T-6's Crash

[Ram]

Wanna know what REALLY sucks about this (besides the loss of two of our toys)?

Some people this week are getting a call to become part of the SIB. November 30th + 30 days performing the SIB = Christmas in Mississippi.

Bummer, dude.

[Guest thefranchise]

Maybe I missed this story somewhere....why was the line suspended?

FAA stomped Raytheon on the wing spar issue and wont let them deliver any new aircraft until the issue is resolved. That 7.0 to 5.5 g reduction ISS.

[shiznitobam_allstars]

So at $4.3M per copy (USAF fact sheet pricing there!) that's $8,600,000 down the shitter.

If it had been mighty tweet jets playing bumper cars, we'd be looking at $330,000 for BOTH.

I wonder how much Tweet maintenance and jet fuel you could pay for with the spare change from just this one mishap.

Glad to hear everyone made it out.

Firstly - tweet schmeet, get over it.

Secondly - That ejection seat on the T-6 kicks arse. Glad everyone made it out.

[TacAirCoug]

Firstly - tweet schmeet, get over it.

Secondly - That ejection seat on the T-6 kicks arse. Glad everyone made it out.

'2' on both counts. If it had been Tweets you'd likely be looking at $330,000 AND 4 crew members "down the sh!tter." Losing $8.6 Mil is clearly the better deal.

[Ram]

Wanna know what REALLY sucks about this (besides the loss of two of our toys)?

Some people this week are getting a call to become part of the SIB. November 30th + 30 days performing the SIB = Christmas in Mississippi.

Bummer, dude.

Disregard my previous.

I talked with the Safety Shop here at KSPS today. By noon they'd already gotten FOUR volunteers to go to the board. FOUR??? WTF??? (Losers without family or Christmas plans?) haha.

[Hacker]

If it had been Tweets you'd likely be looking at $330,000 AND 4 crew members "down the sh!tter." Losing $8.6 Mil is clearly the better deal.

This statement is completely talking out your ass. You say this as if there weren't all ready several successful Tweet ejections that were a result of midairs. I can think of two in the last 5 years that were both midairs and both resulted in successful ejections of both crew. On the other hand I can think of zero unsuccessful ejections.

So, what exactly was it about this midair and ejection that was within the capabilities of the T-6 seat but outside the capabilities of the Tweet seat?

I don't get how people these days are thinking of the Tweet as some flying deathtrap that was about to kill you if you looked at it wrong. The Tweet is arguably the most successful pilot trainer in history...before you start making sweeping generalizations about how safe it was, ask yourself why it was kept in service 40+ years and trained something on the order of 100,000 pilots worldwide.

[Champ Kind]

I don't get how people these days are thinking of the Tweet as some flying deathtrap that was about to kill you if you looked at it wrong. The Tweet is arguably the most successful pilot trainer in history...

For a minute, I thought you were talking about the T-34.

[TacAirCoug]

This statement is completely talking out your ass. You say this as if there weren't all ready several successful Tweet ejections that were a result of midairs. I can think of two in the last 5 years that were both midairs and both resulted in successful ejections of both crew. On the other hand I can think of zero unsuccessful ejections.

So, what exactly was it about this midair and ejection that was within the capabilities of the T-6 seat but outside the capabilities of the Tweet seat?

I don't get how people these days are thinking of the Tweet as some flying deathtrap that was about to kill you if you looked at it wrong. The Tweet is arguably the most successful pilot trainer in history...before you start making sweeping generalizations about how safe it was, ask yourself why it was kept in service 40+ years and trained something on the order of 100,000 pilots worldwide.

Throttle back there, pal...he made it all about money, I was just pointing out that it could have been worse. I'm just a Tweet fan who likes to play devil's advocate once in a while.

Edit: I don't think either aircraft is as bad as their respective detractors say. Looking back at my previous post I can see how I made it seem otherwise.

[MacGyver]

tas, nacws, whatever. Wouldn't you rather be in an airplane with one, rather than nothing? no one should ever rely on one, but it is nice to have a picture. The T-44c has a tas, and the image is worth a lot on low levels. even the nacws in the t-6 could help you determine where to look.

[Guest Robes]

Does anyone know what paint scheme was on the two planes? I remember seeing a few grey and black ones a few years ago and was told that is what the AF was going to on the T-6. I remember thinking how hard that would be to see on an overcast day.

Robes

[Guest Jpilot]

Rather than getting in to a deep discussion of the finer points of NACWS, does anyone have any details on the crash?

[Guest mjk5401]

Rather than getting in to a deep discussion of the finer points of NACWS, does anyone have any details on the crash?

Isn't there anyone from Columbus that can give us un-privelaged information? Was it during formation, pattern work, etc. Anyone know if it's been in the 19 AF Hot Topics?

[Guest Gumps]

Word on the street is it happened at the VFR entry point or thereabouts. From the sounds of it, at Shakaka this is a pretty sketchy place.

Side note: I didn't think you could volunteer for SIB positions, I thought there were tappings, like being knighted...

or something.

[Torch169]

I think it's almost certain that it was somewhere around VFR entry. Just about everyone I know, including myself, had the shit scared out of themself at least once at that point. Honestly, I don't think it matters how well the VFR entry point is distinguished by a ground reference, it's always going to be dangerous and regardless of TAS or NACWS or no extra equipment, like in the mighty Tweet, keeping an eye out always works the best.

By the way, they sure as hell don't make 'em like they used to. I'd take a reliable, hearing-destroying Tweet over a Veg-O-Matic anyday. In a short aside, I remember seeing a busted down, flat-tired, faded-out T-6 at Laughlin with the tail number 001. The year it was made: 1995. Twelve years and already a worn out bucket of bolts. Very fine work, Raytheon. And an even better investment by Big Blue.

[Guest thefranchise]

i know that 5 IPs from Vance are going to get tapped for the wonderful job over xmas. the boss is already asking for xmas alibies.

[Guest gtyj98]

This statement is completely talking out your ass. You say this as if there weren't all ready several successful Tweet ejections that were a result of midairs. I can think of two in the last 5 years that were both midairs and both resulted in successful ejections of both crew. On the other hand I can think of zero unsuccessful ejections.

So, what exactly was it about this midair and ejection that was within the capabilities of the T-6 seat but outside the capabilities of the Tweet seat?

I don't get how people these days are thinking of the Tweet as some flying deathtrap that was about to kill you if you looked at it wrong. The Tweet is arguably the most successful pilot trainer in history...before you start making sweeping generalizations about how safe it was, ask yourself why it was kept in service 40+ years and trained something on the order of 100,000 pilots worldwide.

assuming the t-6s were in the TP and approx 1500-2500 AGL, i would say if it were tweets, 4 souls lost isn't an exaggeration.

[Hacker]

assuming the t-6s were in the TP and approx 1500-2500 AGL, i would say if it were tweets, 4 souls lost isn't an exaggeration.

Still not following you. Although it's been many years since I flew the Tweet and had to think about the jet's ejection mins, there's some stuff I DO remember.

The minimum ejection altitude with the zero delay lanyard attached was something like 100' AGL. I'd have to dig out my "Road To Wings' book to get the details, but as I remember there have been numerous pattern altitude ejections that have been successful.

Sink rate and bank angle were always a big issue with the Tweet seat, and IIRC there was a "halfway around the final turn" rule of thumb -- that before halfway through the final turn (700-ish feet and 1500 fpm descent in 30 degree bank angle) you could punch out. After that, it was better to stick with the airplane.

So, given the scenario of a midair at pattern altitude, I still don't see how you're predicting 4 morts simply based on the capabilities of the seat.

[Guest Bender]

This is exactly why I never flew right over the VFR entry point. It had NOTHING to do with never being able to find the damn thing....

That is my story and I'm sticking to it!

I mean really, a dirt road in the bloody woods?!? (at Gunshy anyways, sounds like you guys are talking about a different aux field.) Seriously!

BENDY

[FourFans]

First and foremost, any investment that ensured crew safety is a good investment to me.

However...during my Tweet cross-country, we stopped at KABI for gas. We parked right next to an old retired AF pilot who was flying his own private tweet (painted in A-37 colors). He got it totally referbed for something like $100K (if I remember correctly). It had new engines (not the J85s), a brand new intrument stack and even a new ejection seat. This guy must have been a zillionaire. Needless to say, we were rather depressed as we stepped back into our getto tweet after drooling over his.

I'm not saying that refurbing a 50 year old airplane for training pilots for a digital air force is a good idea. The tweet I flew was old and outdated, it needed to go. I'm just saying that seeing that airplane made me wonder a bit about how wisely the Air Force was spending its money.

I've flown with co-pilots who still tell "so there I was" stories about their T-6 with it's GPS and magical avionics. Of course those are usually the Co's that have the most problems simply trying to get the Herk on the ground or even loading simple waypoint in SCNS (which in my opinion is the shortbus of FMS, but that's another discussion). Then they'll complain about how low tech our airplane is and start back into their T-6 day dreaming. Thankfully, these guys are the exception. As long as UPT is UPT, I don't think it will matter what airplane their flying. I think that the T-6 and the training received in it will always be only as good as the intructors that we put into it. Thankfully, I don't see the quality in that catigory dropping any time soon.

Cheers,

FourFans

[Hacker]

Well, to be honest, with airframes that were approaching and exceeding 15,000 hours when I was flying 'em in 98 (who knows how many hours they've got today), the Tweets needed to be put to pasture. Who knows how many times those tired things were rebuilt and SLEPd and the like...and as we all know the people who flew 'em over all those hours weren't exactly easy on them.

None of this invalidates what a great trainer the Tweet is/was. The P-51 is an awesome airplane, too, but not all the avionics and engine upgrades in the world would make it a viable fighter today (a'la Piper PA-48). It is just time to let the Tweety go -- she's served us well.

I'm actually a fan of the T-6...I think it's a great little airplane and probably does a great job teaching students. Certainly the fuel economy and range are a boon, too.

[afcowboy]

The tweets at Sheppard are now averaging around 20,000 hours. Flew one with 21,000+ before. It's a great airplane for training, no doubt.

The topic of personal ejection minimums is something that is briefed everytime you fly the tweet. Most people agree upon 150 knots OR 500 feet. As long as you have one those, you can pull the handles. Yes, the emergency minimums are lower as well as the -1 parameters for final turn and final, but most people would rather put the airplane on the ground (as long as the airplane isn't breaking up).

From what I have heard about this incident I am glad they had the better seats.

Edited December 1, 2007 by afcowboy

[HercDude]

I'd take a reliable, hearing-destroying Tweet over a Veg-O-Matic anyday.

That's probably because you haven't flown the Veg-O-Matic. I've yet to find anyone under the age of 60 and not currently employed by LSI who has flown both the Tweet and the T-6 who will "take the Tweet anyday."

I flew the Tweet as a stud and now the T-6 as an IP, and I can assure you that the T-6 is a better aircraft in almost every imaginable facet. It's faster, climbs better, quieter, more fuel efficient, has a safer egress system, has a relevant navigation system, has better range, and actually has power. he only thing I've been able to come up with that's inferior to the Tweet is the canopy and off road performance (but you can punch out on the ground and live anyway).

It's a better trainer in almost every facet. I still think side-by-side seating is more appropriate for a basic trainer.

[sputnik]

Having logged 1500 hours in the Tweet, and been a life support guy, the one thing I can say with any level of certainty is--trying to predict survivability based on a news report is kind of retarded.

In general at pattern altitudes and speeds, less than say 45 deg of bank, very survivable. Tweet had a fantastic seat with an incredible set of statistics behind it. It did/does not have a great window, but if you eject within parameters you will almost certainly survive. Possibly with a back injury, but that beats death by a mile.

Back in the day when the T6 was picked many of my Tweet compadres and I had a common set of apprehensions: single engine, prop, tandem seating, etc. Many of those guys went on to fly the T6 and have never looked back. It's a sweet ride. It has problems, sure. I mx canceled quite a few Tweet sorties back in the day and probably should have canceled a few more. I have my doubts the 6 will still be flying in 50 years, but who the hell really knows. I think if you went back to late 50's you'd have trouble finding anyone who'd say the Tweet would still be around into the 2000's.

Hell, there aren't a lot of people who would have predicted the 38 would still be around.

[pawnman]

Fair enough, but remember that in AETC life usually shuts down and it's one of the few times you can get guarenteed leave. Plus, unless your entire range of family and friends is also non Christian, it's usually a good time to catch up with people

Of course, with military folks coming from all over the country, it's possible that there are people from Mississippi volunteering to go...get paid for your vacation, not a bad deal. Working through it sucks, but some folks may be willing to make that trade-off.

How much work willl an SIB do if the rest of the base is shut down for Christmas?

[sputnik]

How much work willl an SIB do if the rest of the base is shut down for Christmas?

Never done a Class A but...a lot. And if they need something, that base will open right back up from Xmass. Granted no fatals so president will be an O6 instead of one star, but they generally don't play. Unlike Bs and Cs, the 30 day time limit is generally adhered to. This could easily turn into Pperation Cancel Christmas for Columbus permanant party.