Classic Thread - Pilot poser on Corvette Forum

[Guest Scribe]

To answer the 'work suit,' which I'm wearing in both pics--this one taken by a friend to send home, it was a cotton jumpsuit made by "The Thief" in downtown Udorn. We wore them when not flying--MUCH cooler than a flight suit.

My dad was Air Force (MSC) and gave me a MA-1 flight jacket that I literally wore the cuffs off of as well as the orange liner and wore out the zipper. He also gave me an olive green cotton flight suit that I wore when I got an incentive A-4 ride in late seventies. At least I showed up in it, but was informed that the cotton flight suit was a no-no because the Nomex versions were mandated by then. I did get use of a NOMEX one for the flight and it was hotter as you state. I noticed one guy was wearing one, but he was a LCDR and the operations officer so I guess nobody wanted to tell him what to do. I did wear the cotton one around the squadron was I was there (it was mid July in the desert) and it was much cooler.

[Guest bunk22]

OMG - I went to the link and they have this obviously altered picture that anyone who's flown off a carrier would easily spot as a fake

I don't see it on his website, but he obviously staged it. Maybe it's one he pulled after Navy got after him. What's wrong with it (for you zoomies)? Each carrier based squadron decorates the "00" MODEX aircraft with the Air Wing Commander's (traditionally called the CAG who is an 0-6) name so no way a lowly LT would have his name on aircraft "500" and this aircraft is a static display Intruder near his home in Philadelphia. A-6 purists will also note that nobody climbs the ladder with canopy closed (but that's how it is on display). He also looks mighty old for a LT, don't you think?

Yeah, an airshow staged pic. He wore Navy wings of gold for the longest time. His pic is still in mags with Naval aviator wings. Really pathetic. Of course you remember the guy back in the mid 90's, had fake orders, fake ID, etc. He was the one in Pensacola, roaming around in a flight suit, living at the BOQ yet not even in the military. He lived on the same floor, down the the hall from me at the Q.

[Guest Scribe]

Yeah, an airshow staged pic. He wore Navy wings of gold for the longest time. His pic is still in mags with Naval aviator wings. Really pathetic. Of course you remember the guy back in the mid 90's, had fake orders, fake ID, etc. He was the one in Pensacola, roaming around in a flight suit, living at the BOQ yet not even in the military. He lived on the same floor, down the the hall from me at the Q.

THAT guy was showing up at bases from Pensacola to Oceana in uniform with orders and ID card staying at the Q. I only knew about him because a friend had flown into Ohio somewhere and typically, we hung our flight gear on the launch bar up in the nose well if we were operating away from homeplate or stopping over. He gets something to eat and walks back to his airplane to find THIS guy wearing all his gear and posing for a girlfriend. This was like late 80s to early 90s as I recall and he fooled A LOT of aviators. His downfall was marrying women (in Choker Whites with wings no less) and running off with their money. They tracked him down and I think an alert Marine at PCola starting questioning his 600 kt sea level ejection in a Brit Tornado while flying a Test Pilot exchange tour. The funny part was the guy so pissed about his flight gear being borrowed noted that he had the ejection garters upside down, BUT hearing the Brit Test Pilot story, thought no more of it because Brits apparently wore the garter connectors at top of their calves and not at bottom like we did. When he got caught, it seems many people had met him but he was so slick and never stayed too long (except long enough to get the Major's interest). That was all pre InterNet. Otherwise he's likely have a "fan club" decrying his long term exploits.

[M2]

You gotta admit, the boy has some mad posin' skillz...

And he has a store on eBay!

Cheers! M2

[Guest Scribe]

You gotta admit, the boy has some mad posin' skillz...

And he has a store on eBay!

Cheers! M2

Dead giveaway is the self given macho callsign "Attila". I checked his gallery and if you look closely, you can see where he has removed the nametag. In this one, the nametag is covered by a paste of the flightsuit, but it contains part fo the breast pocket zipper so it appears to have a second shorter zipper above the real one. Note that he forget to remove the centurion patch from the sleeve (how did he earn a patch for 100 traps if he never flew off a carrier?....those are typically wore on flight jackets anyway).

[M2]

I was also gonna send out some props to Atilla for some mad Photoshoppin' skills; but the way he covered up the nametag in that photo is shit! Heck, HerkaDerka did a better job in putting CH in a hybrid gunpig!

Cheers! M2

[Guest Scribe]

He apparently cleaned up the flagrant posing by deleting TPS Instructor nametag with wings due to insistence of Navy according to POWNetwork, but this one is still on his site still giving impression he was a LT

[Gravedigger]

I completely missed this entire thread, but I did read the first few posts. Anyways I have a question for all of the actual Air Force officers out there. A while back I looked into going to law school, and was surprised to see that if you are a pilot and want to become a JAG, you must indefinitely forfeit your rated status. Meaning, you can never again fly for the Air Force.

Does anyone know any exceptions to this? Is it different for Guard/Reserve folks?

I was just curious since this d bag claimed he was both a pilot and lawyer, which to my understanding is not just unlikely, but impossible.

[Bergman]

I completely missed this entire thread, but I did read the first few posts. Anyways I have a question for all of the actual Air Force officers out there. A while back I looked into going to law school, and was surprised to see that if you are a pilot and want to become a JAG, you must indefinitely forfeit your rated status. Meaning, you can never again fly for the Air Force.

Does anyone know any exceptions to this? Is it different for Guard/Reserve folks?

I was just curious since this d bag claimed he was both a pilot and lawyer, which to my understanding is not just unlikely, but impossible.

My immediate response is "why would you WANT to stop flying to be a JA?" Perhaps if you lost your medical or lost your nerve and turned in your wings (just like Cougar!)

As for the d-bag, IIRC from earlier in this soap opera, he claimed to have been a JA first, then went to UPT, which is entirely possible although not bloody likely.

[Rocker]

Die, topic!! Die!!!

[MD]

In the pic below, there's a US flag underneath his callsign below the canopy rail. Does he also have an air-air kill of a US aircraft to his credit too?

He apparently cleaned up the flagrant posing by deleting TPS Instructor nametag with wings due to insistence of Navy according to POWNetwork, but this one is still on his site still giving impression he was a LT

[Hacker]

Cool how his phone number for booking L-39 flights is "215.887.NAVY".

If Smith has been outed recently, it's sure taking a while for his cover-up to catch-up. He still has the Lieutenants bars on the flight suits and "LT Allen H Smith" on the canopy rail of both his L-39 and his T-34.

His "testimonial" writeup says:

Of course, it helps when you have a degree in Aerospace Engineering, with years of flying combat jets, build and maintain prop and jet aircraft, a test pilot, an Instructor, a contract military Safety & Instructor Pilot, and military flight; all culminating in 12,000+ hours in 47 different civilian and military prop and jet aircraft.

He seems to think that the L-39 is a "combat jet".

This stuff from Google is hilarious!!!

During his freshman year he literally bumped into the Naval flight recruiters that were on campus and offered to take him for a ride. The hop was in a T-34B, just like the one Allen now owns, and after just 15 minutes of aerobatics, Allen’s life was changed forever. He passed all of his testing and medical exams that same week and sworn into the Navy at the age of 17 as part of the AVROC Flight program. In very quick order Allen changed his major to Aerospace Engineering and started taking flying lesson at the local airport. After 2 summers at Pensacola FL for INDOC and OCS he was commissioned an Ensign at his graduation from Penn State with his Aerospace degree. Then he reported to Pensacola FL five days later to start flight training.

The best part is that on the POW Network there's a link to his ACTUAL service record, in which he was apparently in the Naval Reserve from '68 to '71 in Willow Grove and Pensacola.

I would love to read the article referenced on POW Network in which he talks about being shot down over NVN.

Got no patience for a guy like that....he may have accomplished a lot as a civilian pilot, but trying to fake being a military pilot sends all that down the sh*tter, as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest bunk22]

I remember reading this guys bio before he was found out. Nice read and believable as well, taken at face value. If he hadn't been caught, he would still be doing the same thing....probably handing out advice to young kids at airshows.

[Guest Scribe]

In the pic below, there's a US flag underneath his callsign below the canopy rail. Does he also have an air-air kill of a US aircraft to his credit too?

If you look at a zoomed out view, you'll see he has 5 stars as well (Soviet and certain client states like VPAF used red stars to signify kills of their opponents). No clue as to what he's trying to signify on his airplane though.

[Guest Whiterock]

I just actually read all of the posts on this topic thoroughly, and guess what? I am a poser. Well, kind of...

I was not rated a pilot, I have Nav wings. My flying was as a Weapons Systems Officer, 1555C, in F-4s. Also called GIB, WSO, Backseater and a few other less nice names. My vision was 20-40, and although I passed all other Cat 1 requirements, there was no Lasek available then and they wouldn't waiver anything less than 20-20. I went to Nav training and then specialized training for F-4 weapons control, then to F-4 RTU. From there, George AFB, I went to Udorn...this is well established and irrelevant. The AF had dual controls in the back seat of a Phantom--unlike the Navy/Marines. At first, rated pilots were the backseaters. Pilots started becoming scarcer, and it was decided special skills for weapons systems made more sense, so the AF went to Navs. Navy always had RIOs who just did the WSO stuff, no flying. At George and then Udorn--particularly at the 13th and Nickel, it was decided backseaters needed to have as much flying skill as possible--to at least take the plane to a safe bailout area, should the FuF be unable, and in a best case bring it home. Many did just that. Some were given a lot of stick time, myself included, and called, as I recall, Category 2As. I took off, flew mission legs, delivered ordnance and landed the bird many times, and having had exceptional hand-eye coordination--and easily corrected to 20-15 vision, was a good "stick." The people I offered as references would attest to that, but also readily say I was a WSO. Because, I was. Being picked to go to F-111Ds at Cannon was supposedly in recognition of this skill--Aardarvarks are/were side to side, Pilot/WSO, and an endorsement to UPT--then waiverable for vision only, had I chosen.

Now, as to how we got here...my outrage at Bunk, et al was based on being called a 'wannabe,' someone who did not serve in SEA and claims that he did. I don't need to verify that I was there anymore than I have, so will let that go. I did not see his aim at the "pilot" poser primary target, not service in SEA. I should have, but the red mist was too strong. Rereading some posts, I do now. For me to not say I was a WSO--and proud of it, would demean all of us who were--including the top Ace in Nam, who was a backseater. It also diminishes the fact that for every frontseater shot down and made a guest of the NVN--F-4s or Weasel Thuds, and the Navy 2 seaters, as well, there was a WSO or Bear or RIO joining him. The Fightergators, me included, shared every bit of the danger, and often got a chance to be a pilot which most of us would have preferred. Again, no apology for what I was and did, and no apology for my anger at seemingly having a year plus of my life serving my country in wartime questioned. But I'll take the hit at not having sense enough to see the forrest for the trees.

That all being said, if Bunk's aim was the pilot piece--and in certain circumstances when asked what I did, I do say fighter pilot--but only to people where going into the distinction between a fighter pilot and fighter gator isn't worth the time, if questioned by someone worth going into it, I do, then I'm guilty of not following the battle and if that makes me a poser, ok...I can live with that with no problem. I can't, however, live with being--even innocently, guilty of less than pride in what I was and the guys who shared the title of GiB with me.

Anyway, I always intended full disclosure, and I do apologize for being late in providing it. As the thread is dying out, I guess the easy thing would be just to keep my mouth shut. However, as I said, I take pride in what I did, have a bond with all who flew the Rhino--front or back seat, and owe the full truth. Here it is.

[brickhistory]

Sir or ma'am,

I hope you'll understand a little bit of skepticism from some, ok, me. This is the fourth-ish version of your persona - Blackstar, Dimestore, pilot Whiterock, now this one. There may be other versions floating around on other sites as well. Personally, I'd like you to be a Vietnam vet, the view from the 'other side' of combat - having served, been shot at, then coming home to see it end - is something worthwhile to hear.

However, with so many versions of the story, a few quick questions:

Why was the photo of you taken in the front seat of the F-4?

What was your nav class #?

Where did you attend UNT? In what training aircraft did you fly and for what phases of UNT?

What were the nav's pre-flight duties on the F-4?

Who were any of these: Moonbeam, Cricket, Hillsboro, or Alleycat?

Do you still hold that Blackstar is/was somebody else in your office area using a common computer and 'stealing' your experiences?

[lloyd christmas]

I am a guy in back....a loadmaster. I guess I can say I am a pilot. In certain circumstances. Nice arguement.

Edited September 3, 2007 by ARGuardTech

[Guest alfakilo]

Some were given a lot of stick time, myself included, and called, as I recall, Category 2As. I took off, flew mission legs, delivered ordnance and landed the bird many times, and having had exceptional hand-eye coordination--and easily corrected to 20-15 vision, was a good "stick."

If there ever was a time to throw the BS flag, this is it...but who the hell knows if someone was so stupid as to let you do a takeoff in a F-4. Deliver ordnance? Really! How? Yes, we let some WSOs get familiar with flying basics...on the idea that they could get the jet feet wet if something happened up front. Past that, it was very unusual for a backseater to get that much stick time...and I certainly don't remember any designations such as Cat 2A that indicated a WSO had stick time.

Anyway, I always intended full disclosure, and I do apologize for being late in providing it. As the thread is dying out, I guess the easy thing would be just to keep my mouth shut. However, as I said, I take pride in what I did, have a bond with all who flew the Rhino--front or back seat, and owe the full truth. Here it is.

Too bad. You're a day late and a dollar short on this 'disclosure'. You are correct...there is no lesser distinction in being a WSO...but you chose to deliberately walk away from that...as if you had something to be afraid of. You can't paint pretty what you did here...and in your doing, you bought every harsh word that has come your way.

[Techsan]

I'm thinking this whole thing is just a marketing scam, paid for by corvette and airwarriors.com

[StoleIt]

I'm thinking this whole thing is just a marketing scam, paid for by corvette and airwarriors.com

Ls1tech is a better forum that corvetteforum hands down.

[Guest bunk22]

I just actually read all of the posts on this topic thoroughly, and guess what? I am a poser. Well, kind of...

I was not rated a pilot, I have Nav wings. My flying was as a Weapons Systems Officer, 1555C, in F-4s. Also called GIB, WSO, Backseater and a few other less nice names. My vision was 20-40, and although I passed all other Cat 1 requirements, there was no Lasek available then and they wouldn't waiver anything less than 20-20. I went to Nav training and then specialized training for F-4 weapons control, then to F-4 RTU. From there, George AFB, I went to Udorn...this is well established and irrelevant. The AF had dual controls in the back seat of a Phantom--unlike the Navy/Marines. At first, rated pilots were the backseaters. Pilots started becoming scarcer, and it was decided special skills for weapons systems made more sense, so the AF went to Navs. Navy always had RIOs who just did the WSO stuff, no flying. At George and then Udorn--particularly at the 13th and Nickel, it was decided backseaters needed to have as much flying skill as possible--to at least take the plane to a safe bailout area, should the FuF be unable, and in a best case bring it home. Many did just that. Some were given a lot of stick time, myself included, and called, as I recall, Category 2As. I took off, flew mission legs, delivered ordnance and landed the bird many times, and having had exceptional hand-eye coordination--and easily corrected to 20-15 vision, was a good "stick." The people I offered as references would attest to that, but also readily say I was a WSO. Because, I was. Being picked to go to F-111Ds at Cannon was supposedly in recognition of this skill--Aardarvarks are/were side to side, Pilot/WSO, and an endorsement to UPT--then waiverable for vision only, had I chosen.

Now, as to how we got here...my outrage at Bunk, et al was based on being called a 'wannabe,' someone who did not serve in SEA and claims that he did. I don't need to verify that I was there anymore than I have, so will let that go. I did not see his aim at the "pilot" poser primary target, not service in SEA. I should have, but the red mist was too strong. Rereading some posts, I do now. For me to not say I was a WSO--and proud of it, would demean all of us who were--including the top Ace in Nam, who was a backseater. It also diminishes the fact that for every frontseater shot down and made a guest of the NVN--F-4s or Weasel Thuds, and the Navy 2 seaters, as well, there was a WSO or Bear or RIO joining him. The Fightergators, me included, shared every bit of the danger, and often got a chance to be a pilot which most of us would have preferred. Again, no apology for what I was and did, and no apology for my anger at seemingly having a year plus of my life serving my country in wartime questioned. But I'll take the hit at not having sense enough to see the forrest for the trees.

That all being said, if Bunk's aim was the pilot piece--and in certain circumstances when asked what I did, I do say fighter pilot--but only to people where going into the distinction between a fighter pilot and fighter gator isn't worth the time, if questioned by someone worth going into it, I do, then I'm guilty of not following the battle and if that makes me a poser, ok...I can live with that with no problem. I can't, however, live with being--even innocently, guilty of less than pride in what I was and the guys who shared the title of GiB with me.

Anyway, I always intended full disclosure, and I do apologize for being late in providing it. As the thread is dying out, I guess the easy thing would be just to keep my mouth shut. However, as I said, I take pride in what I did, have a bond with all who flew the Rhino--front or back seat, and owe the full truth. Here it is.

I don't know what to say. Which version is this, 3 or 4? Regardless, I'm done with the Whiterock issue and your actions speak butt loads as to why I brought this issue up initially.

Edited September 4, 2007 by bunk22

[Guest Whiterock]

Sir or ma'am,

I hope you'll understand a little bit of skepticism from some, ok, me. This is the fourth-ish version of your persona - Blackstar, Dimestore, pilot Whiterock, now this one. There may be other versions floating around on other sites as well. Personally, I'd like you to be a Vietnam vet, the view from the 'other side' of combat - having served, been shot at, then coming home to see it end - is something worthwhile to hear.

However, with so many versions of the story, a few quick questions:

Why was the photo of you taken in the front seat of the F-4?

What was your nav class #?

Where did you attend UNT? In what training aircraft did you fly and for what phases of UNT?

What were the nav's pre-flight duties on the F-4?

Who were any of these: Moonbeam, Cricket, Hillsboro, or Alleycat?

Do you still hold that Blackstar is/was somebody else in your office area using a common computer and 'stealing' your experiences?

Yes, I understand a bit of skepticism from you, and although I thought I had explained myself, and I don't see that there is any doubt that can remain about my SEA service, your questions are fair.

First off, I never claimed to be 'pilot' Whiterock. If I had read this correctly, I would have cleared what I did with the 13th up immediately, but I didn't see the pilot piece as the key, rather the SEA service. I did not have to post anything today, and could have let the impressions be what they were. But I was not a pilot, and never claimed to be, and could not let anyone think otherwise that I was lying about it. Honesty dictated that. I think I said I have nothing to sneak around about having been a WSO. I think I also said my ONLY interest was in substantiating that I served in SEA, in '73 with the 13th at Udorn. The explanation was a 'day short,' perhaps, but I did make it clear today and I didn't have to.

All squadron photos were posed from the front seat. Why, I don't know, they just were. We no longer had "crews" that flew together by then. You could be with 5 different guys on 5 different sorties.

I graduated, from Mather AFB, Sacramento--where all Navs were trained then, 7 Sep 1972. Colonel Norris Overly, a former POW and the Wing CC pinned our wings on. Don't know the class, but my Aero Rating cert says course N-V6A-A, if that's it. Remember, 1972--35 years ago, most of my papers have long since been lost in moves. We flew T-29 trainers for all segments, from map reading, dead reckoning, radar, celestial, etc. The T-29 was replaced with a jet trainer a while after I left, just as Mather has been closed for quite a while. If you went to a SAC post, and Mather had a SAC tenant, you took EWO or Nav-bombadier follow on training there, as well. Fighters went to CCRT, combat crew replacement training.

The WSO checked all weapons loads, took the number from the 20MM of rounds expended, if flying an E, and looked with the frontseater at any leaks, wear on the tires, open panels, checked the maint records and basically anything else briefed beforehand. Remember, it was his ass on the line just as much as the FuF.

Again, it's been a long time, but I think you're referring to the 130s that were the predecessor to AWACS as airborn command posts. They were EC-130s and called in Pave Spike/Nail laser guided bomb missions. We used Crown, College Eye, and another whose name escapes me, plus Nail and Misty (fast) facs, as well in Cambodia. One was day one was night, Moonbeam being night one would suppose, wouldn't one...Hillsboro was in that vein, but I can't really place where or how. I had thought Alleycat was for ground based strike teams, but I may be mistaken.

I have nothing to say about Blackstar. I thought I made that clear. I wasn't harmed by him in any way, unless you consider it was the instigation for me to come here and post. But if I wanted to be someone neat on a CAR FORUM, I would chose a different persona. Maybe Jack Bauer from 24, or probably a race driver...don't you think?

As far as the guy from the 8th and his bs flag, I don't know what GiBs did there, sit with their hands folded cold mike the whole flight? We didn't, at least not with the 13th and not with the Triple Nickel. We were fightergators and demanded to be treated with the respect that entailed. Flight Commanders and IPs flew extra missions with selected backseaters and gave them as much flight time as possible. That made for a better crew, and with the shooting war over, kept morale higher. It also had a group of WSOs who could fly with the new frontseaters that came in fresh from UPT and give them a bit more support. I don't know nor do I care what happened at Ubon, and for someone who wasn't at Udorn to presume to say what we did or didn't do is bs.

That's it, folks. Have at it. I *****d up by not making full disclosure sooner. If I would have read all the posts instead of just the ones that questioned my service, I would have. And I could have kept quiet and let it lie. But I didn't. To my generation of Vietnam vets, that is a hot button. I know men who were POWS and plenty have claimed to be that were not. Many"vets" buy new jungle dress and march in parades--some who were about 11 when the shooting stopped in '73. By the same token, those who did serve honorably should never be denied that recognition. They didn't get any parades. Some of you will understand what I'm saying, the others can think what they like.

[Guest alfakilo]

As far as the guy from the 8th and his bs flag, I don't know what GiBs did there, sit with their hands folded cold mike the whole flight? We didn't, at least not with the 13th and not with the Triple Nickel. We were fightergators and demanded to be treated with the respect that entailed.

They did the same thing the WSOs did at Udorn...and that did not include making the takeoff or 'delivering ordnance'. You failed to answer my question about what deliveries you did from the back seat. I'm interested in knowing exactly how you flew the pass.

BTW...earlier, you said something that made it sound like you and your AC flew strafing passes at low altitude. Is that your claim? If so, why did you violate the standing 7thAF restriction against operations below 4500'AGL? We had Es at Ubon and the only guy I knew who violated this got his nuts cut off.

It also had a group of WSOs who could fly with the new frontseaters that came in fresh from UPT and give them a bit more support.

They were called "IWSOs" and every F-4 unit had them, SEA or anywhere else. I was an IP...were you an IWSO?

I don't know nor do I care what happened at Ubon, and for someone who wasn't at Udorn to presume to say what we did or didn't do is bs.

I said that what you claimed was far outside the boundaries of what went on in a typical F-4 squadron. Maybe you Udorn guys acted like that...but the rest of the F-4 community sure as hell did not.

To my generation of Vietnam vets, that is a hot button.

Exactly...which is why your comments have drawn so much fire here.

[Guest Karl]

The more legit people you get on your site, the more legit it will become.

Is that a Yogi Berra quote?

[Guest Fuse]

I have some great news guys.

I just saved a bunch of money by switching to Geico.