AFSCs and Technical Disadvantage?

[Guest Tron]

I understand how the OM works for categorization, but does the commander directly recommend an AFSC (other than through UCR)? For rated and nonrated?

I know that cadets compete for pilot slots nationally. Is this true for non-rated AFSCs as well? Or are commanders encouraged to fill hard to fill jobs? For instance, two cadets with equal GPA, one a history major and the other an electrical engineer. Would the commander have any reason to recommend (or give a lower UCR to) the engineer for an engineering job rather than a pilot slot because EE is a critical shortage?

[MCO]

pilot slots are completely seperate from non-rated... Everyone is on equal footing for the rated board...

how the non-rated stuff works I couldn't tell you.

[brabus]

Would the commander have any reason to recommend (or give a lower UCR to) the engineer for an engineering job rather than a pilot slot because EE is a critical shortage?

No. The only way that would happen is if the CC is a huge piece of shit and possibly really hates that engineering kid, so he rates him way lower than he actually should be just to "screw him" out of a pilot slot. Conceivable I guess, but I would hope there's no Det CCs out there who are that big of fags. You have nothing to worry about by being an engineer and competing for a slot. I know several EE types who are flying.

[osulax05]

2 on what Brabus said... hopefully no PAS' are that big of POS'

One thing I regret from ROTC is that nobody, including myself ever asked the cadre exactly how things worked for assignments and the like. Everyone (read: all cadets) seemed sure that they knew how things worked \but nobody got the info straight from the source. If you really want to know how it works... ask. There are some things that your cadre probably won't answer but you'll never know until you ask.

[Guest ChicksDigRotorHeads]

No. The only way that would happen is if the CC is a huge piece of shit and possibly really hates that engineering kid, so he rates him way lower than he actually should be just to "screw him" out of a pilot slot. Conceivable I guess, but I would hope there's no Det CCs out there who are that big of fags. You have nothing to worry about by being an engineer and competing for a slot. I know several EE types who are flying.

Say I got selected for a NAV slot. When could I try to get a Pilot slot? BOT right?

[magnetfreezer]

Say I got selected for a NAV slot. When could I try to get a Pilot slot? BOT right?

Are you ROTC (you do not go to BOT) or OTS (aka BOT)? If you are ROTC and put pilot as your first choice and do not get it there is a waiting list which they can draw from in case people with pilot slots fail out their senior year, get med DQ, etc. Once you are on active duty there are AD pilot boards you can apply to as well as non-rated or after a certain amount of time in service as nav.

[Guest chrisLS1]

EE with a Pilot Slot right here!!! In fact all of the Pilot selects in my commissioning class were some kind of engineering. I heard that there is a 1.1 multiplier to offset for some of the more difficult technical majors... I'm not sure how much truth there is to that.

[R-Dub]

...I'm not sure how much truth there is to that.

None.

[brabus]

None.

Agreed, but it is possible that a Det CC may take into account major when he does the class rankings. Regardless, that's still not a good reason to do engineering over basket weaving. It honestly is NOT a smart idea to major in engineering unless you WANT to be an engineer or plan on using the engineering degree after retirement/getting out of the AF. If you're dream is to fly, why the hell would you do all that extra bs for no reason?

[hindsight2020]

Regardless, that's still not a good reason to do engineering over basket weaving. It honestly is NOT a smart idea to major in engineering unless you WANT to be an engineer or plan on using the engineering degree after retirement/getting out of the AF. If you're dream is to fly, why the hell would you do all that extra bs for no reason?

^

Hence why my sn is hindsight....In my own defense, the situation for the avg college freshman is a little more complicated, but in the end the advice above is about the honest truth. The problem is that most folks don't know what they want when they're 18 and a college freshman, and even if they said they did (I thought I did) you have NO idea what it's like to be an engineer...you really don't. Most people I know who continued to pursue the field after getting the degree did so because they were stuck, too far along the program to begin a new degree and with enough college debt they needed the d$mn job (such as myself). The other issue is this whole idea of the fallback value of the engineering degree. Let me tell you, there is none. I am in the same boat if I lose my medical clearance with an engineering degree as I would with a degree in economics. Engineering firms want recency of experience and relevance of experience. If you have none, (a pilot would have none) then you're at the start of the line, and they'd be hard pressed to give you a job, and even if you were to get it it'd be an entry-level position and a huge paycut for those getting out of the pilot game after a decade or so. Some people make it happen, those who were more interested in the tron gadgets than in being pilots, while they were pilots in the AF (there are quite a few of those, which baffles me but I'm just a dumb pilot with a smart degree lol), but most people wouldn't be able to hook that up. In the civie world, if you don't intern with some company for a while, forget it, you'll have a hell of a time getting a competitive eng job if you interview cold turkey; so that's for a recent grad, somebody trying to get back in the game as a fallback plan, *RexKWAnDO* ¡Forget it about it!

Is it good general knowledge? Absolutely, plus people think you're smart in social circles, which helps in networking. Other than that, what he said, wayyyy too much BS to get to the same place, and it doesn't make you a better stick and rudder , not that all AF planes really require to have those skills to begin with..I keed I keed.

Major in finance! Good luck

[Dubs]

even if they said they did (I thought I did) you have NO idea what it's like to be an engineer...you really don't.

So so so so so true

Most people I know who continued to pursue the field after getting the degree did so because they were stuck, too far along the program to begin a new degree and with enough college debt they needed the d$mn job (such as myself).

<-- Same for this guy

The other issue is this whole idea of the fallback value of the engineering degree. Let me tell you, there is none. I am in the same boat if I lose my medical clearance with an engineering degree as I would with a degree in economics. Engineering firms want recency of experience and relevance of experience. If you have none, (a pilot would have none) then you're at the start of the line, and they'd be hard pressed to give you a job, and even if you were to get it it'd be an entry-level position and a huge paycut for those getting out of the pilot game after a decade or so.

Here's where I disagree. My dad did electrical engineering when he was in college with the full understanding that he was going back into the military... it took him two boards, but he finally got accepted to OTS and his job was Comm. The Communications field has a good amount of relevance to EE/CpE, but since he was an officer that relevance wouldn't really help him out too much (because he wouldn't be doing the hands on stuff... if Comm O's do, I apologize, I'm just going off the pearl's of wisdom he gave me), but it was the management side of managing those getting the EE related experience and doing the EE related work that helped him. So for his master's degree he picked up an MBA, realizing he wouldn't be in the AF his whole life and that an engineering degree alone wouldn't help at all.

So to make a long story short, my dad was RIF'ed out of the AF and shot offers like crazy from civilian companies because of his education and he now makes six figures simply being an engineer managing engineers.

Needless to say, I'm going the MBA route, hah. I have no desire really to make money engineering (it's fun using it in my own side projects), but to manage engineers or manage anyone, yeah... I think I could do that.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Dubs

[addict]

Needless to say...

indeed.

[hindsight2020]

I rest my case. He wouldn't be caught dead on the technical track. I applaud your dad for being proactive and making lemonade out of a potential career pigeon-holing. But I gotta tell ya, there's a boatload of engineers who are planning to do just that: get an MBA so they can get themselves out of the technical drudge work hell, and into management, which by the way it is the only way to jump into six figure land; the technical side of engineering plateaus below six figures in most industries. Had he not pursued his MBA the tune of that song would be quite different.

My point was that for the sake of being a pilot, you can see how the fallback value of the engineering degree becomes an even wider stretch, since the career skills you develop as a pilot have absolutely no correlation to most engineering jobs (unless you pitch the magic consulting gig), so by the time you would actually need the degree to save you, you'd be better off with an accounting degree, or a finance degree, or a nursing degree, or a..you catch my drift.

Not that I'm saying choosing to be a pilot is that smart of a decision career-wise (airline work in the dump and such) but one has to choose some type of work that makes your life somewhat worthwhile. I was faced with that decision a couple of years ago and I still chose to become a pilot in spite of the unstable nature of such work. The prospect of starring at a CAD/CATIA scope all day made me physically sick to my stomach, I used to moonlight at a retail store catalog department part-time with a masters in engineering mind you, and as much as that job sucked I slept better at night knowing I was doing it for the money and I didn't have to take the job home with me like the aforementioned eng gig. All that said I admit that as a military pilot that decision was made easier since I would effectively be able to forego the regionals; for my fully-civilian counterparts to make the same decision would be much tougher starring at the regionals in the face.

To those about to embark in the major picking deal, choose wisely, research the field, and if you're wanting to become an AF pilot, for your own sake do not fall for the "eng degree will give me an edge". Good luck

[Dubs]

My point was that for the sake of being a pilot, you can see how the fallback value of the engineering degree becomes an even wider stretch, since the career skills you develop as a pilot have absolutely no correlation to most engineering jobs (unless you pitch the magic consulting gig), so by the time you would actually need the degree to save you, you'd be better off with an accounting degree, or a finance degree, or a nursing degree, or a..you catch my drift.

Ahhhh, ok I gotcha

To those about to embark in the major picking deal, choose wisely, research the field, and if you're wanting to become an AF pilot, for your own sake do not fall for the "eng degree will give me an edge". Good luck

I whole heartedly agree. I've said this before, but if I could go back in time... I'm fairly certain Engineering would not have been my choice for a major

[LJ Driver]

I'm sure things have changed in 8+ years since I commissioned through ROTC at ERAU. I was an Aero Eng major and it was very obvious when I saw the AFROTC senior class ladder that almost regardless of your GPA, your major was a big player in the overall rating. Guys that were pulling in a 4.0 in a JV degree program were overall ranked below others that had a tech degree and a 3.0. The formula is easy to manipulate. The CC knows where he wants each kid to end up in the overall ranking, and all he needs to do is write an excel formula to figure out what that specific kid's CC ranking needs to be to get him there. I'm pretty sure that even an Aero Science major might be able to do that...

If you like science/physics/math/computers follow your heart and kick ass. If I had majored in a different "easier" degree I would have done quite shitty in school because I would have wanted to shoot myself after class every day.