Finance Problems

[Guest Cap-10]

I can't believe some of the statements I've been reading here.....every one should know everyone else's job.....Ops doesn't affect the entire AF....blah,blah, blah. (By the way, Ops is the tip of the spear, everything else IS support. Sometimes the truth hurts)

Without re-re-re-beating the dead horse, I'll add my 2 cents:

1) The part where Finance guys say "I can say many aircrew know the travel rules better than most finance people. Why, because they do it everyday. Those who travel maybe once a year, are probably in the dark". That is the biggest line of BS I've ever read. Here's the bottom line: if it has to do with money, whether it's PCS'ing, DLA, or tax-free from a combat zone, etc, then everyone working behing the finance counter should be the expert, forward and backward, inside and out, even if they've never PCS'd or been to a combat zone. Period dot!!!!! If they are not the expert, then the leadership needs to re-evaluate the training/upgrade of newbies to get them to a 'mission ready' status.

And what better way to teach the newbies than on the job training. Instead of closing for training from 1200-1630 on any day that ends in 'y', how about staying open, and when someone arrives at the counter with a question/voucher/pay issues, etc, the worker bee should have the SA to turn around, and tell the newbie to stop surfing the base online water cooler, get off their happy arse, and watch how the J-O-B is done. If there are no customers, then feel free to play stump the dummy with the upgradees.

2) This is for everyone that has ever dealt with a lower ranking airman/Sgt/Lt, that did not perform up to standards but, due to not wanting to be 'that guy', wanting to be a friend, or not wanting to cause a scene.....shame on you. If you let below average performace fly, then you are just to blame. If something is wrong, correct it on the spot. Getting lip in return? Find the First Shirt. This normally gets things corrected quickly. Next is the Flt/CC. (The chain of command.....I know.....it's wild and wacky).

Everytime you let an airman (O's and E's) get away with something, whether it's wearing sunglasses on your skull indoors (prohibited by an AFI), not wearing disco belts at night (normally a WG/CC policy letter), or doing a half ass job, you are in-directly saying that action is 'O.K.'

I think we as an AF would be better off if there were more people dropping the hammer on slack asses.

Cap-10

[Techsan]

Its not hard, a 2303 transaction with a start and end date, a code of 1 and a 1 or 2, then the country code you were in. Hit enter and your are done.

However, That can only be done with a correctly filled out form. I'm assuming you are using an 1881. I'm sure your travel voucher had the same location. If not, then I'm guessing you did the 1881 for transiting airspace. Different rules and maybe there wasn't enough on the form to show you were assigned duty to the airspace.

FWIW, an 1881 is for actual Hostile Fire.and should only be used when fired upon. The travel voucher is the source for IDP.

Our travel voucher didn't have our AOR landing location on it because we didn't stay the night there. Thats why we used an 1881. Either way, I'm not sure why it's taking so long. We even had to turn a second form in because they had lost the 1st one. Just a little annoying.

[The Kayla]

2) This is for everyone that has ever dealt with a lower ranking airman/Sgt/Lt, that did not perform up to standards but, due to not wanting to be 'that guy', wanting to be a friend, or not wanting to cause a scene.....shame on you. If you let below average performace fly, then you are just to blame. If something is wrong, correct it on the spot. Getting lip in return? Find the First Shirt. This normally gets things corrected quickly. Next is the Flt/CC. (The chain of command.....I know.....it's wild and wacky).

Everytime you let an airman (O's and E's) get away with something, whether it's wearing sunglasses on your skull indoors (prohibited by an AFI), not wearing disco belts at night (normally a WG/CC policy letter), or doing a half ass job, you are in-directly saying that action is 'O.K.'

I think we as an AF would be better off if there were more people dropping the hammer on slack asses.

Cap-10

I understand where you are coming from, and I agree with you, but it's different for a spouse. It's one thing if you or my husband go in and not get the help that you deserve, and ask to speak to the First.. but it's a whole new ball game when a spouse does it.

A) we get labeled as "that spouse" who went into XX-Building demanding help.. --Trust me boys, this happens, in fact, I know a chick who will tell spouses NOT to go finane (for example) because "well, you just don't want to be that spouse who goes around doing your husband's business..." Now, I'm OK with being "that spouse" espeically when the hubster is away, and I know that he can't do anything from where he's at.

B) think about it: Imagine this: Husband is deployed/TDY his pay gets jacked up. As in only $352.56 is deposited in the acocunt. You, like every other American out there, have bills that you need to pay. The hubster can't talk on the phone.. so what do you do? Go down to Finance, you try to keep your cool, but when you're being dicked around so much, you start to lose your cool. Now, what? especially if this is the first time that this has happened, you aren't going to know "hey, just ask to speak to the First". I sure as hell didn't.

I'm pretty calm when it comes to dealing with people (as long as it's not Pinnacle). Years in retail has taught me that, and even before retail, I'm just a calm person. But, I do freak out when bills can't be paid.. Yes, there's $$ in savings.. but still.. Pay is the LAST thing anyone should have to worry about.

[Whitman]

Fact: Support troops won't treat their jobs like pilots do.

Fact: The system is flawed.

You can either complain about our support troops or take an interest in them and show them that you actually care about their job (reference Bender's post). It's not that you are foreplaying them or trying to manipulate them, it's a simple matter of mutual respect. Everybody writes off airmen but you'd be surprised what they know and who they know. A personnel troop at my last squadron, Airman ##### was fresh out of the personnel building and had plenty of friends there. I was getting ready to PCS and needed and an amended RIP and orders by the end of the week. For all of you that are familiar with personnel, you realize this is the finance equivalent of getting 2 fighter squadrons to the fight without tankers. I talked to Airmen ##### and all it took was a couple phone calls, some email comm, and I had my RIP and non standard orders to follow in 3 days.

Bottom line: Nobody is better than the other, we're all in the same AF and we're all after the same mission to fly jets and kill bad guys. Treat the support troops like you'd want to be treated and you can't go wrong.

[Herk Driver]

Fact: Support troops won't treat their jobs like pilots do.

Fact: The system is flawed.

You can either complain about our support troops or take an interest in them and show them that you actually care about their job (reference Bender's post). It's not that you are foreplaying them or trying to manipulate them, it's a simple matter of mutual respect. Everybody writes off airmen but you'd be surprised what they know and who they know. A personnel troop at my last squadron, Airman ##### was fresh out of the personnel building and had plenty of friends there. I was getting ready to PCS and needed and an amended RIP and orders by the end of the week. For all of you that are familiar with personnel, you realize this is the finance equivalent of getting 2 fighter squadrons to the fight without tankers. I talked to Airmen ##### and all it took was a couple phone calls, some email comm, and I had my RIP and non standard orders to follow in 3 days.

Bottom line: Nobody is better than the other, we're all in the same AF and we're all after the same mission to fly jets and kill bad guys. Treat the support troops like you'd want to be treated and you can't go wrong.

BLUF: I havent' seen too many people walking into (name your support function) and demanding to be treated like a king. It usually is only after they don't feel like they are getting a fair shake (sts) that they go to the supervisor, etc.

I agree with the premise of your post. The problem is that your bottom line doesn't match what you presented above it. You basically told us how the "good 'ole boy network' hooked you up. You laid out the argument that since you had a relationship (sts) with Airmen Snuffy and he personally had friends in the MPF that he hooked you up. You use that point to justify that "nobody is better than the other" yet you just got preferential treatment because of relationships that you built and the relationships that he had.

While I have always been able to build these types of relationships and get things done (two way street) when the chips were down; it shouldnt' be based on who you know. What if I'm the new guy on the base? I wouldn't be able to pull those same strings. Mutual respect is one thing. It's a whole different ballgame when we talk you have to have a friend in each organization to get sh!t done. The 'good 'ole boy network' should not exist in a professional organization. Also, the idea that I should treat every support troop like I want to be treated is a two-way street.

[TacAirCoug]

I can say many aircrew know the travel rules better than most finance people. Why, because they do it everyday.

Actually it's because at one time or another most of us have had our pay, travel voucher, etc. screwed up. When finance was either unwilling or unable to help, aircrew HAD to learn the rules in order to get things fixed. In other words, we know the travel rules better because the people who should know...don't.

[HossHarris]

Bottom line: Nobody is better than the other, we're all in the same AF and we're all after the same mission to fly jets and kill bad guys.

I disagree ... There are people better than you. There are people better than me. There is stratification. Some people can't, in fact, cut it. We are not all warriors. This is not a child's tee-ball game where they don't keep score and everyone gets a trophy at the end.

Edited May 16, 2008 by HossHarris

[Whitman]

BLUF: I havent' seen too many people walking into (name your support function) and demanding to be treated like a king. It usually is only after they don't feel like they are getting a fair shake (sts) that they go to the supervisor, etc.

I agree with the premise of your post. The problem is that your bottom line doesn't match what you presented above it. You basically told us how the "good 'ole boy network' hooked you up. You laid out the argument that since you had a relationship (sts) with Airmen Snuffy and he personally had friends in the MPF that he hooked you up. You use that point to justify that "nobody is better than the other" yet you just got preferential treatment because of relationships that you built and the relationships that he had.

While I have always been able to build these types of relationships and get things done (two way street) when the chips were down; it shouldnt' be based on who you know. What if I'm the new guy on the base? I wouldn't be able to pull those same strings. Mutual respect is one thing. It's a whole different ballgame when we talk you have to have a friend in each organization to get sh!t done. The 'good 'ole boy network' should not exist in a professional organization. Also, the idea that I should treat every support troop like I want to be treated is a two-way street.

While it may sound like a "good 'ole boy network" thing, said Airman's assistance was a byproduct of how he was treated everyday by me. I didn't care that he wasn't writing my OPR or deciding who goes to Nellis for TDY, just treated him like I would want to be treated if I were in a job and was the only Airman in a squadron filled with O's.

If I were knew on base, I'd hope that the dudes in my squadron would help me out.

The "nobody is better than the other" comment is based on the attitude that "At the end of the day, I'm the one pulling the trigger so do your job shoe clerk" mentality. I've seen it personally and it's sickening. They couldn't do it without us, and we sure as hell couldn't do it without them. Period dot.

As for the rest of your post, reference Fact #2.

[Danny Noonin]

While it may sound like a "good 'ole boy network" thing, said Airman's assistance was a byproduct of how he was treated everyday by me. I didn't care that he wasn't writing my OPR or deciding who goes to Nellis for TDY, just treated him like I would want to be treated if I were in a job and was the only Airman in a squadron filled with O's.

Yeah, but the fact is that you knew someone personally who knew someone in finance who could get the job done for you...almost like it was a favor. Good on you for building that relationship that led to that favor, but not everyone knows someone personally in finance or with connections in finance...that's not how it should have to be in order to work.

I'm all for treating people well and I feel like I do that better than most (except maybe on this forum). The absolute wrong thing to do is to walk into finance or the MPF or anywhere else and bow up and expect to be bowed down to. Treat people respectfully to start and ask nicely and you are far more likely to get someone on the other end that is willing to help you. No one here is advocating being an asshole to support folks. They are saying the exact opposite. Everyone is saying that they try and try and all they get is the runaround. In the end, they reach frustration level delta because of non-responsive attitudes and eventually lose it.

I say again, I used to work in finance. I know how it works over there. I know what it's like to be on that end. I know what happens when someone walks in all pissed off at A1C Snuffy who was not personally at fault for their predicament (doesn't work out well). I know what happens when someone walks in and talks nicely/respectfully, too. Unfortunately, that isn't always the ticket. Nor is it even usually the ticket. I shouldn't have to feel like I'm bothering them over there when I have a problem or ask a question. Sometimes that's exactly how I feel.

That's the point of this whole thread.

Edited May 16, 2008 by T-Bone

[Guest Cap-10]

Whitman,

All your post proved was that you can get stuff done, IF you know the right people, and thats not the way it should be.

If those 'special' order are able to be produced in 3 days (like your connections made happen) then they should be done like that every time, even if you are Amn Snuffy who has been locked in a comm closet at a remote location for 1 yr and doesn't know anyone behind the scenes.

Cap-10

[Skitzo]

I don't know, I haven't had many problems with finance, compared to other people. But I do know this, when I hand some cash and checks over to the teller at my local bank, I have full faith and confidence that my deposit will go through as fragged. And if it doesn't or there is some problem, they usually can tell me right then and there, you forgot to sign here or there will be a hold etc. I don't sit there and wonder if they screwed it up, and if they deposited too little or too much.

But when it comes time to PCS or go TDY I have an idea of how much I should be getting via published DLA rates, estimates on a partial DITY calculator, knowledge of per diem rates etc. I file my paperwork and go back in and ask for an explanation of everything I was paid for as soon as I am paid for it. I have caught $500 mistakes a couple of times. Basically, I have heard too many horror stories and seen too much empirical evidence in my own affairs to trust that I will be paid properly.

Now I don't know if this is because that people don't care, or if the system is too complicated, the A1C is filing the paperwork but the SSgt is the one that is really proficient at said task. But I know this, if it were any other institution I would take my business elsewhere. Hell, at this point I'd rather pay 25-50 a month for a pseudo CPA to work on my behalf to make sure I get paid properly. The problem is in the military you are stuck with what you have. I can't fire finance, I can only go in there and hope for the best and spend hours out of my work-week making sure they have done their job properly. Good bad or indifferent, it is what it is and I will continue to be leary of finance at best.

If aircrew screw up it's people's lives and potentially millions of dollars. Maybe if finance screws up then they all get docked pay, you paid me too much through no fault of my own, so all of the staff gets to pitch in and pay because of your mistake. I don't know how you create an incentive to do it better.

[Vertigo]

Here's my comment on finance:

In my home office I have a framed LES from during my assignment to Australia- one month's total pay of $3.19; that about sums up my opinion of Finance.

Edited May 17, 2008 by Vertigo

[Herk Driver]

While it may sound like a "good 'ole boy network" thing, said Airman's assistance was a byproduct of how he was treated everyday by me. I didn't care that he wasn't writing my OPR or deciding who goes to Nellis for TDY, just treated him like I would want to be treated if I were in a job and was the only Airman in a squadron filled with O's.

If I were knew on base, I'd hope that the dudes in my squadron would help me out.

The "nobody is better than the other" comment is based on the attitude that "At the end of the day, I'm the one pulling the trigger so do your job shoe clerk" mentality. I've seen it personally and it's sickening. They couldn't do it without us, and we sure as hell couldn't do it without them. Period dot.

As for the rest of your post, reference Fact #2.

As for all of your post, I'd ask that you re-read my post. Specifially focus on the mutual respect thing being a two way street.

[brabus]

I shouldn't have to feel like I'm bothering them over there when I have a problem or ask a question.

I think that's what pisses me off the most. The majority of the time I go in there, whether to just file a voucher or to ask questions/fix a problem, the staff (ranging from A1C up to SSgt) act annoyed at best that I'm there. A few times it was obvious I rudely interrupted their watching-videos-session or their tetris. The fact they don't want to lift a finger to do their own damn job is despicable and the reason I don't trust or like any of those asshats over there.

[Guest Boom]

I think that's what pisses me off the most. The majority of the time I go in there, whether to just file a voucher or to ask questions/fix a problem, the staff (ranging from A1C up to SSgt) act annoyed at best that I'm there. A few times it was obvious I rudely interrupted their watching-videos-session or their tetris. The fact they don't want to lift a finger to do their own damn job is despicable and the reason I don't trust or like any of those asshats over there.

I'm going to play devil's advocate since I was a support troop for a number of years and now I'm a flyer (and trust me, I've been on both sides of the fence). There are a lot of good people in the support careerfields, there really are. However they are increasingly harder to find and it's sad. The personnel that work in customer service in the Air Force is dramatically downsizing and so is the the customer service attitude towards people. But when I was a Personnel guy I couldn't tell you the amount of people who would:

- Have their records ed up for years then instantaneously want them fixed a few days prior before their PRF is written for their Maj/Lt Col board.

- Change offices without telling me then get offended when I told them they need to write OPR/EPR's due to how long they supervised someone in their last job. Then want me to cheat/lie the system to change their supervision dates so they got out of writing a report.

- Throw a hissy fit when I told them they need to go pee test.

- Try every excuse in the book to get out of their PT test, then try to fudge the numbers to get passing.

- Get pissed off that their PCS medal was denied by someone, then act like had a say in it.

- Get pissy when I'd asked them the status of the OPR/EPR/Decoration they were working on for the past 2+ months. Then get REALLY pissy when their name was highlighted in a negative manner during the Commander's staff meeting.

The list can go on and on. If you're getting the runaround by A1C Joenuts, see their boss. Shit most of you are Officers on this board, go talk to the FSO directly yourself. I can almost promise you'll get your finance/MPF issue resolved.

[brabus]

All true words boom. Hell, my neighbor is a Comm guy and he's a really great guy who I have no doubt gets the job done right. But as you said, the number of "good" support staff seems to be dwindling. My 2 yrs in is in no way an accurate overall picture of the support fields, but at least from my small point of view, they are sub-standard at their jobs. I have worked with one NCO in finance who seems to know his shit, but he's the only one apparently. So yes, there are good people out there, it's just too bad they're in the minority.

[Vertigo]

All true words boom. Hell, my neighbor is a Comm guy and he's a really great guy who I have no doubt gets the job done right. But as you said, the number of "good" support staff seems to be dwindling. My 2 yrs in is in no way an accurate overall picture of the support fields, but at least from my small point of view, they are sub-standard at their jobs. I have worked with one NCO in finance who seems to know his shit, but he's the only one apparently. So yes, there are good people out there, it's just too bad they're in the minority.

And the bad thing about that guy is... once everyone knows he is the guy that gets things done everyone starts coming only to him; making it easier on his lazy co-workers and burning this guy out in the process. He therefore gets out of the Air Force and goes civilian corporate where he gets paid commensurate with his abilities and work ethic (whereas in the AF the douche sitting on his ass honing his solitaire and net surfing skills is making the same pay). Thus leaving only the lazy co-workers to handle things (sts) until some sharp airman comes in and repeats the above process.

It is up to the OICs to weed out these non-performers. If a person isn't performing in a star fashion then they should not be getting a star EPR. Yes a 2 EPR is hard to write... so what? Laziness breeds laziness.

[Guest Boom]

You're right, it is up to the supervisors, SNCO's, Officers in charge of the people not giving you the customer service you need or helping you out. And the only way for them to know they have a problem in their section is for you to run it up to them informing them instead of constantly being given the run around and blowing you off.

I do also factor in the fact that most of the people here are students at a AETC which is notorious for not helping you out (since you're a student and not permanent party). No excuse, still run it up yours and their chain if you aren't getting results.

[pawnman]

You're right, it is up to the supervisors, SNCO's, Officers in charge of the people not giving you the customer service you need or helping you out. And the only way for them to know they have a problem in their section is for you to run it up to them informing them instead of constantly being given the run around and blowing you off.

I do also factor in the fact that most of the people here are students at a AETC which is notorious for not helping you out (since you're a student and not permanent party). No excuse, still run it up yours and their chain if you aren't getting results.

I have noticed that the quality of service has improved tremendously since transitioning to ACC.

[Guest SquareGear]

on another side...anyone know what happens if DTS made a payment to a GTC that you didn't use on your XC? Even though you told it not to...? =)

[sky_king]

Just call the credit card company and they'll send you a check for the balance.

[Guest Boom]

on another side...anyone know what happens if DTS made a payment to a GTC that you didn't use on your XC? Even though you told it not to...? =)

Bank of America will either send you a check or you'll just have a credit balance on your card.

[Guest SquareGear]

Bank of America will either send you a check or you'll just have a credit balance on your card.

Awesome! Thanks!

[Herk Driver]

Awesome! Thanks!

Don't pull it out (sts) of an ATM unless you are willing to pay the ATM Advance fee.

[MilitaryToFinance]

Apparently nobody at our Finance office is aware that officers are supposed to get a one time clothing allowance when we commission. I spent over an hour sitting at a desk while 4 or 5 different people tried to figure out how I get my $400. The final conclusion was that the regs do say I'm entitled to the allowance(thanks I knew that, that's why I came) but that nobody knows how to actually get it to me. All they had was a form that was last updated in 1991 that they didn't know how to fill out. Anybody commissioned recently enough that could help me out on this one? I've talked to 2 people who said they got it automatically when at ASBC(which I haven't been to yet) and another LT who's been here over a year now and he just gave up because he could never get finance to figure it out.