Finance Problems

[Finance_Guy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but finance is an administrative office, and not an investigative office, right? You have a list of rules and regulations, and if someone walks in and is correctly and legally (with corroborating evidence) owed money, then you must pay them, right?

If I'm allowed to claim up to X dollars for Y thing without receipts, and it's outlined in the regulations, then I don't have to substantiate the claim at all, do I? And as a servicemember, what is our recourse for an instance such as previously mentioned where we're being overpaid and have proof of it, and finance insists we aren't and refuses to make the change (and then wrecks our monthly pay down the road to correct the mistake). After all, it seems incredibly shady for them to recklessly disobey regulations and then screw with my disbursement months later.

I'm only asking these things because there seems to be no check on finance, and if my finance office sees fit to not correct a situation that I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to be in error, I'd like to be able to protect myself.

You are correct on the 2nd question in para #1--key words in your sentence is "corroborating evidence.

Now for para 2, you are only allowed to claim X dollars for Y thing if you in fact spent the X dollars. There have been many cases where travelers get foolhardy and just because you can be paid for a taxi less than $75 without a receipt does not mean you can claim a taxi everyday for $74.99--seen it happen.

Now here's where Finance is more than just an admin office (RE: your question #1 in para 1). If such claim doesn't appear reasonable or the facts are questionable, then they can "investigate" or ask further questions. In the taxi case, that was a real scenario and what do you know, the traveler withdrew those taxi claims after Finance questioned them. It is a bit odd you would have the exact same taxi cost every single day of your TDY. So I'd have to say finance is a little bit of both. They see many claims each day and should be sharp enough to catch those that do not appear legit. That's what I meant by a check in the system. If no one questions the BS, then who knows. Not to say most of you would do this, but I've personally witnessed a good number that have. And some have been court-martialed for it. Had another that provided rent receipts on receipts that appears to be ones you can buy at any office supply store--note that each one is numbered in the booklet. Well Dum-Dum was filling out the originals and making copies. Well he messed up and used the same numbered receipt for two different months rent. Now if finance was not looking closely, they may not have caught the fraud the member was committing. I could go on and on, but won't, I hope maybe you get my point now. Keep in mind all these vouchers were supposedly signed by the member's supervisor. All I have to say is there are a few dishonest military members amongst us.

For overpayments you know are wrong and finance insists you are not overpaid...elevate the issue. If you know you are right, then don't settle for a wrong answer. If your local finance will not handle it, then get the Wing IG involved--just make sure you are correct. And by all means save back those extra dollars so when the pay adjustments are processed, you'll have the cash to off-set the lower paychecks. Finance does have checks--like the AF Audit Agency, IG, SAVs and UCIs. But those checks do not always get down to the everyday transactional business of Airman Snuffy on the front counter.

[Bergman]

All I have to say is there are a few dishonest military members amongst us.

That is the problem! There are A FEW dishonest military members. 99% of the guys are just trying to get what is owed to them, but in an effort to catch the 1%, everyone must suffer.

(i.e. the standard USAF "one person shits the bed and we all have to wear diapers" response.)

[Finance_Guy]

(i.e. the standard USAF "one person shits the bed and we all have to wear diapers" response.)

Or wear reflector belts.

[SocialD]

THIS is why we rage against the Finance career field. If there was a problem with the jet and I didnt tell anyone when I got back, Id lose my job (think PHIK!)

Chuck

I really don't get it.....we do our jobs correctly because that is what is EXPECTED of us and what we expect of ourselves. If they do their job correctly, they get a medal.

Not finance....just venting

So I am told I need to update my information in Deers (after a PCS), no problem, I'll get an appointment. Call them up, sure the first available spot is in 6 weeks! But sir we have walk in hours, sweet, I'll do that. Go in for a walk in..sign says 1.5 hour wait. Sure let me just cancel my flight/sim/academics for that wait. Try again the next day, only a 2 hour wait. Next day, closed for training. The following day was only an hour wait....what a deal. Been here almost two months and still haven't been able to update my info. Tried to do it online but apparently I need to do the one thing that can't be updated online....go figure.

Edited February 28, 2009 by SocialD

[Finance_Guy]

AFFSC Email to Airmen:

Information Technology System Anomaly Reduces Productivity at AF Financial Services Center - 11 May 2009

On 1 May 2009, the Air Force Financial Services Center (AFFSC) began experiencing significant downtime with the Enterprise Information Management (EIM) System. The EIM system transfers travel and military pay documents from local Financial Services Offices (FSO) to the AFFSC for processing and payment. The system is currently supporting limited operations at the AFFSC. Financial Services Offices are unable to transmit documents through EIM. To lessen the impact to Airmen, contingency plans have been

implemented to ensure critical transactions are processed. Paying our Airmen is our #1 Priority.

Financial Services Offices have been provided a list of priority transactions to transmit through the contingency process. Airmen may experience delays in travel payments and some military pay entitlements.

Financial Managers at your local FSO and the AFFSC are poised and ready to expedite services for critical payment. Travelers should closely monitor their government travel card accounts and request additional attention if they are approaching 45+ days delinquency.

Team members from SAF/XC, SAF/IM, SAF/FM, Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA), Global Combat Support System (GCSS) - Air Force, International Business Machine (IBM), and the AFFSC have been working extensively to stabilize the system. While they are making headway the root cause of the

anomaly is not yet determined. Currently there is no estimated get well date.

We appreciate your patience while this critical capability is restored.

[Gravedigger]

AFFSC Email to Airmen:

Information Technology System Anomaly Reduces Productivity at AF Financial Services Center - 11 May 2009

On 1 May 2009, the Air Force Financial Services Center (AFFSC) began experiencing significant downtime with the Enterprise Information Management (EIM) System...

...We appreciate your patience while this critical capability is restored.

I really give you credit Finance Guy; just reading that message made me a bit nauseated. Cheers for doing a thankless job and not setting your building on fire.

[JarheadBoom]

AFFSC Email to Airmen:

Information Technology System Anomaly Reduces Productivity at AF Financial Services Center - 11 May 2009

...Currently there is no estimated get well date.

We appreciate your patience while this critical capability is restored.

I've got 5 vouchers (among them, 2 re-submittals and an FMS mission), sitting somewhere in the backlog that's been created by the system crash. Good thing I use my personal card, and don't have a BOA/Citi/whoever-has-the-GTC-contract-now card to go delinquent on................ yeah, that's great.

In the email our DO sent out last week (not this one), one of the remarks in the mass of Fwd: info under his comments was from a Col. who wrote that he had just briefed the CSAF and SecAF about the issue. At least the HMFIC's are aware of the problem.

Meanwhile, we await our monies...

[Herk Driver]

Good thing I use my personal card, and don't have a BOA/Citi/whoever-has-the-GTC-contract-now card to go delinquent on...

Right, because you couldn't pay off the gov't credit card with your own money like you can your personal card.

Don't get me wrong, this sucks. I'm in the middle ofa PCS, have TLA payments, travel payments, TDY payments and a multitude of other money stuck in the system somewhere, but how does using your personal card differ from using your GOVCC in this instance? Oh, wait, big brother isn't breathing down my neck to pay my personal card. BFD.

On another note, this was the piece of an email that I don't think they meant to share with the masses:

"I would echo Chief xxxxx's message to the Superintendants to try and keep the message to your leadership and customers positive, and project an optimistic attitude..."

Right, heaven forbid we call a spade a spade and let people deal with it. Instead, let's put a bright and shiny spin on things and bury our heads in the sand since it isn't our money anyway. In the end it's the SM that has to suck it up and press on.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Herk Driver

[AEWingsMN]

My friends that just EAD'd both said they heard about this, and both got their money right away... which we were told to expect a month or two for them to figure things out in the first place if Finance was working correctly. So, odd that things are supposed to be worse than before, but appear to be working better than before.

[Champ Kind]

how does using your personal card differ from using your GOVCC in this instance?

1. I can see in real-time what charges are going on my personal card via the website.

2. I don't have a minimum monthly payment on my personal credit card.

3. Even if I did have a minimum monthly payment, I wouldn't have to pay the FULL amount due all at once like I have to with the GTC.

4. The aforementioned nasty-grams associated with the GTC.

Sounds like some pretty good reasons to me. And I didn't even mention reward points....

[Herk Driver]

1. I can see in real-time what charges are going on my personal card via the website.

2. I don't have a minimum monthly payment on my personal credit card.

3. Even if I did have a minimum monthly payment, I wouldn't have to pay the FULL amount due all at once like I have to with the GTC.

4. The aforementioned nasty-grams associated with the GTC.

Sounds like some pretty good reasons to me. And I didn't even mention reward points....

The post was in relation to what is different just because AFFMS can't get their shit together.

I'm not going to defend the GOVCC, but at least post items that make a difference when we're talking about specifics to AFFMS being tango-uniform.

#1 is a red-herring as that is possible with either card. Personally, I pay off all my credit cards each month so #2, 3, and 4 don't matter to me either.

Everything doesn't go through AFFMS. DTS is still functioning which is the way most people file vouchers these days anyway. Does this system being down effect DTS payments? I don't think it does, but I've been wrong before.

BL: With AFFMS being so out of whack why does using a personal CC versus GOVCC make a difference except that some people can string out payments versus paying it off each month? (except to give people that want to bitch a reason to bitch)

Edited May 20, 2009 by Herk Driver

[nsplayr]

I like the GTC for the simple fact that I can tell them to suck it until I get paid my voucher. Wanna suspend charging privileges, fine by me. I hand that letter to my boss, and suddenly my voucher gets paid faster because you're not supposed to send people on TDYs w/o a GTC. If was my own card I'd be getting charged interest carrying a balance. Latest episode has stretched since late Feb...until the AF pays me I'm not paying the GTC and that's no sweat off my back.

Thinking about walking up to the finance desk and playing that family guy clip where Stewie beats Brian almost to death b/c he refuses to repay $50 bucks he borrowed... to anyone who can post that video

[StoleIt]

Thinking about walking up to the finance desk and playing that family guy clip where Stewie beats Brian almost to death b/c he refuses to repay $50 bucks he borrowed... to anyone who can post that video

Where's My Money Pt 1

Where's My Money Pt 2

[nsplayr]

Where's My Money Pt 1

Where's My Money Pt 2

Ask, and you shall receive. I'm seriously gonna tape the first one and take it to finance...seriously...

[JarheadBoom]

Right, because you couldn't pay off the gov't credit card with your own money like you can your personal card.

Don't get me wrong, this sucks. I'm in the middle ofa PCS, have TLA payments, travel payments, TDY payments and a multitude of other money stuck in the system somewhere, but how does using your personal card differ from using your GOVCC in this instance? Oh, wait, big brother isn't breathing down my neck to pay my personal card. BFD.

I don't have a GTC because I got fucked-over by the Corps on a multi-thousand-dollar travel voucher 10 years ago, and now I'm perma-banned from the program... even though I did eventually pay it off. I don't have a choice in the matter. Well, I suppose I could get my Chief and the DO to sign a letter for an advance before every TDY... but it was a tremendous pain in the ass the one time I did it. Not worth the hassle.

I'm a mid-grade E with a mortgage, two car payments, a new baby, and I'm still getting out from under the financial carnage of almost 3 years of being unemployed/underemployed. I don't have a couple grand just sitting around, waiting for the next time the AF decides to put all it's financial eggs in one single-point-of-failure basket... then threaten me with a Letter of Counseling/Reprimand/Embarrasment because I'm on "the list". I'm happy to be using my personal card.

My bitch (since you called it that) is that Big Blue caused this mess by having everything Finance go to one single place with, apparently, no backup plan in place.

[Herk Driver]

My bitch (since you called it that) is that Big Blue caused this mess by having everything Finance go to one single place with, apparently, no backup plan in place.

I completely agree and that is probably worth discussing.

My other question, not directed at you necessarily, does this effect DTS vouchers? I don't think that DTS actions flow through AFFMS. Do they? Finance guy??

[pawnman]

1. I can see in real-time what charges are going on my personal card via the website.

2. I don't have a minimum monthly payment on my personal credit card.

3. Even if I did have a minimum monthly payment, I wouldn't have to pay the FULL amount due all at once like I have to with the GTC.

4. The aforementioned nasty-grams associated with the GTC.

Sounds like some pretty good reasons to me. And I didn't even mention reward points....

How about being able to pay minimum monthly payments until you get paid on your personal credit card, thus protecting your credit rating. Others have said they just don't pay the GTC until they get paid...a valid technique, but it will ding your credit score when BOA reports you late on your payments.

[Champ Kind]

but it will ding your credit score when BOA reports you late on your payments.

Exactly.

[Herk Driver]

How about being able to pay minimum monthly payments until you get paid on your personal credit card, thus protecting your credit rating. Others have said they just don't pay the GTC until they get paid...a valid technique, but it will ding your credit score when BOA reports you late on your payments.

That's about the only valid point that anyone has made so far. BoA/Citi don't report you as late to credit agencies until 120 days for the GTC program, IIRC.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Herk Driver

[Finance_Guy]

My other question, not directed at you necessarily, does this effect DTS vouchers? I don't think that DTS actions flow through AFFMS. Do they? Finance guy??

HD, the AFFSC doesn't have their hands in DTS except their own travel. Funny, now all of a sudden DTS don't look all that bad. A few years ago DTS got all the grief. DTS has had it's share of problems in the past with downtime, but has been pretty good lately.

Their back up solution is in affect and does work. That solution was used before EIM was fully operational. The base finance scans the documents into PDF/Word format, then drops them out to a shared folder on Ellsworth's server. In theory, if you dropped off a voucher today, it could be sitting on a network drive at the AFFSC the same day for them to work. They call it remote access drive (RAD) that uses Citrix connectivity(??).

I think their big mistake was putting EIM under GCSS (AF Portal). There should be no reason for 1 or 2 month delays as someone mentioned. The delays should only be in day increments.

That's about the only valid point that anyone has made so far. BoA/Citi don't report you as late to credit agencies until 120 days for the GTC program, IIRC.

It's actually at the 210 day point. After the 120 day point they probably have hit against your paycheck for invol collection (salary offset). If they can collect from your pay by day 210 nothing is sent out negatively on your credit. Below is the real deal info if you want it. So if you can't take care of an outstanding balance in 210 days you deserve a bad mark on your credit history.

K. Reporting to Credit Bureaus

IBA accounts are not reported to Credit Bureaus unless they are charged-off for nonpayment.

IBAs delinquent for $165 for 120 days or less or for 210 consecutive days in any dollar amount will be charged-off and reported to Credit Bureaus if not collected through salary offset. Charged-off accounts will not be re-opened, and the owner of a charged-off account can/will not be issued a new travel card.

- If past due > $165 for > 120 days

- Salary Offset and DoD Due Process Notice

- $80 fee ($25 to DFAS)

- If past due < $165 for > 120 days

- Charged-off

- Reported to Credit Bureau

F. Delinquent Accounts

IAW DoD instructions, if a cardholder does not pay their IBA bill in full within 61 days of the due date, the contractor bank will automatically suspend the card and the card cannot be used until the delinquent balance is paid. When the account is 75 days past due, a $29 late fee will be applied to the card, and an additional $29 fee applied each cycle thereafter until the delinquent balance is paid. Late fees are the responsibility of the individual unless the government is at fault for the delayed payment. In those cases, late fees may be claimed as reimbursable expenses. Per DoD, it is the cardholder’s responsibility to verify the status of receipt of their travel entitlement and to ensure their IBA is paid on time. Actions on past due IBAs will be taken as follows:

- 30 days - No action taken.

- 61 days - IBA Suspended.

- 75 days - Late Fees Incurred ($29 initially and each billing cycle as long as delinquent).

- 90 days - Due Process Notice from contractor bank.

- 121 days - Credit revoked (charge card is cancelled) and account sent to Salary Offset (charged to the account is an $80 processing fee consisting of $55 bank

fee/$25 DFAS fee).

- 210 days - IBA Charged-off (per public law) if not in salary offset.

The cardholder will be included in the delinquency statistics until his/her account is paid in full, charged-off, or placed in Salary Offset and three consecutive payments have been applied to the account.

[Herk Driver]

Thanks, Finance Guy. I didn't think that they were involved in DTS vouchers, which should be most of everyone's travel. Problems with DTS typically are due to someone at the unit not doing their job ( or additional duty in many cases).

I also noted that any late fees that are charged when the gov't is at fault are reimbursed as well. Thanks for the info.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Herk Driver

[SPiF]

I know I got the message saying that they were having trouble with the finance system after I filed my latest travel voucher (schoolhouse class, so it wasn't in DTS). I filed it on 6 May, and got my message saying that it'd been processed on May 18th, within the 10 business day window I was told by finance. So there may be hope out there after all.

Then again, most of the people in the class with me had trouble with finance, so YMMV.

[StoleIt]

Going on three weeks for a travel voucher here.

Went in to bitch yesterday and the entire system is down. All they can do I see that it go to its destination.

And hooray for me I am turning in another tomorrow. Wohoo!

[Jughead]

So if you can't take care of an outstanding balance in 210 days you deserve a bad mark on your credit history.

No argument on the process, how it works, etc.--good info, I hadn't seen that before.

On the "deserve," though, I disagree. We're not talking about (I don't believe the previous posters were talking about) someone just blowing off a credit card bill.

The issue is that I'm *required* to use my GTC for certain expenses when TDY. The expenses for which GTC use is mandated are reimbursible. So, I am *ordered* to travel, *ordered* to use my GTC for certain expenses incurred thereby, and *ordered* to file my claim within X duty days (5?) of my return. So far, no problem. However, sometimes the system breaks down--for whatever reason, my claim doesn't get paid in a timely fashion. The fact that this debt that I am *ordered* to incur on official gov't business can negatively impact my *personal* credit rating is a huge foul. I could be doing everything within my power to get a legitimate claim paid, but if it doesn't happen (for whatever reason), I am forced to choose between paying a government debt with personal funds or taking a ding on my credit rating.

Since they changed the GTC to include credit reporting (ca 1999, if memory serves?), I've toyed with the idea off and on of refusing to sign the card agreement on exactly that basis. I think that would ultimately be a winnable fight, but doing so would burn a lot of bridges (and I haven't been anywhere where I could deal w/ the headache)....

[Finance_Guy]

No argument on the process, how it works, etc.--good info, I hadn't seen that before.

On the "deserve," though, I disagree. We're not talking about (I don't believe the previous posters were talking about) someone just blowing off a credit card bill.

Come on now. If a traveler is having trouble getting paid you don't think 210 days is enough time to resolve it. Many go to IG and Wing CCs after 30 days. Once it hits that level the claim is usually put at the top of the stack.

Even if they can't pay the claim right away, there are provisions where an advance could be paid by the local FSO and send the $$ directly to the card. That process is only used in extreme circumstances.

So yes, I think "deserve" fits. You can disagree and I'm sure the posters providing input have never let their balance reach the 210 days. So for those that may go over 210 days, they must be blowing off the bill--So they deserve what they get.

I'm try to clear up all the rumors and hype about the GTC reaking havoc on travelers credit history. It's that traveler's own fault (among others) if they let it go that far, not the government.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Finance_Guy