Should I take an ART Job!

[Guest Aces_High78]

Hey guys,

Just want to get your opinion on an ART job that was offered to me recently. I'm a 1LT 30 years old. I guess I'm trying to decide whether it is best to run with the offer or remain a trougher. If I remain a trougher I would probably shoot for building airline time. However, with the ART job it seems as if it's more of an AF reserve career move. I've never been dead set for the airlines (especially now with the low hiring rate and the potential for no retirement or guaranteed salary). My goal was to fly for the Air Force the airlines are only interesting for the seemingly easy job it is and the money. I'm looking for advice from airline guys and from ARTs or from anyone who has been in the same situation as myself. Right now as a trougher I don't feel like I even have a job even though I work quite at bit. How much would that change? In the long run I think I could probably go either way but as long as I can still fly regularly and still go on AF trips then I guess I could be happy either way. The other thing is that at some point soon I would like to start a family. Looking at the airline guys it seems most of their home life is pretty up for grabs. It does seem like the ART guys have a much more stable home life. So I guess it boils down to what is better Airlines or ART job. All your facts and opinions are appreciated.

Thanks!

Edited February 26, 2008 by Aces_High78

[herkbum]

If you are 30 yrs old, then why not take the ART job now and then when you retire, apply to the airlines. You will be young enough to do both. Especailly now that they have raised the airline retirement age to 65. This is a decision you have to make on your own. Personally, I would take the ART job. I'm AGR and it's not too bad of a gig. But, I also never really had any interest in the airlines.

[skibum]

Take the ART job. You can always quit any time you want and go to the airlines. If your particular airline tanks (which will likely include other dudes in your unit), there will be a line of dudes wanting the ART job, and you may not be first in line.

[Hotel]

Some of the ART guys in my squadron said the pay scales just got cut last year (or were going to be cut). Plus the fact that you were working M-F, UTA, and taking any open lines that couldn't be filled = out to way more hours a month than you'd have to put in working an airline gig and troughing for the same paycheck.

I guess it depends on if you got an airline job offer and the troughing is good. If all I had was troughing and it wasn't that much I'd probably take the ART job despite the disadvantages.

[Guest PilotKD]

If you were offered the ART job, I'd take it and I'm saying that because I was in your position not so long ago. Don't burn bridges. Like anything, it's all about being in the right place at the right time, but getting an ART job for most, is very difficult. You never know. Being an ART and getting your foot in the door could save your bacon one day when you get furloughed from your beloved airline who doesn't give a $hit about you (I'll get more into that later). Your options right now are to stay a bum or put in some more hours at the unit and show them you're willing to give them more of your time (and make good money in the process). Landing an ART job as a 1LT is going to be quite profitable for you. What's the payscale? GS-12 or 13? Last year, between RUTA's, FTP's, AT days and alert orders, I made about $112k before tax as a GS-13-1/O-3. The cost of living adjustment is pretty high around here, but either way, as a GS-12 or 13, the pay ain't shabby. What kind of flight time do you have? Do you plan on doing the regionals before going to the majors? How long do you think it's going to take you in the airlines to make that kind of money? More importantly, can you be sure that the airline you choose will; (1) be around in 10-15 years, and; (2) won't merge with someone else at some point. The passenger carriers are a gamble and I personally wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.

The advantage of being an ART is that both of your jobs are in the same place. There's no commuting between your airline job and guard/reserve job. If you're working 15-18 days a month with the airlines, you've still gotta show up for UTA, fly a few times a month and go on a trip here and there. So you're looking at working at least 20 days a month with both jobs unless you land that 777 reserve FO who works about 12 days a month (rare). I'm sure you've got plenty of guys in your unit who can tell you what airline life is like. I've talked to plenty who rave about their company and others who despise their airline job and tell me to steer clear on the airlines like the plague. How many careers are out there, where you give 15-20+ years of your life into a company, that doesn't allow you to leave that company with your experience and make anything remotely near what you were making with another company because you have to start at the very bottom and work your way up again? The point is, once you put time into a major airline, you're commited. You cannot leave Airline X for Airline Y at that point unless you go to a corporate job that'll start you at $100k+ a year. Seniority is everything. Can you really say you're going work for the same airline until your 65 years old without a merger, furlough, and/or bankruptcy? Impossible. You can't. It's a crapshoot. Again, if you like to gamble, go for it, but have a very good backup plan.

I admit that the ART job wears on me, especially when I have to come back to work after a UTA weekend having been there for 7 days straight knowing I've gotta do another 4 days before I get a day off. It's not easy. The good part is, I make good money, I like the people I work with and I've still got the opportunity to get out of the office and go fly to bring my sanity back. The comraderie at the unit is good. Not sure I can say that about an airline. From what I hear, most of the airline guys are getting worked pretty hard when they're on their trips. 12 hour days between show and getting to the hotel. Noone wants to go out after they get to their overnight because they're too tired. So, you live your life out of a hotel half the month by yourself. As an ART, unless I fly at night to burn an FTP, I'm home by 5 every night. My schedule is predictable. I get all federal holidays off. I've got the option to earn/use comp time to adjust my schedule. Yes, I work a lot of hours and the grass is always greener, but again, where else could I go RIGHT NOW and get all the perks I mentioned above AND make decent money. Oh and BTW, collect a double retirement if I decide I want to put that kind of time into the civil service. Being an ART may or may not be for you, but like I said, if it was offered to you and you do not have a good reason right now to turn it down, I would take it.

[Guest awalkertx]

Aces High - I'm in the exact same position, almost. I'm 31, about to put on capt, and will be taking an ART position later this FY. I cannot speak for you, but I think the opportunity is a godsend for me. When I joined the unit reserves I quit my day job (civil engineer) and moved from the east coast to the west coast. Other than family, I had nothing else in CA. STP orders ending in at the end of the year and no regular job afterward kind of spooked me. While I'm not sure how long I decide to stay in the position, I now have years of options. It's a great feeling.

I'm now battling with whether or not I should buy back my AD military time towards retirement. I haven't been back to my unit since the ART thing came about (currently at Altus), and I haven't had a chance to talk to anyone about it. Pros/cons, logistics of it, etc. I am interested to find out more though.

Take care!

[Guest Aces_High78]

Thanks for all your input(s) I definitely appreciate it, makes the decision much easier.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Aces_High78

[B-O-double-Z]

If you are 30 yrs old, then why not take the ART job now and then when you retire, apply to the airlines. You will be young enough to do both. Especailly now that they have raised the airline retirement age to 65. This is a decision you have to make on your own. Personally, I would take the ART job. I'm AGR and it's not too bad of a gig. But, I also never really had any interest in the airlines.

Young enough to go to the airlines after retiring as an ART...? YGBSM.

I'm not trying to discourage the ART career (I am one), but the retirement age for an ART is 56. To me, that is hardly "young enough" to have any viable second career in the airlines. Sitting in the right seat in my late 50's, with no hope of ever having any seniority, wouldn't be my idea of a good time.

The good news about being an ART...

1. It is pretty high paying job.

2. If you like to fly the Air Force's toys, you can continue to do it long after your active duty peers are retired.

3. Ultimately, the combination of a civil service retirement, Reserve military retirement, government 401K, and Social Security, can make the retirement very lucrative...you just have to wait a long time to get it all.

4. Though you are limited in the amount of vacation time, you can pretty much take off work, within reason, whenever you want. What I'm getting at is, if there is something significant that you want to attend (kids sports, family weddings, funeral etc.) you can almost always work it out with your schedulers.

If I can make it through the gauntlet, and continue to fly until I'm 56 as a fighter pilot, the last thing I'd want to do after that is go piss around as a chickenshit airline co-pilot.

[hindsight2020]

Can't believe you're debating this as a young guy. Having troughing as the only source of income in town (my situation) you'd be crazy not to take the ART job. I'd give my left one to be in your position. The trough can dry up in an instant. Now what are you gonna do as a low time guy? Go back to engineering (my degree as well)? Hell no!.... Brother, take that ART and don't look back.

I'm in your situation but a little behind the timeline. I moved to my unit city specifically because I didn't have enough time for a major airline (screw the regionals) job and I'm not interested in commuting. The trough is going to put food on my table until I can snag an ART job and as sh$tty as depending on a variable income job with no backup employment is, I'd take the potential of a future ART position over any airline job, nevermind one I have to commute to AND sit reserve for. Of course I value my time at home and don't consider 12 days of work straight where I'm home every night even remotely as bas as commuting a single week, and the ART pay satisfies my family expectations. Congratulations on the ART offer.

[herkbum]

Young enough to go to the airlines after retiring as an ART...? YGBSM.

I'm not trying to discourage the ART career (I am one), but the retirement age for an ART is 56. To me, that is hardly "young enough" to have any viable second career in the airlines. Sitting in the right seat in my late 50's, with no hope of ever having any seniority, wouldn't be my idea of a good time.

Why can't he do 20 yeas as an ART, which would make him 50. Get hired by the airlines at 50, fly until he's 65? Not something I would want to do either, but it's out there. He wouldn't draw his retirement until later, but he would have a paying job to support himself. You can get pretty decent seniority in 15 years at an airline. Personally, I think he would be an idiot to not take the job if it is being offered to him. Who knows what is going to happen to the airline industry in the future.

[B-O-double-Z]

Why can't he do 20 yeas as an ART, which would make him 50. Get hired by the airlines at 50, fly until he's 65? Not something I would want to do either, but it's out there. He wouldn't draw his retirement until later, but he would have a paying job to support himself. You can get pretty decent seniority in 15 years at an airline. Personally, I think he would be an idiot to not take the job if it is being offered to him. Who knows what is going to happen to the airline industry in the future.

You can't "retire with 20" as an ART. You have to be at least 56 and have at least 20 years in the program to get the federal civil service retirement. If you quit the ART program after 20 (but less than 56), all you are going to get is an small Air Force Reserve retirement, based on your points, when you turn 60.

Like you...I'd suggest he take the ART job. He can quit any time and go to the airlines if he wants to. But, if you go all the way to ART (civil service) retirement, you'd be joining the airlines at 56+...the last thing I'd want to do... but, to each his own.

Bozz

[herkbum]

Roger, got it!

[Guest PilotKD]

Personally, I'd take the ART job, fly your ass off as a technician as much as you can, build hours, become AC (if you're not already), network with the part timers there and apply to FedEx, UPS or try to land yourself a corporate job. Avoid the regionals and PAX carriers like the plague. I think you'd be sick in the head to leave an ART job at 50 years old to go to anything but a box hauler or a high paying corporate gig. Lets see, at 50 years old, you'll be close to paying for college for your kid(s) and the last thing you want is to deal with an unstable, crapshoot of a career with a pax carrier. Unless of course in the next 20 years the airlines change dramatically, which I highly doubt.

[El Guapo]

If you want to start a family right now I'd say go ART. It is probably one of the best flying gigs if you have a wife and kids you like and don't like to be on the road much. The airlines can still be a good gig though. To me the ART schedule sucks. M-F, 7:30-4:30 is for bankers. The airlines give you total flexibility with your schedule. You can do day out and backs or 2 weeks on 2 weeks off like I do. It might take a little seniority but every day you are at the ART desk is a seniority number you're losing at the airlines. Yea pay cuts and work rules are not what they used to be but I still think it's a great job. Most important thing IMHO right now is to go wherever you will get the most PIC time as quickly as possible.

[Scooter14]

To me the ART schedule sucks. M-F, 7:30-4:30 is for bankers. The airlines give you total flexibility with your schedule.

Whatever you are smoking, I'd love to get my hands on it. The airlines give you total flexibility. Wow. Is that why I can only fly my traditionals once in a blue moon?

The ART schedule sucks, but not because 0730-1630 is for bankers. 0730-1630 is for dads who want to actually see their kids grow up and have a life that doesn't revolve around a crash pad. If you live at a hub/pilot base, good for you. If not, well, enjoy the X-Box and leftover chinese food.

Throw in SOF, night flights after your ART day, drill weekend and the week after (12 days of Americans held hostage) and all the meetings and associated BS that is the daily life in any squadron (AD, AFRES or ANG) and that's what sucks.

Pro - It's a job.

Con - You have to work. A lot. Especially when you get to be a scheduler, which you will become someday.

I'm an ART. When I got my job, I thought to myself "I'll just get a crapload of hours and punch to the airline." A few of my bros are new hires at the airlines and I'm watching them spend half the month in freaking Newark (no offense PilotKD) and shit, and I'm not so sure I wanna do that right now. I'm really not sure what I want to do in 5-10-20 years, but who cares because I have a j.o.b. right now.

M-F is good. Trust me. Let me play hockey on the weekends, fly me once a week, deploy me in my AEF bucket, let me go away for a Business Effort, AE or CORONET to break it up once a quarter or so, and I'm happy. For the most part.

[El Guapo]

Whatever you are smoking, I'd love to get my hands on it. The airlines give you total flexibility. Wow. Is that why I can only fly my traditionals once in a blue moon?

It's probably because in my days off I'd rather be fishing instead of flying a local. No one said you're gonna get a gravy schedule day 1 at the airlines. I'd sure as hell rather be at the bottom of a seniority list at 30 than 55. It also depends on your airframe and what kind of squadron you're in and what the culture is like. Mine is run by airline pilots for airline pilots. There's very little BS, just get your 1 and 1 each month and everyone's happy. No mandatory UTA's, etc. Point is, 22 days a month is way too much IMHO to work at any job. I've never met an airline pilot that works 22 days a month without wanting to. The whole idea is to work as little as possible.

Edited February 28, 2008 by El Guapo