Fuel Burn

[pawnman]

Any word on that winglet plan?

[brickhistory]

I understand your point as well...but FWIW, I've been flying in the AF for 12 years. If I were AD, it'd work out to about $96,000/year.

A 12 year FedEx 757 Captain would make $173,000 plus per diem. An FO makes $143,000.

A 12 year UPS captain would make $217,000, and an FO would be at $148,000. Those numbers are just for "pilot guarantee" hours.

Ok, going into ever narrowing circles until the fundamental orifice is reached, you used FEDEX/UPS numbers which, in addition to the numbers already explained about widebody/narrow, differ markedly from the major carriers, i.e. "airline pilots" which was the term used. Run those numbers and get back to me if you think they (airline F/Os and low time left seat domestic guys) are making the $140K + numbers as they did in years past. UPS/FEDEX management would love to wind their pay scales back to those of, say, United or Delta. I'm not defending either side, just my observation on the pay issue.

Now, as to the USAF fuel burn issue, since I am not a military pilot, I can't voice a pertainent argument. But training like you fight - as mentioned the difference in handling/performance for a heavyweight assualt landing/T.O vs. a 'fuel efficient' sortie is but one difference between the civil operators who are out to be the most efficient vs. military which is supposed to be the most capable in its role. It is an apples and oranges comparison in my non-rated opinion.

I am exiting this fight as a non-player...............

[HerkDerka]

Those of you who believe that the AF and the military as a whole is not a business, is sadly mistaken. Business as defines my Wiki:

In predominantly capitalist economies, where most businesses are privately owned, businesses are typically formed to earn profit and grow the personal wealth of their owners. The owners and operators of a business have as one of their main objectives the receipt or generation of a financial return in exchange for their work and their acceptance of risk. Notable exceptions to this rule include cooperative businesses and government institutions. This model of business functioning is contrasted with socialistic systems, which involve either government, public, or worker ownership of most sizable businesses.

As the above definition state, business are typically formed for profit, however, not all business are. Some examples are non-profit and charitable organizations (or business). Although, the form of business the military (hence the AF is involved is atypical, nonetheless the US military is a business. We take resources (individuals, equipments, etc) and process then to provide a service (product) to our country (customer). Our goal or objective is to stand in defense of the might country and be the best military second to none. Think of it as a state owned business. We possess all the attributes of a business, except the nature, objective and scope is different and we haven't been taught to think of the military (or AF) as a business unit.

The key purpose of most business is profit maximization, however not all business are profit oriented. If you all will allow me, I believe our military profit is earned when we win wars, conflicts and finally, knowing that because of our actions, mother USA is always safe.

But as many have said, we need to be effective and efficient at what we do, using some of the principles of a typical business applicable to the military, we however should remember or not get carried away trying to fit into their shoes. As ours is of an atypical nature objective and scope) and the environment within which we perform said business is absolutely different from that of the civilian operated business.

YGBSM.

HD

[Champ Kind]

Those of you who believe that the AF and the military as a whole is not a business, is sadly mistaken. Business as defines my Wiki:

In predominantly capitalist economies, where most businesses are privately owned, businesses are typically formed to earn profit and grow the personal wealth of their owners. The owners and operators of a business have as one of their main objectives the receipt or generation of a financial return in exchange for their work and their acceptance of risk. Notable exceptions to this rule include cooperative businesses and government institutions. This model of business functioning is contrasted with socialistic systems, which involve either government, public, or worker ownership of most sizable businesses.

As the above definition state, business are typically formed for profit, however, not all business are. Some examples are non-profit and charitable organizations (or business). Although, the form of business the military (hence the AF is involved is atypical, nonetheless the US military is a business. We take resources (individuals, equipments, etc) and process then to provide a service (product) to our country (customer). Our goal or objective is to stand in defense of the might country and be the best military second to none. Think of it as a state owned business. We possess all the attributes of a business, except the nature, objective and scope is different and we haven't been taught to think of the military (or AF) as a business unit.

The key purpose of most business is profit maximization, however not all business are profit oriented. If you all will allow me, I believe our military profit is earned when we win wars, conflicts and finally, knowing that because of our actions, mother USA is always safe.

But as many have said, we need to be effective and efficient at what we do, using some of the principles of a typical business applicable to the military, we however should remember or not get carried away trying to fit into their shoes. As ours is of an atypical nature objective and scope) and the environment within which we perform said business is absolutely different from that of the civilian operated business.

Dude, are you even in the Air Force?

YGBSM.

"2"

[Guest TheBurt]

Can I do a "3", er, ahhhhhhh, the Air Force is not a business, however I could be sadly mistaken.

[Crog]

Oh, it's a business all right.....

Just a badly run one. Face it; if we were a business we'd be bankrupt in a week! Just because you put motivational posters up in the (pick your favorite base entity here) office about serving your "customers" does not a business make. Example: CENTCOM's effort to run OEF/OIF using a FedEx model of "packages-to-schedule". How many "Tiger Teams" got HFP investigating why C-130's were flying 0-1 missions empty?!

You might have a point: I think we should send feedback forms to our "customers" and ask if our weapons delivery was accurate and on-time. Of course, a "no response" should be assumed to be satisfactory.....

[amcflyboy]

Oh, it's a business all right.....

Just a badly run one. Face it; if we were a business we'd be bankrupt in a week! Just because you put motivational posters up in the (pick your favorite base entity here) office about serving your "customers" does not a business make. Example: CENTCOM's effort to run OEF/OIF using a FedEx model of "packages-to-schedule". How many "Tiger Teams" got HFP investigating why C-130's were flying 0-1 missions empty?!

You might have a point: I think we should send feedback forms to our "customers" and ask if our weapons delivery was accurate and on-time. Of course, a "no response" should be assumed to be satisfactory.....

What can "blue" do for you??

[Guest momann]

Dude, are you even in the Air Force?

"2"

Just because you disagree with my statement doesn't make it fiction or untrue. Agree or disagree, the AF (and military as a whole) is a business, not one for profit purposes and it's atypical. I guess the "TOP GUNS" are only getting serious about it now because of budget slashing, but most of the guys who've been in a while could definitely say they saw this coming with the various policy implementations over the years to make the AF most efficient (business).

Edited October 18, 2007 by momann

[PirateAF]

Just because you disagree with my statement doesn't make fiction or untrue. Agree or disagree, the AF (and military as a whole) is a business, not one for profit purposes and it's atypical. I guess the "TOP GUNS" are only getting serious about it now because of budget slashing, but most of the guys who've been in a while could definitely say they say this coming with the various policy implementations over the years to make the AF most efficient (business).

You should stick to quoting Wikipedia because I couldn't understand your last post at all.

hmmm...

Perhaps you're some foreign grad student fishing for information for a master's paper?

...and FWIW: "4"

[HerkDerka]

I guess the "TOP GUNS" are only getting serious about it now because of budget slashing.

Stop digging.

HD

Edited October 17, 2007 by HerkDerka

[Champ Kind]

[amcflyboy]

Heres the fix!

Go to PACAF where everything is so fncked up that no one notices how much gas you takeoff or land with!!!

Seriously - I flew a 5 day mission that went to Afganistan and back from AK. On the return leg I asked to max the tanks (180K) but our flight plan only said 169K. I got the stink eye from Airman Snuffy (who was only covering his ass and making sure he did his job right). I then had to justify why I wanted the extra 11K, the guys' DO apparently was going to throw a fit if they gave us the extra gas. I asked him if it was the AMC initialtive to concerve gas... he confirmed it was. I then told the guy "Sweet, Im in PACAF. I will take the heat if your DO wants to chew someones ass."

We got the gas, no questions asked. No phone calls. No waivers. No problem.

Bottom line: Sucks to be at Travis!

Also, since the 'initiative' started I have twice had to get a waiver from god to get an extra 20K... only to land at my destination with 20K on board, both times due to unforecast winds. It hasnt happened every time, but ONCE is enough. TWICE makes you second guess EVERYTHING... as you should IMHO.

If some dude at TACC wont give me the gas the MC says I need, I wont take the line, simple as that. Dont let yourself get pushed into an unsafe situation by some fuel-saving initiative instituted by the bean counters...

Chuck

Sweet, I'll pass that on to our crews as they transit through Hickham on their way to Christchurch! When we're on the ice, we belong to PACAF, NOT AMC.

[HercDude]

I guess the "TOP GUNS" are only getting serious about it now because of budget slashing. . .

Iceman and Slider are ALWAYS serious.

I have never in my life ever heard anyone in the military call the AF leadership "top guns", let alone in ALL CAPS. Wow.

[Guest momann]

OK, I'm some foreign grad student looking for research paper material. Does that make you feel better?

Often when comments are made that differs from some members' point of view, they act childish and throw personal attacks, instead of addressing the topic of discussion. Blows below the belt are inappropriate. I believe this forum was meant as an intellectual arena for peer development and info exchange, however, some believe it's their domain where things must be their way or the highway. That might be the case for some, but its defeats the purpose for sound conversations or intellectual sparing and the exchange of info.

"TOP GUNS": Just because you haven't heard AF leadership being referred to as such doesn’t mean it is right or wrong (slang are made up). It's my choice of words and capitalized to emphasize that. How do you think some of the slang you presently use came about? Stop being narrow minded and condemning. Maybe you should try being creative, and your world would be more colorful than black and white.

FYI: I've been in the AF for 9 yrs and will get commission in the next four to six weeks, Therefore, I know what I'm taking about and have seen it in action; I'm saying is not from thin air. Added this because of comments made earlier towards me, and I believe it intended to determine if I was speaking with authority (from knowledge and experience).

I’ll not comment any further along such lines. I believe that you’re all entitled to your opinions and it’s not my job to change your opinion, but rather share what I know and believe on a topic. Keep your opinion(s) if you dislike or disagree with mine or continue quibbling. It’s not my dilemma either way.

[Champ Kind]

FYI: I've been in the AF for 9 yrs and will get commission in the next four to six weeks, Therefore, I know what I'm taking about and have seen it in action; I'm saying is not from thin air. Added this because of comments made earlier towards me, and I believe it intended to determine if I was speaking with authority (from knowledge and experience).

Does your job have anything to do with flying?

Based on the comments you've made in this thread, and past threads, I doubt it.

"TOP GUNS": Just because you haven't heard AF leadership being referred to as such doesn't mean it is right or wrong (slang are made up). It's my choice of words and capitalized to emphasize that. How do you think some of the slang you presently use came about? Stop being narrow minded and condemning. Maybe you should try being creative, and your world would be more colorful than black and white.

As for the origins of the slang or jargon in the aviation community, I'm pretty sure it probably started a long time ago (think Wright Bros.), and its roots are a little more deep than some dude on an internet forum trying to make himself sound cool.

Bottom line: give it a rest. You've hijacked this thread enough. It's about fuel burn, and the fact that Big Blue is now watching mobility assets in the consumption of said fuel, with a little bit of experience-talk peppered in about what the A-code should do when some planner tells him not to put on a full bag of gas. You trying to turn this into a debate about military vs. corporate America is not fruitful, and is actually taking away from the original conversation.

[PirateAF]

I called that one!