Top Leadership in the AF...

[Guest cessnajockey]

Today I was browsing the web pages for a lot of Air Force bases around the world. I noticed that many (over half) of the bases were commanded by a Col. or Gen. who was a graduate of the Academy. I looked around for about 10 min trying to find just one ROTC grad that was a base commander before I found one. I was interested in this trend then went searching all of the bases I could think of and found a ratio of about 70% base commanders and wing commanders are Academy grads and about 50% of all major commands and up are Academy grads. I was wondering if anyone had and explanation. I am a new LT ROTC grad and I am trying to figure out why the semi socially challenged end up at the top???

-Thanks!,

Cessna

[amcflyboy]

Today I was browsing the web pages for a lot of Air Force bases around the world. I noticed that many (over half) of the bases were commanded by a Col. or Gen. who was a graduate of the Academy. I looked around for about 10 min trying to find just one ROTC grad that was a base commander before I found one. I was interested in this trend then went searching all of the bases I could think of and found a ratio of about 70% base commanders and wing commanders are Academy grads and about 50% of all major commands and up are Academy grads. I was wondering if anyone had and explanation. I am a new LT ROTC grad and I am trying to figure out why the semi socially challenged end up at the top???

-Thanks!,

Cessna

Choose your words carefully bro, there are Academy grads that do browse these forums.

[PapaJu]

Well for one thing, a good number of service academy grads do career military (not sure of the % but higher percentage as a whole than ROTC/OTS). Hence, you're going to see more in the higher ranks. Different mindset I guess?

[brabus]

I heard back in the day AFA grads had priority over ROTC/OTS guys in different parts of their career. I've also been told that is much less nowadays. Just my guess, but I bet it has more to do w/ the type of person and not exactly where they went to school. I don't have proof, but I would think dudes that have that 30 yr Gen career somewhere in their head have a tendency to go for AFA over ROTC. Just a guess though.

[Guest Boom]

The CSAF is a ROTC grad. The guy he replaced was a ROTC grad. AMC's Commander is a ROTC grad. ACC's Commander is a USAFA grad. AETC's Commander is a USAFA grad. USAFE's Commander is a OTS grad, AFMC's Commander is a ROTC grad. And AFSOC and PACAF's Commander's are USAFA grad.

It's hit or miss on if USAFA grads are more apt to be top leadership. It really depends on the person more than it does the commissioning source.

[Guest Fade77]

While I would consider the majority of ROTC guys I've met to be pretty good dudes, I could say the very same thing (semi-socially retarded) about some select individuals from your beloved AFROTC. Just because you went to a "normal" school does not necessarily make you normal - quite the contrary. Some of the hugest nerds I've met came from your commissioning source (the guy from this summer's AF Times editorial page rings a bell...but that's for another conversation).

Not trying to strike up the age-old ROTC vs. USAFA argument here, just sticking up for my school and fellow graduates (something that doesnt happen enough around here).

As to your question, I feel like you're hinting that some sort of conspiracy is going on in the upper ranks of the Air Force, which I don't believe is true. Maybe it's all a function of timing, and there just happens to be a large number of USAFA grads who are currently wing commanders (and above). Even if that weren't the case, isn't the point of every service academy to develop that service's career officers? You also neglected to mention that our SECAF is a West Pointer, and our Chief of Staff an A&M grad - the two people with the most influence in the entire Air Force....and the very ones who have chosen the Academy grads to be "50%" of their MAJCOM commanders who, in turn, have a strong hand in the nomination of their subordinate one, two, and three stars for their respective positions.

So...it appears to me that our non-Grad Secretary and Chief have chosen the people they think are the best-suited for their respective jobs, and trusted their MAJCOM commanders to do the same - regardless of whether or not they went to the "small engineering school at the foot of the Rockies." I think you're reading too much into this my friend...

--Looks like Boom beat me to it - not quick enough on the keyboard!

Edited December 10, 2007 by Fade77

[Guest xtndr50boom]

The CSAF is a ROTC grad. The guy he replaced was a ROTC grad. AMC's Commander is a ROTC grad. ACC's Commander is a USAFA grad. AETC's Commander is a USAFA grad. USAFE's Commander is a OTS grad, AFMC's Commander is a ROTC grad. And AFSOC and PACAF's Commander's are USAFA grad.

It's hit or miss on if USAFA grads are more apt to be top leadership. It really depends on the person more than it does the commissioning source.

Jesus... Boom, don't you have anything better to do on a sunday night?

For the record, the two biggest douche nozzle O's I've had bad enough luck to serve under were academy grads. Anyone who went through SUU KC-10 FTU last year knows or at the very least has heard about one of them

[Guest cessnajockey]

Choose your words carefully bro, there are Academy grads that do browse these forums.

Im just stating facts... Anyone who goes to the zoo comes out a little tweaked in the head. I guess they make a full recovery... and finally, politics do exist in the AF...

[Herk Driver]

Im just stating facts... Anyone who goes to the zoo comes out a little tweaked in the head. I guess they make a full recovery... and finally, politics do exist in the AF...

Stating facts, huh? So tell me how many Academy grads you've met as a "new LT ROTC grad"? Fucking dipshit.

ROTC, USAFA or OTS, they all produce capable and talented officers. Some individuals happen to be better officer material than others from the beginning.

I'm glad to see that you took a random sample of bases from which to get your data and draw conclusions. You'll do well in senior leadership one day.

[DigDug]

Anyone who goes to the zoo comes out a little tweaked in the head.

True 'dat!

I guess they make a full recovery...

Thinking back (way back) I seem to recall that I could tell the academy grads from the other sources for about a year, maybe two. By the time you pin on 1st LT, you have to ask - If you really care. (I don't)

and finally, politics do exist in the AF...

True 'dat too!

[brickhistory]

Now that everyone gets a reserve commission starting out (DGs, etc, excepted still?), your premise really doesn't hold water anymore. In some esoteric math/statistics universe, it might be interesting to see what percentage of the year groups of your examples were AFA/ROTC/OTS. Bet it's not significant, but I'm a poli sci holder - math hurt cranium......

When RIFs happened and AFA grads already had a regular commission and couldn't be cut, then ROTC and OTS reserve commission holding dudes filled the 'goodbye' quota. So, in that instance, AFA held a distinct advantage and had a better chance of moving up.

It may be a bit more likely given that the Academy, historically, has much higher percentages of folks going to pilot training - many more waivers, etc. But I always thought that was a fair trade for putting up with the four years of AFA. Thus, since 99.9% of USAF four stars have been pilots, then you might have a very thin stick to try and stand on, but it's really pushing it.

Now the three sources all start out equal, so the 'tool' factor is equal as well.

[Guest cessnajockey]

Stating facts, huh? So tell me how many Academy grads you've met as a "new LT ROTC grad"? ######ing dipshit.

ROTC, USAFA or OTS, they all produce capable and talented officers. Some individuals happen to be better officer material than others from the beginning.

I'm glad to see that you took a random sample of bases from which to get your data and draw conclusions. You'll do well in senior leadership one day.

There is really no need to use foul language here... I may have limited military experience but I have seen plenty of academy, ROTC, and OTS grads... I would not make any judgement on them as a whole unless I saw a trend. For example, messed up uniforms, messy hair cuts, unusual need to party ever single night, they talk down to all other commissioning sources, OH yeah and not to mention the ring that they are all constantly wearing. The only ones that stand out to me are academy. They seem a little burned out on the military when they graduate. I am by no means saying ROTC and OTS are perfect but there is a lot I dont understand about the academy.

The officer I most respect and the one who I chose to commission me was an Academy grad. I would agree that they have their amazing officers and people. Based on the ratio's, my point is, there seems to be more Academy Senior Leadership and I want to know why.

-Cessna Out!

[Whitman]

It may be a bit more likely given that the Academy, historically, has much higher percentages of folks going to pilot training

Bingo. ROTC gives out around 550 slots (50-60% selection ratio), while AFA gives out about the same. Except there's a 100% selection ratio more recently, if you can fog a mirror you're going to UPT.

[Guest MizzNav]

I am not AD yet, but i lived with AFA guys for 5 weeks, and i noticed that while there are huge tools, there are a lot of awesome guys too, and the ratio of tool/cool was just like any rotc det.

However, the flight I was in was very us vs. you since i was one of two ROTC guys in a group of 18, but my buddy who was there at the same time had an awesome group of guys that went out with. It was funny though because they had all just turned juniors while we were there, so they had just earned the "privilige" of leaving base to go out, and many had just turned 21, it was like freshman year in the dorms at college all over again.

Not to bash, but when you are under the man's thumb for that long, what can you expect for the first 1-2 years after they get out?

[Whitman]

The only ones that stand out to me are academy. They seem a little burned out on the military when they graduate.

Agreed. I've never met a ROTC grad that's burned out (its nearly impossible), but I've met plenty of jaded AFA grads, which is understandable considering what they've been through.

[Guest Fade77]

Based on the ratio's, my point is, there seems to be more Academy Senior Leadership and I want to know why.

Did you not read the past 15 posts? Plenty of people offered logical answers to answer your question. It seems to me that you're not getting the answer you want to hear (that it's all an Academy conspiracy), and are conveniently ignoring all of the other good explanations.

OH yeah and not to mention the ring that they are all constantly wearing.

Anyone graduating from a regular college that wears their class ring will hear no complaints from anyone around, but as soon as a USAFA grad puts on "the ring" that we all "constantly wear," we're berated for supposedly trying to brag about where we went to school (which is not true at all). It's just a class ring like any other...why are you so offended by it?

Edited December 11, 2007 by Fade77

[brabus]

Im just stating facts... Anyone who goes to the zoo comes out a little tweaked in the head.

I've met far more Academy grads that are "normal" than ones who are tools. The AFA does not produce any more weirdos, tools, d bags, etc than ROTC. As someone else said, the tool/cool ratio is about the same. I had never really been around a lot of AFA guys until coming to Vance (besides the very few who came up north to party), but needless to say I was surprised to find out how most of them are just like me...who would have thought. I guess the only thing that sets them obviously apart is they all know each other in some capacity it seems. But other than that, they're no different...personality or capabilities wise.

It's just a class ring like any other...why are you so offended by it?

I'm wondering that too. But I do remember one time sitting in Finance for 6.9 hrs and there was dude sitting next to me in blues, so we were just talking a bit and finally I asked him where he went to school. The guy literally just made a fist w/ his right hand and just showed the ring to me without saying a word. Now there's the definition of toolbag. Luckily, he's one of the few that I've met like that.

[brickhistory]

The guy literally just made a fist w/ his right hand and just showed the ring to me without saying a word.

I believe the required response in that case was, "Seig heil."

[Guest Boom]

I am not AD yet, but i lived with AFA guys for 5 weeks

Sounds like a Bangbus episode.

[busdriver]

The ring is just a symbol of a shared experience, just like an A&M, Citadel, or Va Tech grad, that's it. It's no different than if you ran into a dude wearing an ROTC tee shirt from your school. As to your apparent hatred for the academies, get over it. No one in the AF gives a crap where you graduated from, grow up.

As far as more USAFA grads in senior leadership....

As a tax payer, you're spending a lot of extra money on grads. If there is literally zero difference in the product, you should be calling to shut down the academy. But if the academy's purpose to produce career officers (it's not an official purpose, and they're not doing a very good job at it anyways) then you should be seeing a higher percentage of grads the higher you go up, not because of favoritism, but because grads are in it for the long haul. I am in no way saying a grad is a better officer than anyone else, since that would be patently false. What I'm saying is if we as tax payers are going to pay for this place, we should be getting something out of it, maybe improved retention is enough, maybe not since I haven't run any numbers.

[Guest MizzNav]

Sounds like a Bangbus episode.

We did ride in large vans a lot, and there was some nudity...

Anyone AFA guys get the pleasure of going through FERL? I was one of 4 lucky ROTC grads to go to overseas bases for the first two weeks, never seen so many people learn how to drink the hard way, as many of the cadets i was with were young enough to drink in Japan but not back in the states.

One thing i learned from my other ROTC buddy in my flight, you cannot trust AFA guys at the banana show at Kadena, they will get you drunk and make you part of the finale...... he wound up get tested when he got home.

EDIT: Extra question, are most AFA girls ugly? All the ones i saw while i was there were, one girl in my flight was supposedly a cheerleader but she had a bit of a 'stash.

Edited December 11, 2007 by MizzNav

[gimmeaplane]

There is really no need to use foul language here...

Au contraire mon frere. You're stirring a great big pot.

For example, messed up uniforms, messy hair cuts, unusual need to party ever single night, they talk down to all other commissioning sources, OH yeah and not to mention the ring that they are all constantly wearing.

!

Not everybody wears their ring. And are you serious about hair cuts?!

I want to know why.

Because they're better than you. Now go color, worry less about non-existent career advantages others don't have, and kick ass at your job.

There's freaks, geeks, and assholes from every source and everywhere you go (a point brabus already made).

[Guest Blu4]

I think cessnajockey has a long, productive AF career ahead of him.

Or not.

As has been stated, there are fvcking idiots from every commissioning source. As proof, you have apparently decided to bolster the ROTC ratio. As soon as you stop worrying about checking every one else out to see how well you stack up in the shower, you'll be a much healthier Lieutenant.

Speaking of which, shouldn't you be studying something?

Best lesson I ever learned as a Lt: think about what you're going to say (post?), say it to yourself, and then don't fvcking say it.

[Hacker]

Nobody gives a rat's @ss where you were commissioned starting the day you show up at your first active duty station. We're all punk Lieutenants and equally worthless on that day.

To think otherwise is ignorant and egotistical.

[Duck]

ROTC has tools too. Usually the guys who come home DG from Field Training. For some it teaches them how to stab people in the back to get what they want. For some others it makes them feel like they are somehow better than everyone else, and the Cadre just reinforce their egos.

We had a senior last year (DG, WG/CC, ENJJPT), who everytime one of his classmates or anyone tried to speak to him, he would go off on some tangent on leadership or being a fighter pilot and speak down to you the whole time. He got ENJJPT and thought he was the Shiz and would come up to AS300 pilot selects and say "Well the good thing about ENJJPT compared to where you are probably going to go to UPT, is that I am going to be a fighter pilot".

Long story short, he almost fails out of IFS, with a tail strike on landing. Great job man. Great job.

Point is whether they are AFA or ROTC, if they are tools, the rest of the AF world is going to sort them out.