sure, but that's just a question of what quality of product you want to pay for. Pay the kid who takes it seriously, and does a good job, AND is building time for the airlines if you ask me. Take him flying in your plane and help him build time too.

For a rebuttal, would you rather have your initial taildragger instruction from someone who owns a small flight school and has time in stuff from a Stearman down to a C-140 or the guy with 2500 hours of T-38 FAIP time and a fresh signoff?

This is just a question of quality of instruction. If someone has both, great.

[Container STS]

I do agree on a number of your points, for example the requirements to get that CFI rating - it should be the same as any other dude of the street. The FAA is considering extending CFI ratings to Mil IP's, but obviously they need to get their FAA equivalency just like when we go take our MEI/COM test post-UPT (most do), but......

It bothers me that mil pilots basically get lots of stuff given to them. Commercial? Fine. Multi/Instrument? Fine. ATP? Hmm. I guess so too. Don't have any compelling thoughts one way or the other.

So now we get another market dilution with the CFI/MEI/AGI?

I flew before the Air Force and I still fly GA. We don't get our ATP for free. My compelling thought is that we earned it. You earned your wings too, but this isn't the 30's and we aren't flying Pan American Clippers across the Atlantic and Pacific. The age of the Nav telling the pilot/pilot(s) where to go is at an end. We have GPS and are trained to do it on our own. As a consolation, pilots are also on the way out but you need to give it 30 years and we will start bitching also.

What bugs me:

1. Mil IP's getting the same CFI/MEI rating as the young guy trying to work up to that XYZ job. It's HARD like you pure mil guys have no idea. I know, UPT was hard, deployments are hard, your experience level is higher, etc etc. So was UNT, and my deployments, and I have over 1700 hours as a nav, in the cockpit. Here comes another freebie for the military guys who probably have tons of turbine PIC time.

Some CFI work/money will get absorbed by those people vs. the 'little guy' living on Ramen and scrounging for any flight time he can get.

So what? He should have evaluated his options...he knows what he got himself into, he knew the risks and sacrifices, and if he can't deal with it oh well.

A lot of us were that dude at XYZ job and said "F* This!"...working your ass for crap pay as a right seater for a regional for years was not in their cards. Now I am not one of those dudes, but I know tons of them. Everybody has their way into aviation and I have heard some incredible stories and journeys, but I wanted to be a combat pilot and I made it happen. I knew the risks, I knew my chances, and I expected them. Dudes @ XYZ should be mature and realistic adults.

Further, the dude working at XYZ needs to be better than the other dude, rich, or network with the big wigs and upgrade to a niche fly job, or start banging a starlet in the back of her Falcon while right seat beats off to the soundtrack, but I don't loose sleep over the kid @ XYZ. If I can help him I will, but I chose my path to the seat and he chose his/hers. Suck it up or quit...that or innovate your niche to get somehwhere other than XYZ.

Personal RANT: it REALLY bugs me that nav time counts for jack. Did you know there is a civilian nav rating and you CAN have it on your ticket? Really. No one uses it but last time I looked, there were some in the FAA database with it.

Further, I couldn't get it without taking a written, practical, etc. No equivalency for you! And no one can really administer those any more. As useless as it is, it's practically impossible for me to add to my pilot's license.

Sorry, but this is not the 30's and you are out of a job...GPS bud - and FYI we have to take tests too for equivalency. You're a PIC man, which means you are also the Nav.

Nav time not counting for anything is not really any mil pilots fault, but it points to a culture of pilots taking care of their own, sometimes to the detriment (if merely by neglect) of others. Why not make some percentage of it count towards an ATP like the FE? Note that I now don't need it, but I think this is reasonable. Lets make even a small percentage count towards total time for insurance or an ATP. Fair? Especially you F-15E WSOs ought to get something.

It's a good ol' boys community and Nav's were an integral part of it back when they were needed, like I said, the career field is on the way to major reductions even to non-existence. As a bomber dude, we once were integral to the national command/leadership structure...as you may have noted over the past few incidents, we have zero representation up top so we often get the shaft. It's extinction and leadership by exemption, so don't feel too bad.

Do not give your work away for free! If it's a friend of yours or something like that, ok, but consider referring them to someone with a lot more time in their plane. Charge market rates so Johnny can get some flight time too. Heck, charge more, you've got more experience.

Sorry, but I really don't care about Johnny. I love aviation and the great people in it, but I am not giving handouts because I worked my ass off. He will work for it or grow or quit. FYI if a MIL dude is hopping in a twin and hasn't flown it in a while, what an idiot to instruct.

Be safe, be fair, and don't take it as just a rating.

It's never just a rating man, it's our wings (and yours). Safe...you bet your ass. Fair?.....sticking it to the corporate a-holes who hire regional dudes for slave-wages. I will thank sweet baby Jesus if I do private sector flying in the future for not having been a tool to those crooks. Many do not have that luxury.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this by a few, but read what I've written carefully and try and get the gist of my arguments. No insults are intended.

Semi-flamed. I feel ya bro, but I heard this pilot's Air Force crap before and it's not my fault some dick AC or Flight Lead or FUF was a shaft-polisher. I respect all crewdogs and GIB's!!!

[Bull-Mi-Dah]

RCB,

When is the last time a civilian IP went through a Training Review Board?

In the CAF, AF IP's don't BUY their rating, it is EARNED!

Edited September 3, 2008 by Bull-Mi-Dah