Finance Problems

[MooseAg03]

So it's time to PCS again, which means it's time to argue with finance.  I went to talk to them about my BAH today and did not get the answer I was hoping for.  We are PCSing from a location with terrible BAH rates to a more expensive location with much higher BAH rates.  According to the JTR, Chapter 10, Part E, B. Location Rate, #5, subsection g it states that BAH can be determined by dependent location if you are doing PME or training less than 1 year in length.  I am taking my family to the new duty station so the kids can start school before I begin my TDY en-route training.  Finance guy insists that BAH cannot change until I show up at the new duty station and fill out my travel voucher.  JTR says different, does anyone have any experience with getting this approved?  We are talking like a $900 difference per month, and I'm sick of bending over and letting the AF screw me because they don't follow the JTR.

Here is the excerpt from the JTR:

 "B. Location Rate. Ordinarily a housing allowance is paid based on the member’s PDS, or the home port for a

member assigned to a ship or afloat unit. However, the Service may determine that a member’s assignment to a

PDS or the circumstances of that assignment requires the dependent to reside separately. The Secretary  concerned

or the Secretarial Process, at Service discretion, may authorize/approve a housing allowance based on the

dependent’s location or old PDS.

 1-4. Blah blah blah

  5. Examples of Location Rate Changes Routinely Authorized/Approved: The member is:

     a - f.  Blah blah blah

     g.  Assigned to a Professional Military Education (PME) or training course that is scheduled for a duration of one year or less."

Edited August 11, 2017 by MooseAg03
added JTR references

[Swizzle]

28 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

So it's time to PCS again, which means it's time to argue with finance.  I went to talk to them about my BAH today and did not get the answer I was hoping for.  We are PCSing from a location with terrible BAH rates to a more expensive location with much higher BAH rates.  According to the JTR, Chapter 10, Part E, B. Location Rate, #5, subsection g it states that BAH can be determined by dependent location if you are doing PME or training less than 1 year in length.  I am taking my family to the new duty station so the kids can start school before I begin my TDY en-route training.  Finance guy insists that BAH cannot change until I show up at the new duty station and fill out my travel voucher.  JTR says different, does anyone have any experience with getting this approved?  We are talking like a $900 difference per month, and I'm sick of bending over and letting the AF screw me because they don't follow the JTR.

Here is the excerpt from the JTR:

 "B. Location Rate. Ordinarily a housing allowance is paid based on the member’s PDS, or the home port for a

member assigned to a ship or afloat unit. However, the Service may determine that a member’s assignment to a

PDS or the circumstances of that assignment requires the dependent to reside separately. The Secretary  concerned

or the Secretarial Process, at Service discretion, may authorize/approve a housing allowance based on the

dependent’s location or old PDS.

 1-4. Blah blah blah

  5. Examples of Location Rate Changes Routinely Authorized/Approved: The member is:

     a - f.  Blah blah blah

     g.  Assigned to a Professional Military Education (PME) or training course that is scheduled for a duration of one year or less."

Are your dependents on your orders? If yes, then is concurrent or non-concurrent travel authorized? Concurrent could make you eligible for transient BAH. Or are you in the grey, I forget how many days are grey, perhaps 30?

[MooseAg03]

Are your dependents on your orders? If yes, then is concurrent or non-concurrent travel authorized? Concurrent could make you eligible for transient BAH. Or are you in the grey, I forget how many days are grey, perhaps 30?

Dependents are all listed on the orders, nothing is selected in box 10 for type of tour (accompanied, unaccompanied, etc) or in box 13 about dependent travel.

[MooseAg03]

Dammit, I used the wrong reference.  It's Chapter 10, Part E, Section 7.  Advance or Delayed dependent travel.  This tells me that I can move my family there ahead of me so my kids can start school, and since I am doing training they should change my BAH to the location of my dependents.

 10412 DEPENDENT TRAVEL - ADVANCE AND DELAYED

A. General. When a PCS order has been issued, the member’s family may perform PCS travel at a different time

than the member.

1. Example of Advance Travel. A member stationed in England receives a PCS authorization/order in July for

reassignment to Norfolk with a November reporting date. The member’s family returns in August to get settled

before school starts in September.

2. Example of Delayed Travel. A member stationed in Chicago receives a PCS authorization/order in January

to report to Japan in April. The member’s family remains in Chicago until the school year ends in June.

B. Housing Allowance Based on Dependents’ Location or Old PDS. Unless otherwise authorized/approved, a

member’s housing allowance is based on the PDS. A member may be authorized a housing allowance based on the

location at which the dependents maintain a permanent residence, or the old PDS, if authorized/approved through the

Secretarial Process. Examples of separation situations that are routinely authorized/approved at a lower level than

the Service Secretary include:

1. The member is assigned to a PDS in an area in which sufficient housing quantities do not exist;

...

7. The member is assigned to a Professional Military Education (PME) or a training course that is scheduled for

a duration of one year or less.

 

 

[HossHarris]

Ask to talk to the first officer in the finance chain of command. Ruffles feathers with the sweaties...but gets the job done usually. 

[Bergman]

2 hours ago, HossHarris said:

Ask to talk to the first officer in the finance chain of command. Ruffles feathers with the sweaties...but gets the job done usually. 

Shack.  I've used this many times and it works.  Stay polite (don't give up the moral high ground!) but don't leave until you get some concrete answers from someone who knows WTF they are talking about.

 

 

[ThreeHoler]

The problem you are running into is the phrase "if authorized/approved by the Secretarial Process."

My understanding was they were talking about authorization by dependents to move +/- 6 months from the member but hadn't enacted it yet. More Googling necessary.

Edited August 12, 2017 by ThreeHoler
Spellung

[ThreeHoler]

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/279

Proposed in 2015. Still not approved. Services don't like it because it "will cost too much."

[MooseAg03]

Well, if they can cut back on pro gear and spouse pro gear because of the new definitions in the JTR, then they sure as f*ck can change my BAH per the JTR. I'm sick of this bullshit and them only following the regs when it benefits big blue.

 

[brabus]

Went through your exact situation 3 years ago. The solution is you write an MFR to the SAF office that handles travel/JTR stuff outlining the situation and referencing the JTR portions that apply. The key phrase is "normally approved via the secretarial process." That phrase is what auto makes this a SAF-level issue; there is nothing even your wing/cc can do. Start asking finance what the process is for the MFR, who specifically it goes to, etc.  FYI, it took the MSG/CC at my previous base to figure out the actual process.

If I can find my old MFR I'll send it to you, no promises it has survived the last two moves. 

EDIT: Found the MFR and approval response; Moose, send me a PM with your .mil email and I'll send over.

Edited August 13, 2017 by brabus

[MooseAg03]

It looks like this is the solution, MPF/Finance is submitting a BAH waiver to HQ AF/A1. We'll see what happens in a few weeks.

[rancormac]

Went to Edwards for a course and the closest airport is 90 min away in Ontario and diff Per Diem area. I'm authorized lodging around airport site for an early flight out the next day right? Would I have 2 per diem locations (airport and course)?

Ive combed through the JTR and I cannot find where-

1. It mentions flying into airports outside of TDY location 

2. Lodging allowed in airport location prior to return travel

[viper154]

6 hours ago, rancormac said:

Went to Edwards for a course and the closest airport is 90 min away in Ontario and diff Per Diem area. I'm authorized lodging around airport site for an early flight out the next day right? Would I have 2 per diem locations (airport and course)?

Ive combed through the JTR and I cannot find where-

1. It mentions flying into airports outside of TDY location 

2. Lodging allowed in airport location prior to return travel

I have no reference but every time I go TDY from home station the closest airport is a 90 minute drive, if it's a early flight we stay overnight by the airport the night before. I get reimbursed every time no questions, and yes, we get the rate for the airport location for that night. Probably not the book answer you wanted, but hey, gotta take what you can get. That is also my philosophy on beer and women............

[brabus]

Make Ontario a TDY location in DTS. Example:

Home Base = Depart 13 sep

TDY Location 1 = Edwards (assuming you fly into Ontario, but go to Edwards that day), arrive 13 sep, depart 19 sep

TDY Location 2 = Ontario, arrive 19 Sep, depart 20 Sep (early flight out the 20th).

Home Base = Arrive 20 Sep

Problem solved since per diem is tied to TDY location.  Never had a problem once using this method.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by brabus

[Weezer]

14 hours ago, brabus said:

Make Ontario a TDY location in DTS. Example:

Home Base = Depart 13 sep

TDY Location 1 = Edwards (assuming you fly into Ontario, but go to Edwards that day), arrive 13 sep, depart 19 sep

TDY Location 2 = Ontario, arrive 19 Sep, depart 20 Sep (early flight out the 20th).

Home Base = Arrive 20 Sep

Problem solved since per diem is tied to TDY location.  Never had a problem once using this method.

 

 

For sure-fire success, make sure it's in your orders/authorization that way, vice adjusting your per diem locations on your voucher.

[rancormac]

That's definitely what I did and passes the common sense test. 

I just couldn't find anything in the JTR that I could reference supporting it incase finance wigs out 

[the g-man]

6 hours ago, Weezer said:

For sure-fire success, make sure it's in your orders/authorization that way, vice adjusting your per diem locations on your voucher.

And always build authorizations with variations authorized checked.  You never know when stuff gonna change.

[Weezer]

15 hours ago, the g-man said:

And always build authorizations with variations authorized checked.  You never know when stuff gonna change.

I got called on overuse of the "variations authorized" a few times.  Here's a very patronizing link on the subject.  If you actually click through to the JTR, it doesn't give much more info, only, that you can go to destinations not named in the order, change the specified time spent at a named destination, change the sequence of the named destinations, and omit travel to named destinations.  Finance, in my experience, still makes you get amendments to extend the overall length of the trip, as well as change allowances such as staying off/on base.

[KWings06j]

On 9/14/2017 at 7:07 AM, Weezer said:

I got called on overuse of the "variations authorized" a few times.  Here's a very patronizing link on the subject.  If you actually click through to the JTR, it doesn't give much more info, only, that you can go to destinations not named in the order, change the specified time spent at a named destination, change the sequence of the named destinations, and omit travel to named destinations.  Finance, in my experience, still makes you get amendments to extend the overall length of the trip, as well as change allowances such as staying off/on base.

I've never had DTS orders that didn't have variations authorized. Even when I didn't build the orders myself it was always there.

[BFM this]

7 hours ago, KWings06j said:

I've never had DTS orders that didn't have variations authorized. Even when I didn't build the orders myself it was always there.

No. Depending on the community and RA involved, maybe.

At a staff gig, going for cross country jaunt, my RA looked at me like broccoli just sprouted out of my forehead when I'd clicked that block.  "Well don't you have a flight plan?  Don't you know where you're going?"  I gave it the ole college try to explain the concept of field hours, limited wx capability in a jet that has a number on the tail somewhere in the 60s, etc.  The look I got back was what I'd expect if I asked my golden retriever to get me a 10mm socket.

...so, I just built the executed itinerary for "approval" once I got back.

[Homestar]

13 hours ago, BFM this said:

The look I got back was what I'd expect if I asked my golden retriever to get me a 10mm socket.

At least your golden retriever can be trained...

[dream big]

I feel like we could make this thread a sub-forum of what is wrong with the Air Force.

[Weezer]

On 9/15/2017 at 11:54 PM, KWings06j said:

I've never had DTS orders that didn't have variations authorized. Even when I didn't build the orders myself it was always there.

The "callout" was over me asserting that I didn't have to approve a change of end date...apparently that didn't fall under the variations that were authorized.

[BashiChuni]

PERSCO problems...

in process into Kuwait with PERSCO..."sir can i see if you have your dog tags?"

"uh why?"

"just checking" (airman first class then takes a selfie behind the desk w/ her MSGT i shit you not)

They have us fill out 69 lines of useless in-processing shit...we get to new base in country for deployment.

4 weeks at new base PERSCO..."uh who are all of you guys?"

"uh wat?"

"yeah who are you and why are you here? why haven't you in-processed with us?"

Wasnt fcking Kuwait suppose to do that? and if they weren't why the fuck did we waste two hours going thru their line?

 

UFB. finance related b/c OBVIOUSLY our combat tax incentives haven't started. will be a mess AGAIN to battle finance for our $$$ when it comes DTS time.

f me

[dream big]

Last deployment, we in-processed with PERSCO.  Similar situation, there was some issue with paperwork, didn't affect combat pay.  We were flying missions through the day before we left.  PERSCO SrA tries to tell our leadership, a major, that we can't leave country unless we inprocess*, after we fu&king out-process.  Of course we didn't do it, we literally walked past her as we stepped to the planes.