Leather Flight Jacket

[FourFans]

Leather jackets, asside from being an MR rite of passage, are just as important a uniform item as AF ribbons and medals.

[afnav]

I bought a fitted and measured, thick cowhide jacket at Pop's 13 years ago, and flew with it every flight since then. Yes, I even flew with it when ACC told us we couldn't. It has as many combat hours and almost as many combat support hours as I have.

I am (was) a B-52 guy, and am heavily influenced by tradition, and not that tradition that each CSAF and CMSAF tries to make up every time a new one comes in. My forebears wore leather jackets when they flew and died over Europe, and I wore mine over Baghdad during OIF.

My jacket looks used, with leather wearing off in the usual places. It has a few nicks and cuts where my plane bit me. It does not look like it's brand new, like some of the jackets worn by personnel who are in a more comfortable setting that are now issued leather jackets. When I did that job, I did not get a leather jacket, but the blue Gortex jacket they gave me served very well.

Every blues day during winter, I proudly wear my leather jacket with wheel cap. On my final day in the Air Force, I will rip the stiffener out of my wheel cap and crush it, and will put on my newly modified jacket with nose art, mission bombs, and old bombardier wings on it.

For that, my friends, is tradition.

[Dubs]

You should get it issued to you from your gaining squadron upon completion of Mission Qual.

Ok, I have a question about this statement. What if you're going to AFSOC and you're doing the initial qual and initial mission qual phases in a slick up at Little Rock. Can you go over to Alphapointe and grab a leather jacket once you finish up NMQ (the nav mission qual phase)? Or would you have to wait until you're qual'd in an MC/AC-130 at Kirtland or Cannon?

I was talking to one of the civilian instructors today about that and he said once you get stamped as being mission qual'd in the slick, then you're mission qual'd... end of story and that he figured you'd be able to get the jacket if you wanted to. But he also said he wasn't 100% sure about it...

[Champ Kind]

Pretty sure the whole point of waiting is so that you receive it once you are combat mission ready (CMR). In other words, you are full-up and ready to deploy in whatever MWS you're assigned.

When you're CMR at your unit, you should know it. I wouldn't wear it until then.

[outbreak]

How long does it take Pops to finish a jacket. If I make a stop at Incirlik, will I leave Turkey with my jacket or will it have to be shipped home? I don't have a clue how long its gonna take my squadron to get my jacket.

[JeepGuyC17]

How long does it take Pops to finish a jacket. If I make a stop at Incirlik, will I leave Turkey with my jacket or will it have to be shipped home? I don't have a clue how long its gonna take my squadron to get my jacket.

I just grabbed mine off the rack. $175 including the liner/extra pockets etc. Nicer leather than the issue jackets too. They sell the same jacket on their web site for close to $400

[mach2m3]

Regardless of feeling over the jacket itself, what AFI or other reg governs who is supposed to issue the A-2 jacket and how many are authorized etc..

I have reviewed AFI 36-2903 and it covers who is authorized to wear it and when but not whether or not it is an issued item or something that authorized wearers have to purchase on their own. Basically the supply bubba's here won't get them unless we can prove not only that they are authorized but that we are to be issued them.

[Gravedigger]

Regardless of feeling over the jacket itself, what AFI or other reg governs who is supposed to issue the A-2 jacket and how many are authorized etc..

I have reviewed AFI 36-2903 and it covers who is authorized to wear it and when but not whether or not it is an issued item or something that authorized wearers have to purchase on their own. Basically the supply bubba's here won't get them unless we can prove not only that they are authorized but that we are to be issued them.

Your squadron's RA should give you a piece of paper with the funds and authorization to get the jacket. Then you head over to the base supply folks, and they take the form for billing purposes and give you a jacket. They have nothing to do with authorizing anything. Are you saying your squadron folks wont give you the authorization, or are you going to the base supply folks and asking for a jacket with no dinero?

Edited November 23, 2010 by Gravedigger

[Coasta]

I've had my flight jacket from Mr. Lim for about five years now. I love that jacket, it reminds me of better days while I'm stuck in UAV land.

2! Mine is 10 y/o and still in great shape. I busted the zipper and the Korean lady that runs the drycleaner across the street fixed it for cost because SHE knows him. I also think she tried to sell me her daughter.

[Hacker]

Anyone have favorite locations to get cuffs and waistbands on their jacket replaced (outside of Pop's)?

[Swizzle]

Anyone have favorite locations to get cuffs and waistbands on their jacket replaced (outside of Pop's)?

Pop's screwed up my father's Navy flight leather jacket when he replaced the cuffs and waistband. My dad is a tall guy (6'4'') and Pop's cut off leather from sleeves when replacing the cuffs so the jacket didn't have it's swagger anymore. Can't be a cool guy when your sleeves are too short!

Edited December 1, 2010 by Swizzle

[LockheedFix]

Does anybody know of a better way to get your jacket to Pop's other than paying the $120 for round trip shipping? I've tried to get my buds to drop it off as they passed through Incirlik a couple of times, and they always seem to get there after hours and are not on the ground there long enough to make the trip.

[TSSRShot]

I just ran into some "authorization" issues myself. Fully CMR in my jet, but finally PCA'd to my new squadron only to have the Perma-DNIF resource manager tell me I can't have mine until "you've deployed once." Meanwhile the other two identical squadrons on base issue them as a part of in-processing. I am fairly certain it is only her personal agenda to piss people off, but don't want to be the "new guy jerk." I know I'm "authorized," but other than that I don't have any ammo. She looked pretty silly though when she was trying to make me look stupid and then asked what "that ribbon is" on my vMPF printout, and to explain it was Iraq and Afghanistan campaign medals.

Whats the ideas? Just take it and push on, or push the issue tactfully.

[Learjetter]

Whats the ideas? Just take it and push on, or push the issue tactfully.

I have three ideas:

1- ask your Flt/cc to get you your RA mother-may-I memo

2- wait until after your deployment

3- go buy one yourself. You can get better-than-issued elsewhere.

Likely that you'll end up getting your issued jacket modded anyway, so my vote is for option 3.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Learjetter

[Herk Driver]

I just ran into some "authorization" issues myself. Fully CMR in my jet, but finally PCA'd to my new squadron only to have the Perma-DNIF resource manager tell me I can't have mine until "you've deployed once." Meanwhile the other two identical squadrons on base issue them as a part of in-processing. I am fairly certain it is only her personal agenda to piss people off, but don't want to be the "new guy jerk." I know I'm "authorized," but other than that I don't have any ammo. She looked pretty silly though when she was trying to make me look stupid and then asked what "that ribbon is" on my vMPF printout, and to explain it was Iraq and Afghanistan campaign medals.

Whats the ideas? Just take it and push on, or push the issue tactfully.

Dude, the RA doesn't run the sqaudron. That being said, the Sq/CC may have told him to implement just as he/she is doing. As previously said, t/w your flight/CC and if he confirms that the RA is correct them give up. Otherwise, ask the Flight/CC to help or take it up with an ADO, the DO or the boss when you get a chance.

On another note, I thought the jackets that have been getting issued the last couple of years already had the pocket and armpit mod. The quality of the jackets I've seen lately suck. You might opt to just buy one from Pop's. If you have a C-17 or Ramstein buddy or someone stationed at Incirlik, have them mail it to you through the USPS.

[TAMInated]

Mr. Lim outside the gate at Osan. Your only compraint will be it rook to good and rast too rong.

[GKinnear]

Pop's Leather in the "ally" at Incirlik.

https://www.popsleather.com/

[Spur38]

Pop's or U.S. Wings @ www.uswings.com DWC NO. 30-1415 GAC 201-01-0101 is the Govt. Contract Number

[brabus]

Mr. Lim outside the gate at Osan. Your only compraint will be it rook to good and rast too rong.

2. His jacket is about 6.9 million times better than that piece of shit the AF is handing out these days. I think I paid about $240 for mine, including the zip-in liner, etc. Well worth it.

[Shortbus]

I got one made by Lim this past April, apparently he's been using a thinner leather - it's especially noticeable on the sleeves. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with it. 2 on the price, $200 something..

[NUKE]

Most dudes in my Sq picked up leather jackets from Black Horse Leather in Osan, just down the road from Mr. Lims. Great quality, soft leather, and only $195. Included were the sewn in blood chit, plus zip in liner. You can give him your crappy issue leather jacket and get a discount as well.

[Hacker]

Although the leather on the current 2007 contract Cockpit USA jackets is certainly ugly looking, I assure you it is not "fake leather" -- it is legit goatskin.

A couple years ago, the rules for DoD suppliers changed, forcing the skins for the jackets to be sourced domestically rather than from overseas (traditionally, A-2s and G-1s of the last 20-30 years have been made from African imported goatskin). I don't know anything about species of goats in the US vs Africa, but apparently the skins from here at home aren't exactly prime...hence what you're seeing on the current issue jackets. There have been LOTS of complaints about them, mostly about the peeling and cracking, that have been channeled back up the supply system. Who knows if there will be any change in supplier or quality in the future.

If you want to buy one that you can wear with your uniform, the ones Cockpit USA (used to be Avirex, who has been making USAF contract A-2s since 1998 or so) sells commercially are sourced from overseas skins and look considerably better. US Wings bought up the old Cooper jacket operation and sells a nice "current-issue" spec jacket as well. The Cockpit USA and US Wings jackets won't have the velcro on them unless you specifically order it that way. The Mr Lim's and Pop's Leather options are good too -- probably the best option if you don't care about the authenticity of the jacket and want some of the custom options and a nice fit.

If you care about any kind of historical authenticity in your A-2 (as in, faithful to the WWII specs and look), then Goodwear Leather and Eastman Leather are where I'd spend my money. They're EXPENSIVE, and also require a custom order if you want the velcro on them (big surprise, WWII jackets didn't have velcro). Note that these jackets run smaller sizes and aren't nearly as comfortable as the current-issue design/cut, but IMHO they look a shitload better than the current Avirex and Cockpit jackets that look like you're wearing a garbage bag (unless you get one custom made/tailored at Lim's or Pops).

Please, please avoid anything bought in a department store or mall. It's a uniform item.

FWIW, if you want to try and 'save' your issued jacket, you can help make it less ugly by a couple trips through the washing machine. Set it on 'cold', with no detergent, and put it through the wash. When it's done, let it air dry for several days laying flat on the floor on a towel (you can also stuff a towel inside the zipped jacket to help dry the inside out. Make sure the collar is shaped correctly (with the fold at the correct spot and straight with no wrinkles), else it will stay however it sat once it dries. Don't hang it up until it's dry inside and out. Once or twice during the drying, put the jacket on and wear it around for a little while while watching tv or sitting on the computer -- it will help the leather shape to your arms. It shouldn't stretch or shrink during this process so long as you don't use hot water or the dryer. If any of the leather cracks/peels during this process, you're outta luck -- it would have happened anyway, nothing you can do about it.

If you're able to get your hands on some leather conditioner (high quality stuff like Pecard's or Lexol...not the Meguiars or Armor All wipes you find at WalMart), wipe the whole outside of the jacket down after it's air dried. Even better if you can take the time while sitting there watching TV to hand-massage the conditioner into the leather, rolling the skin between your fingers. It will make the leather much softer and pliable...and won't look nearly as shitty as it does when initially issued. The leather flight jacket aficionados do this hand-massage conditioner routine with their new jackets (some of them do the wash, too) to break them in with a lot of success.

I've done this process with several A-2s and G-1s (including some no-kidding vintage jackets) with no problems. If you're just going to throw your issued jacket in the closet to never wear again, I recommend at least trying it to see if you can salvage it.

[TreeA10]

Mr. Lim..."My suit make man took rike million dallah....you...mehbe thousand."

[polcat]

Hacker,

That's some pretty interesting info on the A-2 leather jacket. Although I believe you in regards to washing a leather jacket, it still sounds wrong to wash a leather jacket in a washing machine. I would love to get that plasticky feel off of my A-2 and might try this. If anyone else has done this, please post your thoughts.

[Hacker]

Although I believe you in regards to washing a leather jacket, it still sounds wrong to wash a leather jacket in a washing machine. I would love to get that plasticky feel off of my A-2 and might try this. If anyone else has done this, please post your thoughts.

Unfortunately, the main Flight Jacket enthusiast site, www.vintageleatherjackets.com, is a register-read-only forum, but there are numerous reports there of guys who have done it to their rather expensive Eastman and Goodwear WWII reproduction jackets. It's a controversial technique, as there are who think you should never wash a leather jacket.

A Google search on the subject will probably reveal some posts from The Fedora Lounge, another forum that has a good bit of leather flight jacket discussion.

Again, I've personally done this with 3 different USAF A-2s (one Cooper and two Avirexes) and three different USN G-1s (two Star Sportswears and one Brill Brothers), with zero ill effects. Again, none of these had the "plastic leather" look and feel of the Cockpit jackets, but the treatment did wonders for bringing out the grain and character of the leather. It also got 'em nice and clean...and it was amazing how dark that water was on some of these jackets! Can't promise anything, but it's worked like a champ for me.