Civilians in MOAs

[Skitzo]

The reason you don't understand it is because you aren't in our shoes.

Furthermore I have heard zero effort on the part of the services from educating GA people on what goes on in a MOA.

The B-1 does have an air-air mode of the radar, although it's mostly used for purposes other than trying to find bug squashers.

It sucks when you have a finite amount of time to buzz around the MOA, rehack currencies and such so that we can be prepared to go to war and joe blow blasts through, we have to knock it off and waste time and gas to try and not hit you. The crew has every right to be pissed at you, maybe he lost his CMR status.

I can understand you not understanding because it isn't communicated very well, but I can also understand the B-1 crew being upset.

Military Operating Area says it best.

Maybe you'd understand it if the B-1s were on a collision course with you and over-g the aircraft to avoid you, pull the wings off of it and completely destroy a 250 million dollar asset as well as jeopardizing lives.

Thats right you would have been legal being there but you probably wouldn't want to have been there.

[Guest BrewMaster]

Yeah, it really isn't all that bad, but I fly like I was taught and my instructor had no problem with using MOA's as long as I was extra vigilant, and like I said, I didn't think the sh!t was gonna hit the fan from this, and I asked to learn. I guess Herk was born a complete understanding of both GA and military activities.

I've had absolutely no exposure to any military aviation, except airshows, and the other day...easy, i'm kidding. And so I didn't realize that it was really much harder for them to see me than I expected. So, much thanks Hacker

[Guest BrewMaster]

ktulu said it best, I'm not flying a B-1 through the MOA, I'm flying a 172....and I didn't see the harm. I understood why it is dangerous.....just didn't see the harm on that particular occasion.

Honest guys, no harm intended and I don't think I'm cooler than they are...otherwise I'd want to fly GA for a living. Think about it....

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Someone put a lock on this stupid thread.

The GA guys can argue until their blue in the face about why they have every right in the world to fly through an active MOA. They have no idea the restraints and pressures on the military training ranges and airspace in the US. The MOAs get smaller, more restrictive in altitudes, fill up with red circles everywhere and the pilots are still expected to get their training done. Joe Bag O'GA Rights says he's gonna save some gas and blow through the active MOA. He justifies his decision by saying he is not breaking the rules even though the intent of a MOA is for the military to have a relatively safe place to train because the public has been alerted the training is taking place. They have no appreciation for what the military pilots in the MOA are doing and they don't really care. In fact, many of them are actually hoping the get a glimps of the military jets "in action." They do this all the while assuming that the military pilots have all kinds of magical powers at their disposal to miss them.

Military aircraft hit each other in the MOA, what makes these guys think they can avoid a fvcking Cessna?

We're not going to solve this. We've been here and had this discussion before. GA guys tout their rights while military guys tell them they are really taking some big chances AND they are screwing up the training.

Lock it.

[GreasySideUp]

I have a thousand hours blasting through MOA's as a civilian and would never do it the same way again after my first flight in a T-37. I didn't realize what an inconvience it is for aircraft that I thought had global SA when depending on the training might now be devoting 100% attention and 20-30 minutes looking for a cessna. Mind you a lot of fighting can be done in a Viper without having an operable radar, let alone in an A-10, 38 or 37.

Things you can do to help,

Always talk to the controllers who are talking to the military aircraft and ask if they are only using a portion of the MOA. They might never be above 5k or below 10k depending on the mission. They might be working over a particuluar town or north of a certain radial.

Stay to the extreme vertical boundaries - fly in the bottom or top 500 feet if you can and tell the controller you will be at that hard altitude if it will help. Try to never fly in the middle of the altitude block.

Try to be on a border.

Ask what you can do to be the least hinderance. "What altitude would help the most?" would be a huge help.

If the MOA starts at 6k and you are at 7, please just descend to 5. If you are around tweets doing spins go to 4 to be safe. Being in a MOA because you are allowed when it is just as easy to descend 2 k is absurd. I realize there are MOAs surface to the moon where this is not practical.

Is this required? Absolutely not. but if I have SA in my cockpit that a 172 is going to be on a 180 heading on the 360 radial from xyz VOR at a hard altitude of 6900 feet I can plan accordingly and still get something done. Even if I know one or two of those for certain it will help immensely. If I have to devote my radar and eyballs to 20k feet of altitude looking for someone doing S turns about a point I just wasted my sortie. Depending on the mission and where the MOA is in relation to the field, a fighter might only be in the MOA for 20 minutes. A Cessna transversing in the dead center can easily kill that entire time.

Thanks for asking how you can help, these tips might save a midair as well.

Fly safe,

-j

[brabus]

Brew...you got the point and learned, good job...seriously. I understand you not wanting to take a huge detour around a large MOA...what about altitude change...was the MOA to the dirt? It really pisses me off when some GA guy blows right through the MOA when he could just easily fly at 6500 or lower and avoid it. If it's so big you can't go around and it's too low to go below (and no way you're going over the top in a 172), then greasy made a very good point about talking w/ the controllers and helping them out as much as possible. If a GA guy does everything he can to stay out of your way, but just can't get around the MOA, then at least he's doing what he can...but just blowing through thinking just b/c you're a 172 it's not a big deal is not the right answer. I don't know what that B-1 dudes situation was, but I don't really blame him for getting pissed off, especially if he really got fvcked over on some quals or whatever. Just try to avoid MOAs all together, if you can't, realize yes you are "legal," but you really are causing a hell of a lot more trouble to the dudes in the MOA than you think, so get thru as fast as possible and help the controller out.

[Guest BrewMaster]

That is all I wanted.

Didn't realize the harm I was causing, and I could have been like some pilots I know and said "awe fvck it, stupid military planes think they own everything." But no, I basically wanted to make an example of myself and learn from it. Just asked for a clearer understanding, which I definately got, and thanks to those of you who understand that.

Anyways, I DEFINATELY WILL NEVER FLY THROUGH A HOT MOA EVER AGAIN, and won't recommend it to anyone I know.

So call me @sshole Joe GA, and keep suggesting I don't give fvck about the military or whatever those of you who didn't understand the point of this thread want to call me, but I think I've made my piece and learned my lesson.

[Guest BrewMaster]

Brew...you got the point and learned, good job...seriously. I understand you not wanting to take a huge detour around a large MOA...what about altitude change...was the MOA to the dirt? It really pisses me off when some GA guy blows right through the MOA when he could just easily fly at 6500 or lower and avoid it. If it's so big you can't go around and it's too low to go below (and no way you're going over the top in a 172), then greasy made a very good point about talking w/ the controllers and helping them out as much as possible. If a GA guy does everything he can to stay out of your way, but just can't get around the MOA, then at least he's doing what he can...but just blowing through thinking just b/c you're a 172 it's not a big deal is not the right answer. I don't know what that B-1 dudes situation was, but I don't really blame him for getting pissed off, especially if he really got fvcked over on some quals or whatever. Just try to avoid MOAs all together, if you can't, realize yes you are "legal," but you really are causing a hell of a lot more trouble to the dudes in the MOA than you think, so get thru as fast as possible and help the controller out.

The MOA was FL230 and below and about 20-25 minutes just do get to the edge on the west(not to mention getting back to my original course) and a restricted area touching the MOA 15 minutes to the east, not an easy decision and I definately biffed.

So I did what I did, legal yes, right no. It's much clearer what brabus and greasy said, but I still won't fly through again even if I try hard to help out. Thanks for understanding guys.

Edited June 8, 2007 by BrewMaster

[Vetter]

Not really a MOA, but same concept:

That was on a VR route that was clearly depicted on a VFR Sectional. VFR traffic scooting right through the VR route at 600'. Legal? Absolutely! Smart? Absolutely not! All the VFR traffic had to do was climb 1000' to be above the route. Who's fault was it? Probably both...the "see and avoid" concept. But who gives a ###### whose fault it was when you end up a smoking hole.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Vetter

[HuggyU2]

BrewMaster,

I'm not mad/upset with you. You asked a legit question after seeing what happened, and I think you're enlightened. I appreciate you being open minded to this subject. As you can see, many military pilots are pretty sensitive to this.

I'm also a member of AOPA. I support them most times, but one area I don't is their constant fight to stop DoD from opening new Special Use Airspace. When the military tries to change a MOA to a restricted area, AOPA usually fights and wins. As a result, it remains a MOA, and you are legal to fly through it VFR.

I don't know if you've got kids, but for the sake of my kids, I appreciate it when the G.A. aircraft avoid the MOA's: when I die, I'd like an open-casket funeral. If I encounter a -172 at 400 knots, that's not going to happen.

Edited June 9, 2007 by Huggyu2

[Guest Stodr]

Brew remember not all military aircraft have radars and even the ones that do might have them in modes not looking for other aircraft. We also don't have superman eyes a 172 if very difficult to locate even whenyou are looking for them. You might be very viligent out front, but how good are you at looking behind you or above you to see aircraft.

[matmacwc]

Stop flying through our damn MOA's................................you wanna die when F-16/15 A-10's are doing a HARB (will not explain that to you) and have target fixation while you fly your -172 through the MOA wondering whats wrong? People like you scare me........

Edited June 9, 2007 by matmacwc

[Hacker]

Stop flying through our damn MOA's................................you wanna die when F-16/15 A-10's are doing a HARB (will not explain that to you) and have target fixation while you fly your -172 through the MOA wondering whats wrong? People like you scare me........

People who mis-use apostrophes are equally as dangerous.

[FourFans]

BrewMaster:

Alright dude. Don't misread these replies. No one is saying you had malicious intentions. We are saying they were poorly planned intentions.

Is it legal to walk through bear country with a slab of raw meat strapped to your back? Is it legal to drive from coast to coast without stopping for a night of rest? Is it legal to have a friend shoot an apple off your head with a rifle? Yup, and if you think it's a good idea, Darwin thinks you should do it.

"I'm legal and we're all vigilant so I'm good" has potential to lead to the worst accidents possible. Combat fliers use an extensive risk management process in our planning to mitigate the dangers of that exact logic process. I doubt your 5 minute airborne risk assessment was as thorough. Plan on the ground, execute in the air, in that order.

I'm not just some dumb@ss wandering through the skies. I'm in college, working and paying for lessons...

Depending on your experience level (somewhere at or below 500 hours, i'm guessing) talk to a flight safety rep to find out what history says about how dangerous you really are. Believe it or not, as a young GA pilot stretching your wings, you are in fact, at your most dangerous. Keep that in mind when you're feeling invincible.

We're not trying to hammer your skills. We're just say that your risk vs. return assessment was severely flawed. (unless you think your and 8 other human lives aren't worth $50)

You're a flyer, so grow some thicker skin. Don't take it personal, accept the critic, do better next time.

Cheers,

FourFans

[BossHogg]

I can appreciate the misconception that most people have towards military pilots. To illustrate the "global" SA that you might find yourself beak to beak with. Brew, I think you probably have more hours than I did when I was doing Cloverleafs at 250 knots in that MOA.

I can assure you that I was eyes outside and head on a swivel and not looking down at my maneuver card cheater, scratching my nuts, or trying to figure out why my fvcking helmet and mask was cutting off the circulation to my face.