Practicing formation work

[BADFNZ]

I'm a recent pilot-select waiting on a class date. I know I have a while before I even set foot into a UPT classroom but I'd like to get ahead if possible. From what I have read on here, the biggest obstacle to UPT studs is formation flying (correct me if I'm wrong). I have access to a couple T-28s and have the opportunity to do some practice formation work. Do you guys think this will benefit me in the long run? Is there anything I should do that would alleviate some of the newness of UPT flying? I'm not asking for any info that shouldn't be disclosed, just some tips or pointers on a way I can familiarize myself with the AF way of flying. Thanks.

[Chuck17]

Good luck.

NOT RECOMMENDED. If you want to get ahead, get a T-6 Dash-1 and start reading... memorize ops limits and boldface, etc.

Thats awesome that you have access to those types of aircraft, but without a USAF instructor (or anyone qualified to fly anything like the formations you will fly in UPT) you have a better chance of killing yourself then learning anything that will benefit you in the future.

You might think you know what you are doing, but you dont.

My .02

Chuck

[HerkDerka]

Formation phase is a long way away. Focus on your ability to study, that will pay off sooner.

I wouldn't say formation is the biggest obstacle. IMHO formation phase was the best part of tweets. Some people take to it like a duck in water and some have to work at it, it just depends. Some students breeze through the program, some have trouble in one area like instruments or formation, and some are hanging onto the tail the whole way through. The key is to keep up a good attitude and apply yourself, eventually the light will turn on.

HD

[BADFNZ]

Good luck.

NOT RECOMMENDED. If you want to get ahead, get a T-6 Dash-1 and start reading... memorize ops limits and boldface, etc.

Thats awesome that you have access to those types of aircraft, but without a USAF instructor (or anyone qualified to fly anything like the formations you will fly in UPT) you have a better chance of killing yourself then learning anything that will benefit you in the future.

You might think you know what you are doing, but you dont.

My .02

Chuck

I'd be flying with 2 certified formation airshow pilots. I'm not sure what the difference between what the AF does and what they do during airshows, but that was why I was asking for some pointers. All of my hours have either been in a Cessna, Bonanza, or Bell 47, so needless to say flying a few feet from another aircraft is something to get used to in itself. I was just wondering if other's felt this would help at all.

I'd love to get a T-6 Dash-1 and start reading, but my luck I'd go to Whiting and get the Turbo Weenie. I'll start reading Dash-1's when I'm on casual.

Edited June 26, 2007 by BADFNZ

[bucky60k]

Man T-28s are badass. As far as I know FAST/Warbird formation standards and techniques are a mix of Air Force and Navy signals, etc. and are pretty different from the way Air Force does things currently in UPT. I'm currently in form in the T-6 down at Laughlin and 99.99% of the students have never flown any sort of formation and they make it through the program just fine. It's a challenge but its not impossible. But if you have the opportunity to see some of the formation positions in the 28 and get some stick time maintaining fingertip, etc. then why not. Bottom line you just have to experience UPT when you get here and your IPs will get you through the training, regardless of any prior experience you have.

[Guest T38driver]

I'm a recent pilot-select waiting on a class date. I know I have a while before I even set foot into a UPT classroom but I'd like to get ahead if possible. From what I have read on here, the biggest obstacle to UPT studs is formation flying (correct me if I'm wrong). I have access to a couple T-28s and have the opportunity to do some practice formation work. Do you guys think this will benefit me in the long run? Is there anything I should do that would alleviate some of the newness of UPT flying? I'm not asking for any info that shouldn't be disclosed, just some tips or pointers on a way I can familiarize myself with the AF way of flying. Thanks.

Bad...

If you have the option to go fly in a T-28 for free, go for it. I don't think it'll help you any when you get to UPT...but any chance you get to fly, take it. Don't make it work though. You'll have plenty of work once you start. In addition, once you start training DON'T ever say, "We'll, that's not what I did in the T-28!" Make sense?

Regards,

[BADFNZ]

Bad...

If you have the option to go fly in a T-28 for free, go for it. I don't think it'll help you any when you get to UPT...but any chance you get to fly, take it. Don't make it work though. You'll have plenty of work once you start. In addition, once you start training DON'T ever say, "We'll, that's not what I did in the T-28!" Make sense?

Regards,

I don't think I'd ever tell an IP "Well this is how my dad taught me", I just want to get some exposure to formation. I consider myself a n00b pilot (only 80hrs) so I'd just like to get the feel of being a few feet from another wing. It might be just more of a mental thing than me actually practicing anything.

Chuck,

I'll try to take some cool pics. I've been lucky enough to hitch rides in some cool Warbirds (P-51, Seafury, A-26, TBM, B-17, etc) but not too much stick time in them (with the exception of an hour in a T-6).

[brickhistory]

I'll try to take some cool pics. I've been lucky enough to hitch rides in some cool Warbirds (P-51, Seafury, A-26, TBM, B-17, etc) but not too much stick time in them (with the exception of an hour in a T-6).

I hate you.....................................

[StoleIt]

I hate you.....................................

2

[Guest alfakilo]

I'm a recent pilot-select waiting on a class date. I know I have a while before I even set foot into a UPT classroom but I'd like to get ahead if possible. From what I have read on here, the biggest obstacle to UPT studs is formation flying (correct me if I'm wrong). I have access to a couple T-28s and have the opportunity to do some practice formation work.

Forget the formation work if you want to bone up a little for UPT. If you must fly that T-28, then get the pilot to let you do some power on stalls, spins, and military overhead traffic patterns...if it still has a hood, some some basic instrument work...vertical S's will do fine.

Point being that your progress in UPT will have little to do with a couple of flights in a T-28.

Get yourself in good physical shape and be prepared for a military atmosphere where learning takes place in a time constrained environment and competition is keen, both academically and in the air.

[Wing Sweep]

I agree it won't help you with military formation flying. UPT is so different from civilian flying that the real benefit will just be increased experience in the air and airmanship. Take the opportunity to perfect you flying skills. Fly 30, 45, 60 degree bank turns without losing altitude. Practice descending/climbing constant speed turns. Practice instrument approaches, holding, DME arcs. Take the opportunity if you have it, and add a few more drops of water into your experience bucket. Best of luck to you.

[Hacker]

I don't recommend LEARNING any kind of formation from the FAST warbird guys. FAST uses the Navy T-34 manual as the basis for their formation terms, references, and visual signals. They are VERY DIFFERENT than what the AF teaches. You'll confuse yourself more than anything if you try and learn that, especially when you show up to UPT talking about "bearing lines" and the like.

More importantly, HOW you fly formation in a big piston radial (like the T-28) is VERY different than you will do it in a turbine aircraft.

Go do it for fun -- because flying formation in a T-28 is kickass -- but don't do it expecting to get a leg up on your UPT classmates.

[HuggyU2]

I don't recommend LEARNING any kind of formation from the FAST warbird guys. FAST uses the Navy T-34 manual as the basis for their formation terms, references, and visual signals. They are VERY DIFFERENT than what the AF teaches. You'll confuse yourself more than anything if you try and learn that, especially when you show up to UPT talking about "bearing lines" and the like.

Hacker,

That is no longer correct... but the change is very recent. They used to use the T-34 Association's Formation Manual (not the USN's, but it is heavily influence in that direction), but have since developed their own, as a result of many outside influences. Their formation manual is about 90% USAF, with a sprinkling of USN and civililan in there. I did a proof read of it, and found it to be pretty good. They literally copied word-for-word many of the things that are found in the USAF T-37/T-6/T-38 manuals.

The new visual signal are due to be published any day now (or might have been, but I can't find them yet), and will mirror USAF much more than the T-34 manual did.

Attached is an example of their Chapter 3.

Ch3_M_9Apr1200.pdf

Edited June 27, 2007 by Huggyu2

[Murph]

I'm a recent pilot-select waiting on a class date. I know I have a while before I even set foot into a UPT classroom but I'd like to get ahead if possible. From what I have read on here, the biggest obstacle to UPT studs is formation flying (correct me if I'm wrong). I have access to a couple T-28s and have the opportunity to do some practice formation work. Do you guys think this will benefit me in the long run? Is there anything I should do that would alleviate some of the newness of UPT flying? I'm not asking for any info that shouldn't be disclosed, just some tips or pointers on a way I can familiarize myself with the AF way of flying. Thanks.

I flew AT-28Ds in both airshows and formation (not formation acro, though) prior to UPT. A lot of the learning points brought up by the FAA guys for my formation card were echo'd in UPT. It helped out a lot. Good luck. The T-28 is a great airplane.

[Hacker]

Hacker,

That is no longer correct... but the change is very recent. They used to use the T-34 Association's Formation Manual (not the USN's, but it is heavily influence in that direction), but have since developed their own, as a result of many outside influences. Their formation manual is about 90% USAF, with a sprinkling of USN and civililan in there. I did a proof read of it, and found it to be pretty good. They literally copied word-for-word many of the things that are found in the USAF T-37/T-6/T-38 manuals.

The new visual signal are due to be published any day now (or might have been, but I can't find them yet), and will mirror USAF much more than the T-34 manual did.

Attached is an example of their Chapter 3.

That's great news, actually. I briefly got involved in FAST starting in 2004, and while I liked the overall concept, I did NOT like many aspects of what they taught and how they taught it. I thought their concepts of flight lead and wingman roles, as well as the "flight leadership" of the leads was severely lacking.

The worst part was the weird hodge-podge of terms and signals that they used...it was somewhere in the middle of the USAF and USN, and I thought it did nobody any good to execute it that way, ESPECIALLY since there were a lot of ex-Navy and ex-USAF fighter guys that were involved in the FAST program.

Sounds like they are moving in the right direction. Maybe when I get back from the UK I'll get back involved again.

[Hacker]

Just looked at the Chapter 3 excerpt....funny...the graphics are EXCATLY like they were in the T-37 and T-38 3-3 back in the day (except with a Yak/CJ instead of a Tweet).

[busdriver]

Short answer, don't worry about learning about form to get a leg up, just study hard in UPT. But, if you don't grab at the opportunity to fly some form in a T-28 you're a sad excuse for an aviation enthusiast.

And I also hate you.

[Buddy Spike]

Do it. Every minute you spend flying before UPT will help. It may not directly relate, but having SA and knowing basic concepts are huge. Formation flying is fun. Go out, learn, and have fun. Unless you're completely out to lunch, picking up on the Air Force UPT stuff won't be that hard (whiting guys do it all the time).

[HuggyU2]

Just looked at the Chapter 3 excerpt....funny...the graphics are EXCATLY like they were in the T-37 and T-38 3-3 back in the day (except with a Yak/CJ instead of a Tweet).

Pretty good stuff, I also thought. I've been speaking with the President of FAST for about 18 months. I'll hopefully get the full story at Oshkosh, but it seems there was a push from many folks to get away from the T34 Manual, and do what the bulk of military pilots do.

These organizations that sign on as signatories to FAST (there are about 15 of them) need more pilots with your kind of background, Hacker. Definitely look into it when your time allows. I hope more jet guys get involved: although there's a lot to learn about flying formation in these smaller, high performance prop planes, military-trained pilots can really be an asset to these organizations.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Huggyu2

[Rocker]

BADFNZ:

Don't bother with flying formation or taking any more of those T-28 rides. Bad idea. Instead, tell me when and where I need to be to fly them for you, so that way, you won't have to bother with it. I would much rather it be me dealing with the hassle of taking those flights instead of you - I doubt it's even worth your time. In return, I'll scrape together all the somewhat semi not non-current T-6 gouge I still have somewhere and just give it to you totally free of charge! This is a win-win for you, no question. So yeah, let me know.