Ammo against the shoe clerks!

[GBock]

Ok. This is an easy question. If pilots run the majority of the Air Force, then why do we still have these nit-noid rules? Another question is, why are they having us enforce those rules?

This is an easy answer. The O-6 lobotomy.

Edited October 13, 2010 by GBock

[Guest Jango]

This is an easy answer. The O-6 lobotomy.

So qweep work turns them into a shoe clerk too? Impressive....

[Guest redmammal]

pilots could be a little more nicer to those around them, at least...

[GBock]

So qweep work turns them into a shoe clerk too? Impressive....

No. Any zipper-suited senior officer will tell you they are "ops focused". While not entirely untrue, the focus changes from being a crew dog and helping your bros to not looking bad in front of your commander friends and not taking dings on inspections so that you impress your general officer boss. It's called the O-6 lobotomy. Entire different animal than a shoe. But lets keep this on topic. Or better yet, since we all agree to disagree (with you), you should probably go and get that pick-up from spot 52. thanks.

[Guest Jango]

Or better yet, since we all agree to disagree (with you), you should probably go and get that pick-up from spot 52. thanks.

From the looks of some responders I see some that agree with me....heck they even got negative points from it too....damn. Spot 52 you say? Sorry Command Post just called, the air field is closed, something about lightning w/ in 5nm. Can't risk any movement on the ramp.....

[Guest redmammal]

From the looks of some responders I see some that agree with me....heck they even got negative points from it too....damn. Spot 52 you say? Sorry Command Post just called, the air field is closed, something about lightning w/ in 5nm. Can't risk any movement on the ramp.....

oooo officers get so mad when its raining and they have to wait 5 min for a ride...

[Guest Crew Report]

oooo officers get so mad when its raining and they have to wait 5 min for a ride...

Enlisted flyers (me) get made too. But then I realize that I have a much cooler job and make more money than the guy driving the bus so it doesn't matter.

From the looks of some responders I see some that agree with me....heck they even got negative points from it too....damn. Spot 52 you say? Sorry Command Post just called, the air field is closed, something about lightning w/ in 5nm. Can't risk any movement on the ramp.....

Cool, the LRS just bought a late takeoff.

[SurelySerious]

Jango needed a friend on the board to back him/her up, so he/she thought it would be helpful to create another alias "redmammal," thinking that no one would figure it out. Because no one has ever done that.

[Guest Jango]

oooo officers get so mad when its raining and they have to wait 5 min for a ride...

I think anyone would get upset if they had to wait in less than ideal wx.....esp when someone *should* be there to pick you up.

[osulax05]

pilots could be a little more nicer to those around them, at least...

They're coming out of the woodwork now...

Do you have anything meaningful to contribute redmammal or are you here because your buddy Jango told to come mess with the pilots?

[Whitty]

[Guest Hueypilot812]

And your Wing/CC...it's his damn base right? Your attempt at goading me failed. Nice lure though, cute back back story and everything. Fact is this, 1.8% of the total AF are pilots already making your group a minority, we can probably extrapolate that a good .2% of you have a disreguard for....well lets just say it...not maintaining standards where approprite. So that .2% are you making things better or worse?

1. Your original logic was that as an officer, we should be supporting the uniform queep because we set the standard. Not going along with the uniform Nazi attitude means we're poor leaders. If anyone is going to "uphold standards", as you claim is so critically important, then who would be more important than the Wing/CC?

You say he "owns the base", which means you seem to think that because he's an O-6 he can now do as he pleases. If that's the case, then I'm a FGO and I can do as I please. Why should all other officers O-5 and below allow, tolerate and encourage uniform Nazism, but O-6 and above can wear their uniform however they want?

I'm not trying to get into a logic contest with you. I think uniform queep is minor potatoes, and anyone focusing on it too much has their priorities ed up...which is my point...that O-6 I mentioned has his priorities squarely on getting the mission done and taking care of his people, not with minor uniform infractions. At the end of the day, if a guy has his flight suit sleeves rolled up and the mission got done and people got taken care of, does it really matter?

2. I love it when people in the AIR Force try to make the connection that pilots are a "minority" and question why are operators in charge. It has ZERO to do with how many of us there are. It has everything to do with what our branch's primary mission is. We are the AIR component of our nation's military. Sure, we do things like space and cyber warfare, but those two missions aren't the defining reason why we exist as a separate service. Any other branch could absorb cyber warfare or even space and call it their own. For convenience those misisons were given to the Air Force. But the reason why our AIR Force exists as a stand-alone branch is because we operate our nation's strategic bombing capability, tactical interdiction capability, strategic airlift capability, the vast majority of our aerial refueling capability, nearly all the tactical airlift capability, and a large chunk of the airborne ISR capability. Take close note to the titles of those various sub-missions...there's a lot of AIR in all of them. Meaning they require OPS to execute, and MX to generate. So yeah, despite being only a percentage of our total USAF strength, the bag-wearers and the wrench turners are the heart and soul of the AIR Force. So when you ask "why are pilots (or ops, really) in charge of the Air Force", you just asked a question that underlines all the concerns we have about the focus of our USAF.

I'd like to give you a different perspective. I wasn't always a pilot and officer in the Air Force. At one point, I was an enlisted engineer in the Army. Not flight engineer, but construction engineer. I enlisted as an E-1 in 1992, and for four years I drove construction equipment. I then went on to become a Warrant Officer in the Army and flew Hueys (hence my screen name). Never in my 8 years in the Army did I see an enlisted Army soldier stop an officer and question their uniform, much less even be rude about it or question their integrity (as has happened to myself and many others over the years in the USAF). I might have mentioned to my platoon leader (a LT) that he left his hat behind in the office, but it would have only been a quick courtesy...it NEVER came out as a directive or even as a "correction".

Additionally, despite being an engineer and also an aviator, I NEVER lost sight of the fact that the core of our Army were the combat arms career fields...the infantry, artillery and armor units. All we did was support them in one way or another. I never chafed at the idea that infantry and armor officers ran the Army...hell, that's what we did...that was our mission! To have a bunch of engineers or even aviators running the Army would have seemed idiotic. Now I'm not going to say the Army was perfect, they have their own set of issues and cultural problems. But they did NOT suffer from an identity crisis over "what do we do as a service", and all the soldiers knew the difference between an M1 MBT and an M2 BFV. We were all trained in basic infantry tactics, even if the last time we ever did any of that was in Basic Training.

Fast forward and I'm in the USAF now. I've been yelled at when a First Shirt barged into my dorm at a deployed location and commanded me to sweep my hallway (along with all the other Captains and Majors). I've had a LT yell at me for not saluting him (I was in PT gear)...granted he was taken aback when I told him that Captains don't salute LTs, but see where all this queep Nazism stuff leads? He was indoctrinated into that culture, where ROTC-style queep IS your job. I've had a MSgt Pro-super yell at me to "get those shades of your head", despite the fact that I had oak leaves on my shoulder. I've had cops hold me and my toddler-aged kids at gunpoint despite me wearing a flight suit and line badge (and yes, I had permission to have them on the flight line).

I could end there and say it was all about inconvenience and feeling slighted because of my rank. But I'll go a step farther and tell you that despite all this heavy attention on shirt tucking, color of shoes and socks, having sunglasses on your head, etc etc, I've had tons of examples where I was unable to get the mission done because people simply didn't want to try, or they gave me one of 69 excuses why it couldn't get done. Like the time I returned to pick up Army troops trying to catch their rotator home only to be denied landing because our PPR had "expired"...never mind the fact that it was our third trip up there that day (same call sign, etc...but our last arrival into their airfield was a few minutes beyond the Zulu day and they wouldn't let us land). Troops missed their flight home because of that idiotic call. Guys that had spent 18 months away from family had to wait longer because someone in base ops at Base X decided that, despite knowing it was the same ing C-130 that had been in there twice already, the "PPR expired"...as if we're no longer part of the good guys now.

I've been told after landing with min fuel at a deployed location (got to min fuel because the airspace closed and we were forced to hold for nearly an hour) that we couldn't get fuel because USAF aircraft aren't allowed to get gas (it was a USMC field). That came straight from the USAF-ran ATOC. I pleaded saying we only needed about 4,000 lbs to make it to our destination without running out, and they said "you have to leave with what you got", except what we had wasn't enough. I had to spend hours calling people at AMD, who then went AROUND our own USAF guys and called the Marines directly, who then provided us with 4,000 lbs of gas. According to the Marines..."we have no problem providing fuel in emergency situations...we just don't want to be used routinely". So it was our own USAF shoes that wanted to send a Herk back out without enough gas to make it home. Nice.

Or how about the time I was advising the Iraqis at the IqAF base next door, and on our way to work one day, we discovered the ECP/Gate we used to get to work was now closed. The only other way to the IqAF base was to drive the loooong way around...all the way to the North end of Sather, then back south past Camp Stryker. We queried the Sather folks, and they said they wanted to close it off because they were having too many problems with "ramp incursions" and it posed a security risk. We later found out that ALL of the "ramp incursions" were being committed by their very own Security Forces troops driving onto the ramp and parallel taxiway without clearance and without FOD checks...thanks for that, so you decide to screw all the CAFTT guys. Got it. Not a single example of any security being at risk, other than our very own "security" folks breaking their own damn rules.

I can go on and on and on with stories were shoes impeded the mission, and gave us excuses like "that's not my job" or "we aren't allowed to do that" despite the fact that not doing it would result in mission failure. I tell ya, the USAF is really big on "The Process", and "The Mission" is secondary. If you tried to get the mission done and followed the process, and the process didn't allow you to complete the mission, well, that sucks but it's ok. But if you got the mission done but didn't use the process, God help you. Anyways, this rant is over, I've got other things to do tonight.

[Guest Jango]

Huey,

Good rant, and understood on this end. I think the main root of all these issues is class hostility and the idea of "are nots". But that is not what drew me out, the damn near racist tone of some of the comments about 'shoe clerks' is what compelled me to speak out. At the end of the day if people learn some manners, customs and courtesies and just realized we are all on the same team.

[Guest Jollygreen]

Huey,

Good rant, and understood on this end. I think the main root of all these issues is class hostility and the idea of "are nots". But that is not what drew me out, the damn near racist tone of some of the comments about 'shoe clerks' is what compelled me to speak out. At the end of the day if people learn some manners, customs and courtesies and just realized we are all on the same team.

Did he actually just play the "racist" card?

Got to chuckle at that one.

[Whitty]

At the end of the day if people learn some manners, customs and courtesies and just realized we are all on the same team...

then...?

[pawnman]

Fundamentally, you and I see the world from different perspectives. I spent 11 years in the Marines before I transferred to the Air Force. Therefore, during my formative years, I was taught (and believed) that everything I did was for the sole purpose of making the grunts successful. I still believe that.

Today, whether I am talking with a JTAC in Afghanistan or cruising over strategic country X, I can still see why my efforts ultimately will make the grunts more successful. They don't have to be physically there to enjoy the benefits my job provides.

I understand why Pawnman considers my thoughts a stretch, but at the same time, I think he is myopic.

Fair enough. Just realize that we've had several successful operations where there were no troops on the ground. You may say even this is supporting the ground troops by not requiring them to deploy to the fight. Keep in mind one of the reasons we became a separate service was the doctrine of strategic bombing, far forward of the front lines. If we're just going to be a support service for the guys on the ground, we may as well get rolled back into the Army.

[Guest Jango]

Enlisted flyers (me) get made too. But then I realize that I have a much cooler job and make more money than the guy driving the bus so it doesn't matter.

Cool, the LRS just bought a late takeoff.

Bought a late take off? How do you figure? If we are picking up from the ramp.....that means those guys are mission complete and are done flying. Pay attention to context. And the ramp looks like it is still closed.....

[itsokimapilot]

And that is why pilots are assholes. I'd rather be an asshole than a doormat, though.

There are three types of people in the world: d1cks, pu$$ies and assholes...

I prefer to be thought of as a d1ck.

[Guest Crew Report]

Bought a late take off? How do you figure? If we are picking up from the ramp.....that means those guys are mission complete and are done flying. Pay attention to context. And the ramp looks like it is still closed.....

Uh, because flyers also wait on trans to take them to the jet as well.

[Guest redmammal]

Jango needed a friend on the board to back him/her up, so he/she thought it would be helpful to create another alias "redmammal," thinking that no one would figure it out. Because no one has ever done that.

child of scorn, i am not an alias to Jango...i would have to have different plumbing for one. plus, its not fair for flyers to become irate when they arent picked up just as their jet has landed...phone calls have to be made, and the last ones to be called is the bus. dont get mad at us, get mad at the ones who dont dial the numbers fast enough.

Enlisted flyers (me) get made too. But then I realize that I have a much cooler job and make more money than the guy driving the bus so it doesn't matter.

Cool, the LRS just bought a late takeoff.

sad you cant do your job without the people with the "uncool" jobs. if it was up to me, all ya'll would walk your @$$es to your jets. we dont expect a handshake or a pat on the head, but a "thanks for the ride" is alot better than, "we called 10 minutes ago". blame base ops or command post, not the people who get out there within 5 minutes of getting the call to pick you up.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

sad you cant do your job without the people with the "uncool" jobs. if it was up to me, all ya'll would walk your @$$es to your jets. we dont expect a handshake or a pat on the head, but a "thanks for the ride" is alot better than, "we called 10 minutes ago". blame base ops or command post, not the people who get out there within 5 minutes of getting the call to pick you up.

I used to make the call for trans when we'd make our 30 minute out call. Problem is, we'd still be waiting 20 minutes after we shut down. That's almost an hour from initial notification. There were times CP didn't make the call, but often we'd call CP back on the radios after we waited for a while and they'd repeat they had indeed made the call.

I also used to call trans directly to get a ride to the aircraft...myself. I'd call and say "hey, we'll be waiting out front in 15 minutes". It would take an additional 15-20 minutes before a bus arrived, nearly 30-40 minutes after I called trans directly.

I was RONing at a base on the west coast several years ago, when I flew C-21s. We needed to drop by billeting and check out, pick up lunch (no time to get it later), and then head to base ops to flight plan and preflight the jet prior to a DV arriving. We called trans and said we'd be outside our VOQ building. We waited and waited, no trans. After 20-30 minutes, we called them back. Dispatch said the driver showed up but no one was there. I asked if they stopped by our building (and gave them our bldg #)...he confirmed that was the place the driver went to, and he reported that the aircrew was a no show. Funny...we had been out there for half an hour and saw no trans.

I ask the dispatcher to please send the driver back out. We wait another 30 minutes. Now our leisurely timeline of turning in keys and grabbing a bite to eat before sitting in an airplane for 14 hours was going to shit....now we were worried we might not even have time to get the jet ready. I call back again. Dispatcher says the driver is picking up other people, and he'll get to us when he can. I explain that we're flying the 2-star who's office exists on their base, and if we're late taking off, we're blaming it on trans.

Bus shows up in 5 minutes. Driver says he can get us straight over to base ops...I explain "no, you're taking us to billeting, then we're getting lunch...then you can take us to base ops". He seemed pissed, but I'll be damn if this guy was going to lie and say we weren't waiting outside, then ignore our second call, and cost us what's probably the only meal we'll have until we get home. If we're late, he can explain that to the general's staff. We got our keys turned in, got our Subway, and were able to preflight and flight plan on time...they got lucky.

Soooo...I do walk. Nearly every time. The only reason why I say "nearly" is because some of the time (like today), the mx guys that are busting their ass recovering our airplane will offer us a ride.

sad you cant do your job without the people with the "uncool" jobs. if it was up to me, all ya'll would walk your @$$es to your jets.

I wanted to add this...this line pisses me off. Whether you think your job is "cool" or "uncool" is moot. I can damn sure do my job without trans. In fact, I'd rather avoid the entirety of our Air Force "support" system altogether. Case in point: When I flew C-21s, we often flew to civilian airfields. One place we went to often was the Tampa/MacDill area. When given the choice, I ALWAYS chose to fly into TPA instead of MCF. Why? Because I could land the jet, shut down and close up the airplane, have my fuel there, have a rental car and room reservations within 30 minutes or less of rolling onto the civilian airport ramp. If I flew into MacDill, it took hours having to deal with all the hoops and games of dealing with the support functions. I'm NOT kidding you either.

So, I could fly into Tampa International at 5pm and be eating dinner by 6pm. Or I could land at the same time at MacDill AFB and finally be eating dinner by 8-9pm...and I'd get better service too.

I want to ad a disclaimer: I've met some really great support troops (finance, trans, what have you) that did a great job, took pride in their work, and did their best to get a tired and exhausted crew on their way, help a guy get his pay fixed, or assisted someone in getting their records straight. But I've found that's not the norm.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Hueypilot812

[Guest Hueypilot812]

One last story:

When I was flying C-130Es at the schoolhouse, we had to do an ERO for student training. Our ERO block was on the back end of our line, so it made sense to just do it in parking prior to shutting down. We had even gotten an overfly, so when we taxied to park, we were the only Herk with engines still running. When the Nav made the 30 minute out call, he had requested ATOC support for the ERO.

We pulled into parking and the loads stated there was no K-loader in sight, so we called CP again and asked if ATOC was on the way. They said they made the initial call but would check. A few minutes later, CP called back and stated that ATOC was "MOG'd out". My reply was "What's their MOG? Zero?" CP stated "sorry sir, they said they are swamped and too busy to support". Amazing. We're the only airplane with engines running...everyone else had shut down and gone home for the night, and we were the only aircraft in our ERO block to be scheduled with ATOC for an ERO...yet they were "MOG'd out". Interesting.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Hueypilot812

[Guest redmammal]

I used to make the call for trans when we'd make our 30 minute out call. Problem is, we'd still be waiting 20 minutes after we shut down. That's almost an hour from initial notification. There were times CP didn't make the call, but often we'd call CP back on the radios after we waited for a while and they'd repeat they had indeed made the call.

I also used to call trans directly to get a ride to the aircraft...myself. I'd call and say "hey, we'll be waiting out front in 15 minutes". It would take an additional 15-20 minutes before a bus arrived, nearly 30-40 minutes after I called trans directly.

I was RONing at a base on the west coast several years ago, when I flew C-21s. We needed to drop by billeting and check out, pick up lunch (no time to get it later), and then head to base ops to flight plan and preflight the jet prior to a DV arriving. We called trans and said we'd be outside our VOQ building. We waited and waited, no trans. After 20-30 minutes, we called them back. Dispatch said the driver showed up but no one was there. I asked if they stopped by our building (and gave them our bldg #)...he confirmed that was the place the driver went to, and he reported that the aircrew was a no show. Funny...we had been out there for half an hour and saw no trans.

I ask the dispatcher to please send the driver back out. We wait another 30 minutes. Now our leisurely timeline of turning in keys and grabbing a bite to eat before sitting in an airplane for 14 hours was going to shit....now we were worried we might not even have time to get the jet ready. I call back again. Dispatcher says the driver is picking up other people, and he'll get to us when he can. I explain that we're flying the 2-star who's office exists on their base, and if we're late taking off, we're blaming it on trans.

Bus shows up in 5 minutes. Driver says he can get us straight over to base ops...I explain "no, you're taking us to billeting, then we're getting lunch...then you can take us to base ops". He seemed pissed, but I'll be damn if this guy was going to lie and say we weren't waiting outside, then ignore our second call, and cost us what's probably the only meal we'll have until we get home. If we're late, he can explain that to the general's staff. We got our keys turned in, got our Subway, and were able to preflight and flight plan on time...they got lucky.

Soooo...I do walk. Nearly every time. The only reason why I say "nearly" is because some of the time (like today), the mx guys that are busting their ass recovering our airplane will offer us a ride.

I wanted to add this...this line pisses me off. Whether you think your job is "cool" or "uncool" is moot. I can damn sure do my job without trans. In fact, I'd rather avoid the entirety of our Air Force "support" system altogether. Case in point: When I flew C-21s, we often flew to civilian airfields. One place we went to often was the Tampa/MacDill area. When given the choice, I ALWAYS chose to fly into TPA instead of MCF. Why? Because I could land the jet, shut down and close up the airplane, have my fuel there, have a rental car and room reservations within 30 minutes or less of rolling onto the civilian airport ramp. If I flew into MacDill, it took hours having to deal with all the hoops and games of dealing with the support functions. I'm NOT kidding you either.

So, I could fly into Tampa International at 5pm and be eating dinner by 6pm. Or I could land at the same time at MacDill AFB and finally be eating dinner by 8-9pm...and I'd get better service too.

I want to ad a disclaimer: I've met some really great support troops (finance, trans, what have you) that did a great job, took pride in their work, and did their best to get a tired and exhausted crew on their way, help a guy get his pay fixed, or assisted someone in getting their records straight. But I've found that's not the norm.

sorry that trans where you have been has not been up to par. yes, there are some dispatchers and drivers that suck. they hate their jobs, so they spread the grief around by making people that dont deserve their stupidity suffer. thanks for that disclaimer though. there are good trans out there, just like there are bomb diggity flyers that make air crew just that much better with their attitude and thanks. but you may not realize that not many flyers can do their job without trans. they arent just air crew drivers, they deliver parts for the planes (that you fly), help bring in base supplies (that you consume), make sure there are vehicles in remote locations (that you borrow), and do convoys across iraq and kuwait. and that line about being uncool was not to piss you off...but to be called uncool is close to being called unimportant. and the statements above prove that trans is more than a taxi service. look up convoys, and see what were trained to do. cool or uncool, trans is needed. maybe not by you, but by alot of bases out there.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

sorry that trans where you have been has not been up to par. yes, there are some dispatchers and drivers that suck. they hate their jobs, so they spread the grief around by making people that dont deserve their stupidity suffer. thanks for that disclaimer though. there are good trans out there, just like there are bomb diggity flyers that make air crew just that much better with their attitude and thanks. but you may not realize that not many flyers can do their job without trans. they arent just air crew drivers, they deliver parts for the planes (that you fly), help bring in base supplies (that you consume), make sure there are vehicles in remote locations (that you borrow), and do convoys across iraq and kuwait. and that line about being uncool was not to piss you off...but to be called uncool is close to being called unimportant. and the statements above prove that trans is more than a taxi service. look up convoys, and see what were trained to do. cool or uncool, trans is needed. maybe not by you, but by alot of bases out there.

I'm quite aware of the logistics of ground transport. I was an Army engineer and was licensed in M920, M916 and M915 semi-tractors. The logistical part of trans isn't what I'm talking about...it's the various "support" agencies in the USAF that aren't so much support as they slow things down or outright hinder getting things done in many cases. I have a friend of mine who only did his 4 years as an O in the USAF after being sent to trans because he didn't like being in charge of so many disgruntled people.

[Skitzo]

Doing something yourself is always easier/better than relying on someone else. Case in point, we recently split into two squadrons and so now I have to drive myself before I step. Does this bother me? No, for the exact reasons spelled out, I'd rather spend my gas and drive to the opposite side of base then depend on base transpo. Oh yeah, we did try to get transpo support but they told us they couldn't accomodate anyways, so whatever. Base Transpo has sucked at every base I've been at except when deployed, that's it.

Thanks to the link on protocol, I think I'll stuff that in my flight suit and whip it out STS when next I am verbally accosted by someone junior to me.

Why can't the new Air Force motto be, every airman is not a warrior. That would fix a lot of problems.