Aftermath of a checkride Q3

[ViperStud]

A good friend of mine (seriously) recently suffered a Q3 in the heavy world. First ops assignment type, young and with an otherwise clean FEF. Sounds like a 1 item bust with a ding or two tossed in for good measure. I've been trying to give some advice and all but I really don't know what the short or long term effects are, and I imagine they are different than they would be for me in the fighter world. It sounds like it happens a little more in the heavy world than the fighter world from what I've heard from people already (not talking any sh!t, just a no kidding observation from those I've talked to). Assuming the re-check and everything is fine, what are the ramifications of having one of those in your FEF?

Big picture considerations are...

What doors will it close? (military and future considerations like guard/res, airlines)

What effect will if have on assignments, if any? (this person is up for one)

How rare is this?

Anything you have to offer would be money...

Oh yeah, and fvck Hillary.

[sputnik]

Big picture considerations are...

What doors will it close? (military and future considerations like guard/res, airlines)

What effect will if have on assignments, if any? (this person is up for one)

How rare is this?

Totally depends. Was it a checkride or something that happened on a standard flight?

Doors closing--depends what it was for and how bad it was. Like any other Q3, the more successful checkrides you put to the right of the bust the less it matters.

Future assignments, unless he's up for something competitive where they look at your FEF (i.e. 89th) shouldn't matter. Even if the losing unit thinks he's an idiot, it may help him get a different job just so the losing unit can get rid of him. Again though, as time goes on and the win column goes up, it'll matter less.

In C17s I think it's pretty rare outside the schoolhouse. Not that Altus necessarily busts a lot of guys, but it doesn't happen much in units I've been in. Actually come to think of it, most Q3s I've seen weren't from checkrides, they were from something that happened on a local or mission.

The few buds I know of that have gotten hit did just fine.

At any rate, I don't think it'll hurt him much. Just like UPT, learn, put it behind you and move on.

[Guest Boom]

Depends on the community how often they are handed out. In the -135 there are a lot of Q3's that are given out for various reasons, depends on the Evaluator and what they did. If it's a 1 item bust then it must have fallen under "Safety" in the Vol 2, where it's "Q" or "U" (either being safe or unsafe) or something as dumb as blowing a Open/Close book test or busting for pubs . He'll get some ground training, fly with an IP and go over the area(s) he doofed up on, then a recheck (won't be with the same EP). Having a taco early in their career doesn't have as big of effect as say being a seasoned veteran. I highly doubt that it will close some doors on him however I do think if he wants to apply to certain flying jobs he can't have a Q3 within the past 3-4 years so he'll have to get some Form 8's on top of that Q3.

As for Q3's happening I'm a firm believer that anyone can Q3 at anytime for anything. And as everyone says and it's true, there are those that have and those that will.

It's not the end of the world, just learn from his mistakes and press on.

:beer:

[ViperStud]

Checkride, didn't get it dropped on him for something buffoonerous on a CT sortie. It was a comin'/goin' admin item not something from fence-in to fence-out, don't want to say specifically what just to protect the names and faces of the innocent.

[Guest Bender]

don't want to say specifically what just to protect the names and faces of the innocent.

Right...'cause no one ever sees the Stand/Eval trands and evauation debrief write-ups. You a good bud for caring, but you aren't protecting anyone...at worst you're helping someone else do the same thing next week.

I don't think enough young guys read through those things, but...whatever, add it to the list.

FWIW, the last guy I saw it happen to just was doing too much at once and overspeed the flaps. Just had to recheck and he's had plenty of accolades already this year to make most people forget. I don't just because he needs a good down to earth kick in the nuts here and there.

Over the long term, you just don't get judged by one mistake if you're remotely shit hot. If you're a douche bag...well, it might sting a little bit more.

I just assume that you wouldn't be friends with a douche bag, so...there you have it. Just tell him not to be a ###### up anymore and he'll be fine. ;)

BENDY

[Herk Driver]

A single Q-3 has little effect long-term. As mentioned, 89th and UPT IP jobs look at FEFs (I'm sure there are others). If the guy is shooting for a UPT IP job then there are criteria like no Q-3 within last 3-5 years or something. 89th is probably looking more for the perfect FEF.

It shouldn't effect an assignment really that much. The losing CC obviously knows the story and could use it to steer the guy to one assignment or another based on it, but I haven't seen too much of that in my time. The gaining CC hasn't seen the FEF so he only knows what the losing CC or his buds can tell him.

Multiple Q-3s are a different story altogether. I someone is bringing in multiple Q-3s and can't seem to break the trend, it may be time to look at a different career choice. Herks tend to have a few Q-3s in every crew position every 6-12 months. There are only 3 critical items in a Herk, IIRC so there is a lot of "wiggle room". Don't crucify me if the 3 items is not correct, it's been 32 months since I've seen the inside of an airplane and I don't have the time to find all my EP stuff to check. So, take your pick from a "clean" kill (a guy not putting the gear down after multiple prompts from the EP in the seat) to someone going out and just not being able to fly the plane worth a sh!t coupled with weak GK, I've seen a few of these. Most people recover and do just fine. Put it this way, I have never seen a guy or gal not make AC and most make IP. Ask Boom he knows one of the people I'm talking about.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

As you can see by the responses on this thread, each heavy aircraft has a different mentality about Q3s and how often they go out. Apparently they are rare in Barneys, but not so rare in the tanker world. I'm a Herk IP and I've seen a decent number of Q3s go out, but in all honesty, only about 5-10% of the checkrides end in anything less than Q1. Most busts occur because someone had a bad day, and the Form 8 will generally reflect that. Having a Q3 for something such as GK, safety or judgement can be a bigger hit than someone who simply got behind and forgot to configure or didn't turn the right way in holding.

Tell your friend not to worry and use it as a lesson for the future. If anything, it should be motivation to improve his flying skills and/or GK for the next time around. One bust usually has extremely minor effects on someone's career unless they are going to apply for one of those above-mentioned jobs (UPT/89th).

Do a good job at the non-flying job, and don't get any more Q3s, and in a few years no one will care. Just realize though, that in most squadrons, the IPs and EPs keep an eye on guys that Q3 a checkride, at least until they show that it was either just a bad day or they have shown improvement. I know I did...scheduled to fly with a copilot or nav that busted a checkride, and I always felt I needed to instruct/watch them more closely. Right or wrong, it's just how things work.

[Fozzy Bear]

Things guys in my recent (in)experience have hooked for in the 135:

Running off the runway, hooked by acting sq/cc at deployed location: BIG deal

No Notice checkride; he (a copilot) didn't back up the AC by letting him know gusts were added to the winds called by tower as they were taking the active - both he and the AC hooked (EP in the jumpseat). Lack of SA on the AC... another story. The fact the Co heard the winds and didn't do anything pissed the EP off more, I think. Bad on him and he's bounced back and I don't think it will even disrupt his AC upgrade, since he was a young co at the time. As a copilot, I wouldn't be that worried about it. We get a lot of no notices in the 135 - pretty much you treat every ride with an EP as one anyway - we're graded on every ride like it's UPT (depending on the unit) with the new MPD/ first pilot/ PIQ/ dual qualed/ inhouse upgrade system, and since EPs can hook you at any time for anything... Boom hit it on the head, though I don't feel "threatened" by that possibility.

Third recent example was a hook for landing on the wrong runway - called out after the fact. Pretty big deal, I think.

[Guest Boom]

Ask Boom he knows one of the people I'm talking about.

Yeah, unfortunately that individual was rewarded. Which says a whole lot about the J-Model screening criteria (there isn't any).

[Guest Boom]

Things guys in my recent (in)experience have hooked for in the 135:

Running off the runway, hooked by acting sq/cc at deployed location: BIG deal

No Notice checkride; he (a copilot) didn't back up the AC by letting him know gusts were added to the winds called by tower as they were taking the active - both he and the AC hooked (EP in the jumpseat). Lack of SA on the AC... another story. The fact the Co heard the winds and didn't do anything pissed the EP off more, I think. Bad on him and he's bounced back and I don't think it will even disrupt his AC upgrade, since he was a young co at the time. As a copilot, I wouldn't be that worried about it. We get a lot of no notices in the 135 - pretty much you treat every ride with an EP as one anyway - we're graded on every ride like it's UPT (depending on the unit) with the new MPD/ first pilot/ PIQ/ dual qualed/ inhouse upgrade system, and since EPs can hook you at any time for anything... Boom hit it on the head, though I don't feel "threatened" by that possibility.

Third recent example was a hook for landing on the wrong runway - called out after the fact. Pretty big deal, I think.

I'm surprised the Boom didn't hook on those rides for crew coordination/safety. We've had three Booms Q3 over in the desert for leaving the "bat" in. One of my troops just Q3'd and his periodic checkride for not knowing the limits of a KC-10 when asked by the EB (while in contact) and almost scrapping the shit out of receiver when calling the separation (had too much down pressure while in contact).

[Fozzy Bear]

I'm surprised the Boom didn't hook on those rides for crew coordination/safety. We've had three Booms Q3 over in the desert for leaving the "bat" in. One of my troops just Q3'd and his periodic checkride for not knowing the limits of a KC-10 when asked by the EB (while in contact) and almost scrapping the shit out of receiver when calling the separation (had too much down pressure while in contact).

Though many of our booms would have caught it, I don't think you [the boom] can be hooked for "pilot" specific stuff. You have to know the clearance, but not all the rules associated. I have to know the "bat" should be out, but if you say it's out and it's actually in... a pilot and co didn't hook when the boom in fact did for that, at McConnell.

[LT4Life]

As a SELO and looking through everyone's FEF on the regular, I've seen Q-3's pretty often and you know what my honest opinion is...it doesn't really matter. If you Q3 something and can make it up in other ways (squadron jobs, OPR, past present at future performance, etc...) it all comes out in the wash. Q-3's happen. From what I've seen/heard, if it is for something that needs attention and deseves attention (ie the basics) then it is a bigger deal than if you forgot to tune in a NAVAID or whatever. I've seen CC push hard for guys that want UPT/AETC that have had a Q3 and not so hard for guys that didn't have one. Long story short, it's what the CC/squadron thinks of you. If you are a good guy and a decent stick you will go further than a bag of douche and a great stick any day.

Tell your buddy to fix his problem and press on. He's obviously going to deploy a lot and have a job in the squadron since he's AMC so it seems he has a lot of opportunity to show those that matter he's not a Q-3 guy, just a guy that had a bad day.

FWIW, EP/EB's always debrief the CC on what happened. Things like the guy was $HIT hot but jacked up the ILS and the guy did well enough to Q1 but needs to be monitored mean more while he's in the squadron than the overall grade.

[Guest xtndr50boom]

Bat?

?

[Guest Boom]

Though many of our booms would have caught it, I don't think you [the boom] can be hooked for "pilot" specific stuff. You have to know the clearance, but not all the rules associated. I have to know the "bat" should be out, but if you say it's out and it's actually in... a pilot and co didn't hook when the boom in fact did for that, at McConnell.

Before I PCS'd here they tried to hook a Boom for the Pilots grossly over speeding the flaps (no idea why they want to drop the flaps) since the Boom was an Instructor. Only problem was is he was in the Boom Pod, off head set moving up front. I got the same talking too that the IP I flew with did when he oversped the gear during my ASEV checkride (not the 270 one, the 320 one...don't ask about it, long story) however and not Q3'd.

Then at Manas we had a McConnell Sq/CC Q3 a crew because they took a bird on takeoff and the AC (actually was a Evaluator) decided to abort (above their hot brakes speed) and decided to taxi to parking. The Boom and AC saw the bird when they took it, the Co had his head down looking at something for a second. They Q3'd the AC for his decision to taxi to parking and not egressing the plane when off the runway, the Co for "crew coordination" for not saying something about not taxi to parking and not setting the parking brakes and egressing due to hot brakes, and Q3'd the Boom for not chalking the nose gear for hot brakes and crew coordination.

[Guest Boom]

Bat?

?

Nose gear ground downlock and release handle.

Locks the nose gear and if left in when trying to retract the gear will prevent the nose gear from being retracted (and must be left down for remainder of flight) and causes a bunch of pissed of maintenance guys to hate you (for good reason). It's in the Boom's preflight checklist to remove it, and after landing checklist to put it back in.

[Guest xtndr50boom]

Nose gear ground downlock and release handle.

Locks the nose gear and if left in when trying to retract the gear will prevent the nose gear from being retracted (and must be left down for remainder of flight) and causes a bunch of pissed of maintenance guys to hate you (for good reason). It's in the Boom's preflight checklist to remove it, and after landing checklist to put it back in.

Ahh, learning has taken place. Thanks

oversped the gear during my ASEV checkride (the 320 one)

took a bird on takeoff and the AC (Evaluator) decided to abort (above their hot brakes speed)

decided to taxi to parking.

Q3d the co for not setting the parking brakes and egressing due to hot brakes

Q3'd the Boom for not chalking the nose gear for hot brakes and crew coordination

Is it just me or is anyone else hearing Benny Hill music in the background? Seriously, WTF?

[Buddy Spike]

Things guys in my recent (in)experience have hooked for in the 135:

Running off the runway, hooked by acting sq/cc at deployed location: BIG deal

No Notice checkride; he (a copilot) didn't back up the AC by letting him know gusts were added to the winds called by tower as they were taking the active - both he and the AC hooked (EP in the jumpseat). Lack of SA on the AC... another story. The fact the Co heard the winds and didn't do anything pissed the EP off more, I think. Bad on him and he's bounced back and I don't think it will even disrupt his AC upgrade, since he was a young co at the time. As a copilot, I wouldn't be that worried about it. We get a lot of no notices in the 135 - pretty much you treat every ride with an EP as one anyway - we're graded on every ride like it's UPT (depending on the unit) with the new MPD/ first pilot/ PIQ/ dual qualed/ inhouse upgrade system, and since EPs can hook you at any time for anything... Boom hit it on the head, though I don't feel "threatened" by that possibility.

Third recent example was a hook for landing on the wrong runway - called out after the fact. Pretty big deal, I think.

What was the dude supposed to do with the winds? Isn't that kind of queepy?

[Guest awalkertx]

What was the dude supposed to do with the winds? Isn't that kind of queepy?

it goes into the takeoff calculations and effects vmcg/vmca if crosswind and vrot if headwind. you have to re-update the box to find out. you'd have to lose an outboard engine for it to really matter. seems to me like it would be worth only a downgrade, but i'm brand new to the jet and have only done two systems sims. i guess i could have issued my disclaimer at the beginning, cheers!

[Fozzy Bear]

I'm curious about other jets, but in the 135, I don't HAVE TO put the gusts into the box - I have to account for them. Putting them into the box is the safe bet, but it's rarely a 'steady' gust, so I just enter the steady state winds and on "clear for T/O", I tack on the gusts to all FLYING AIRSPEEDS. I had my annual check a few days after my buddy hooked on that no notice and my EP debriefed me that though I was right, go ahead and stick it in the box on a checkride.

[ViperStud]

Anyone know what the actual rules are for going to UPT with a Q3 on your record? Is in nothing bad in the FEF for the past two years or does it not matter if it's just one or what?

[C17Driver]

Anyone know what the actual rules are for going to UPT with a Q3 on your record? Is in nothing bad in the FEF for the past two years or does it not matter if it's just one or what?

Last time I looked into it, it's no more than 1 Q3 in the last 3 years (or 2 Q2's).

If your buddy is in AMC, it's not a big deal..as long as it doesn't become a habit; no trends. The joke at the of the squadrons I have been in is there are those that have (a Q3) and those that will.