General info on UPT (Undergraduate Pilot Training)

[Guest 130JGuardFlyer]

Hi all, I was wonderding if during UPT students were allowed off during Federal hollidays as defined per (5 U.S.C. 6103). Hollidays such as Memorial Day, Veterans Day and Columbus day. Also if one of these fall on a weekend then do you get the following Monday off?

Also has anyone had any difficulty living off base during UPT either while single or engaged especially while waiting to get married. I'm just trying to be able to plan for the future. Thanks for imput.

Yep, you get fed holidays off. Since just about every fed holiday either occurs or is observed on a Monday, the weekend issue rarely pops up. Veterans' Day is the only one that could occur on the weekend, and I assume they'd observe it on a Monday.

You're either single or married in the AF's eyes as far as UPT goes - engaged doesn't count. Unless you've been on casual and have been living off base before your class starts, you'll be in the dorms if you're single or in on-base housing if you're married. You can get on the list to move off base, but it's first come, first served, and the dorms need to maintain a certain occupancy, so when there's enough turnover (it was around the start of phase III for my class) people that wanted to move off base got the chance. I was married when I went through (so I couldn't stay in the dorms), but my wife was staying back home (since she wasn't with me, I couldn't get on-base housing), so I wound up getting an apartment off base.

[Bergman]

Hi all, I was wonderding if during UPT students were allowed off during Federal hollidays as defined per (5 U.S.C. 6103). Hollidays such as Memorial Day, Veterans Day and Columbus day. Also if one of these fall on a weekend then do you get the following Monday off?

Also has anyone had any difficulty living off base during UPT either while single or engaged especially while waiting to get married. I'm just trying to be able to plan for the future. Thanks for imput.

You SHOULD get those days off, but if you're behind the timeline you might end up flying on the Saturday of the 3 day weekend and still get the federal holiday off. NSTFS.

As for living off base...it's going to depend on which base and what's going on at that exact time. If you're single (or engaged - as mentioned, that means nada to the AF) I would plan on living on base, then if they let you leave consider yourself lucky. Personally, I would live on-base if at all possible. It saves the hassle of driving in to fly, front gate traffic, and trying to find a place to live in Cowtown USA.

[Toro]

With the new forum, I've been able to pull together a bunch of general info on UPT that was scattered throughout the forum into an uber-thread on UPT. The intent of this thread is to provide info to the noob who has no idea what goes on at UPT. There are still some separate UPT-related threads out there, but I don't want to smash everything into a massive catch-all, so here are some separate links to issues within UPT -

Preparing for UPT

UPT Cross Countries

Standups at UPT

Bringing a spouse/girlfriend/family to UPT

Hooking rides at UPT

Reporting to UPT early

Senior Ranking Officer at UPT

UPT Sick Days (DNIF)

Being treated poorly as a UPT student

UPT Bases

UPT Washout

What's UPT like for wives?

Doing well in UPT

There are still plenty of UPT threads out there (searching for "UPT" in thread titles still yields four pages of threads), but these are the more common ones. Next noob that starts a UPT thread is gonna get brained.

[Hawker]

Been looking around baseops for some info on this and couldn't find much if any. How many UPT classes are there per year? Specifically for Columbus since that is my base assignment but I'm also curious about the other bases as well so hopefully someone has some info on this. I'm just trying to get a range on when I will begin UPT.

[Ballman]

Been looking around baseops for some info on this and couldn't find much if any. How many UPT classes are there per year? Specifically for Columbus since that is my base assignment but I'm also curious about the other bases as well so hopefully someone has some info on this. I'm just trying to get a range on when I will begin UPT.

I've seen people start UPT about 2.5 months after commissioning and I've seen someone start 14 months after commissioning. I'm sure others on this board has seen extremes on both sides.

It's random and I definitely wouldn't put any thought or worry into when you start.

[Bayou_Eagle_Driver]

No joy on a search for this information..

Question about progression from T-6s to T-38s for a guy picked up by a guard fighter unit. What exactly is the standard that the student is held to in order to track T-38s?

I've known people who have been forced to track T-1s for performance reasons, and I even heard from some people that you have to be top X percentile in your UPT class to progress, is there any solid information out there regarding this? Any difference in standards at ENJJPT?

[brabus]

Top 50% is the WOM I've always heard/read, but sorry, don't have anything in writing to back that up. Just work your ass off and don't suck. Worrying about some number, class standing, etc. is not what you need to be doing, just put the effort in and you'll probably be fine.

[JBueno]

Top 50% is the WOM I've always heard/read, but sorry, don't have anything in writing to back that up. Just work your ass off and don't suck. Worrying about some number, class standing, etc. is not what you need to be doing, just put the effort in and you'll probably be fine.

I've heard top 50% as well. Brabus is right about just giving max effort and letting things take their course. But, in the grand scheme of your war-gaming, don't forget that you still have to do well enough in T-38s to get the nod for IFF. Not everyone does.

[Sondecker]

Tried searching, but no luck. Does anyone know what the process is if you want to fly C-21s or any DV aircraft? Do you track select it or do you have to wait until after you've been flying for a while and apply for the special duty and training? Thanks a lot for the advice.

[HiFlyer]

Tried searching, but no luck. Does anyone know what the process is if you want to fly C-21s or any DV aircraft? Do you track select it or do you have to wait until after you've been flying for a while and apply for the special duty and training? Thanks a lot for the advice.

C-21's drop to students out of SUPT fairly often (not meaning lots of slots, but a slot in many class drops over the course of the year at the various bases. By the way, C-21s are not considered VIP aircraft (those are mostly 89th Wing aircraft from Andrews and don't drop to UPT grads); they are called either "Intra-Theater Airlift" or DV airlift (C-21 and C-12). I think the 89th is mostly manned by experienced pilots who have had at least one operational tour in some transport aircraft.

[LoneStar]

Is it possible to show up to UPT and be too prepared? If a guy showed up with more ratings than another guy, are the IPs aware of this? I've heard a lot of different points of view on this:

1.) There is so much information thrown at you that you'd be better off getting as many ratings with as much time as you can.

2.) You shouldn't get a ton of time because you will learn habits that the Air Force doesn't want you to learn.

3.) You shouldn't show up with a ton of ratings, otherwise the IPs will raise the expectation bar much higher for you.

I've read on here that you guys say between 100-200 hrs is optimal, but is more than that necessarily a bad thing?

Thanks

2. Absolutely true - the AF is going to teach you their way to fly.

With that said - aerodynamics and instrument approaches are not really different based on the plane, it just is going to happen faster and with more stress. For many it is just the fact that getting "all those ratings" is a ton of money that the AF is going to be giving you when you get picked up for the program.

If you love to fly and have the cash - go for it. If not, study hard when you get there, because it ain't no joke!!

[bottlenose]

Is it possible to show up to UPT and be too prepared? If a guy showed up with more ratings than another guy, are the IPs aware of this? I've heard a lot of different points of view on this:

1.) There is so much information thrown at you that you'd be better off getting as many ratings with as much time as you can.

2.) You shouldn't get a ton of time because you will learn habits that the Air Force doesn't want you to learn.

3.) You shouldn't show up with a ton of ratings, otherwise the IPs will raise the expectation bar much higher for you.

I've read on here that you guys say between 100-200 hrs is optimal, but is more than that necessarily a bad thing?

Thanks

I started UPT with about 1,100 hours of civilian time, CFII, CFI etc..

From my perspective having my prior experience has most definitely helped me. It all comes down to the individuals ability to adapt to learning new ways (rather quickly!)...That being said, I personally know people with prior flight time who struggled, though generally I feel guys with prior flight time do pretty well.

As for the IP's having higher expectations of those with prior flight time... This has not been an issue for me. The IP's must grade you to the standards, not their own personal standards that they think you should be at. Some instructors may push you a little harder however and see what you are capable of. They know this is not civilian flying and there is an adaptation period for everyone with prior flight time.

Instrument rating is the best to have IMO because there isn't a whole lot that is different to civilian.

So to summarize... It all depends on the individual.

Edited June 29, 2011 by bottlenose

[HiFlyer]

Another way to put it:

1. None of those three is accurate.

2. Any amount of experience can be helpful.

The operative word is "attitude"; if you think you can walk through the program because you have 100 or 1000 hours, or all the ratings the FAA offers, you're in for a terrible surprise. If you are willing to work hard, listen, and learn, you'll probably do well regardless of hours or ratings. Attitude is the key to success in most things, and especially in SUPT.

[Springer]

ired

The operative word is "attitude"; if you think you can walk through the program because you have 100 or 1000 hours, or all the ratings the FAA offers, you're in for a terrible surprise. If you are willing to work hard, listen, and learn, you'll probably do well regardless of hours or ratings. Attitude is the key to success in most things, and especially in SUPT.

I had min time from the hours I acquired thru ROTC. Prior to that I was in a light airplane only once and quite frankly it scared the crap out of me. Add the time I got to peer into a F-4 cockpit and thinking "no f*cking way I could ever do this," I was pretty intimidated about the idea of going to UPT. I was a surfer dude barely making it thru the U of Hawaii. No preconceived notion of what I wanted to fly, just hoping to graduate. I was the most unlikely candidate to be a DG and go on to fly F-4s. As previously stated, it's all about attitude, setting high standards and most important of all, building confidence in yourself.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Springer

[jjfly]

As previously stated, it's all about attitude, setting high standards and most important of all, building confidence in yourself.

2- but one good way to build confidence is to fly a little before UPT. I wouldn't waste your money going out and getting all your ratings before hand. Personally, I'd recommend getting up to 12 or so hours- maybe get 1 or 2 solo flights under your belt to build confidence. Just another opinion from a guy who spent ~$8,000 on PPL prior to UPT.

[-Rolex-]

Is it possible to show up to UPT and be too prepared? If a guy showed up with more ratings than another guy, are the IPs aware of this? I've heard a lot of different points of view on this:

1.) There is so much information thrown at you that you'd be better off getting as many ratings with as much time as you can.

2.) You shouldn't get a ton of time because you will learn habits that the Air Force doesn't want you to learn.

3.) You shouldn't show up with a ton of ratings, otherwise the IPs will raise the expectation bar much higher for you.

I've read on here that you guys say between 100-200 hrs is optimal, but is more than that necessarily a bad thing?

Thanks

I entered IFS/UPT with 0 hours and was fortunate enough to drop a Hog. How to get from A to B? From my experience it boils down to knowing yourself, commitment and timing.

1. Knowing yourself: I know I"m a quick learner so I wasn't too concerned about getting hours beforehand. That being said, if you know you are a bit slower to get things down then when the firehose hits (and it will) I can see where previous experience will provide you with a solid foundation to help you stay afloat.

2. Commitment: For the majority of both phase 2 and 3 I came home after a 12 hour day, ate dinner and hit the books/chairflew until I went to bed. Every single night. If you want it that bad you will put up with seemingly never ending groundhog days and consequently do well.

3. Timing: This you can't really control but you can work your ass off and hopefully put yourself in a position to be there when the aircraft you want drops.

There are many small steps to take to make it to the end, take it one day at a time and good luck!

[Smokey]

I entered IFS/UPT with 0 hours and was fortunate enough to drop a Hog. How to get from A to B? From my experience it boils down to knowing yourself, commitment and timing.

1. Knowing yourself: I know I"m a quick learner so I wasn't too concerned about getting hours beforehand. That being said, if you know you are a bit slower to get things down then when the firehose hits (and it will) I can see where previous experience will provide you with a solid foundation to help you stay afloat.

2. Commitment: For the majority of both phase 2 and 3 I came home after a 12 hour day, ate dinner and hit the books/chairflew until I went to bed. Every single night. If you want it that bad you will put up with seemingly never ending groundhog days and consequently do well.

3. Timing: This you can't really control but you can work your ass off and hopefully put yourself in a position to be there when the aircraft you want drops.

There are many small steps to take to make it to the end, take it one day at a time and good luck!

That about sums it up. Coming into the fight with experience can help you, but as an IFS IP, I can tell you that too much experience can be as much of hurdle as having no experience. Bad habits. Fighting against learning to do it our way. Etc.

There is a reason that UPT demands you do maneuver X in this manner. It's because the pilot that can put his/her aircraft where they want, how they want, and when they want, in a controlled training environment is the pilot that is ready to move onto the next step of flying an operational aircraft. Not a civilian vs military debate. Most civilian pilots are lazy and lack precision. Why? They've never had to be truly precise. If they find the runway....they're happy. If you don't get your package to the target within TOT tolerance and deliver the weapon in the tolerance prescribed by FRAG.....you failed your mission.

Smokey

[dream big]

I found having prior time (100 hours) helped me tremendously in IFS and Whiting T-34s.

It didn't make any difference by the time I got to T-38s

Many speculate that there is no difference between 100 hours in a Cessna and 1000 hours. T-38s/ phase 3 was a complete different ball game.

That being said, if you want it that bad, fork out some money and get SOME prior time. Don't waste your money getting an instrument rating. Just come in with the attitude of eyes and ears open, mouth shut; get ready to unlearn stuff, and study/chair fly your ass off while being a bro and helping your classmates.

Oh and don't be that guy that goes off on his own to eat lunch, does not hang out on weekends etc. Hang out with your classmates. That BOND will get your class through UPT!

[C17Driver]

No joy on a search for this information..

Question about progression from T-6s to T-38s for a guy picked up by a guard fighter unit. What exactly is the standard that the student is held to in order to track T-38s?

I've known people who have been forced to track T-1s for performance reasons, and I even heard from some people that you have to be top X percentile in your UPT class to progress, is there any solid information out there regarding this? Any difference in standards at ENJJPT?

It's an old question but it wasn't answered correctly. Go read the 36-2205v4. There is no top 50% requirement to track T-38s. Leadership can use your low MASS score to decide your track, but they don't have too. They can also "force" dudes into a track if they feel it would be best.

[matmacwc]

It's an old question but it wasn't answered correctly. Go read the 36-2205v4. There is no top 50% requirement to track T-38s. Leadership can use your low MASS score to decide your track, but they don't have too. They can also "force" dudes into a track if they feel it would be best.

50% truth, if you earned bottom 50, you get bottom 50. You then need permission from your host unit to continue, which most do, but congrats on highlighting yourself. I have seen the bottom go T-38s, welcome to your dead last dude on your T-38 class.

[C17Driver]

50% truth, if you earned bottom 50, you get bottom 50. You then need permission from your host unit to continue, which most do, but congrats on highlighting yourself. I have seen the bottom go T-38s, welcome to your dead last dude on your T-38 class.

Unless you're active duty and there is no host unit.... Which means leadership makes the decision...at the base level.

[matmacwc]

Ahhh, I have seen that as well. Generally, no bottom 50% to T-38 with a few exceptions. "Leadership" can request it,but it's generally met with resistance, but sometimes it happens, especially with a dude with a great attitude. That dude usually ends up with the pred/MC12/AWACS, but they graduate. Only speaking as a former T-38 flight commander, and only 2-3 years ago.

[C17Driver]

Ahhh, I have seen that as well. Generally, no bottom 50% to T-38 with a few exceptions. "Leadership" can request it,but it's generally met with resistance, but sometimes it happens, especially with a dude with a great attitude. That dude usually ends up with the pred/MC12/AWACS, but they graduate. Only speaking as a former T-38 flight commander, and only 2-3 years ago.

Totally depends on the group and wing leadership. Current guidance is that it's acceptable. As far as what they get... Last XL drop had 1 fighter and everyone else got the aircraft you mentioned. Drop before that was only a little different.

[xcraftllc]

I was looking through this info, both on this thread and the dedicated baseops webpage, trying to get a good feel for the timeline and order of operations leading up to UPT and so-on. Perhaps one of the moderators wouldn't mind making a pinned one-page thread that kinda outlines the process to help clarify it for people who are new to it. Something like "Flight Training Timeline and Order of Events" perhaps. It might also make for a good quick reference to check yourself if you have a question about something. Or maybe some high speed guy could go totally nuts, be a hero and make a flow chart that accounts for different circumstances!

Here's what I've gathered, along with some stuff I'm uncertain about and would like to have clarified. As an example, I'll use a guard unit with a prior-service candidate who has SERE C, a commercial instrument rating, class one physical, and a secret clearance (since that's what I'm pursuing):

Month 1: Application submission.

Month 2: Generally nothing

Month 3: Board Convenes, packets are reviewed. Candidates are chosen for phone interviews.

Month 4: Phone interviews are conducted and the remaining candidates are invited to a personal interview.

Month 5: Interviews are conducted and primary/alternate are selected.

Month 6-12: MEPS/Medical/Administrative processing etc. (maybe less for prior service?)

Month 13/14: AMS (if available and faster, if it's faster to go through BOT, although the course is longer, then that will be used)

Month 15: A course for pilot/nav/cso etc. tracks I think. Not UPT academics, something else. Is there such a thing, and does it have to be taken before UPT?

Month 16: UPT (the academic portion first and then everything else).

This is of particular concern for me since I will be turning 30 in February of 2016. The applications for the board I wish to compete in are due in September, with a board convening in November/December. If my timeline is correct, I should be able to be in UPT by the age of 30 without any ETPs. Again, I'm already SERE C qualified, have a commercial instrument license, class one physical, and 6 years in service.

Edited March 15, 2014 by xcraftllc

[xcraftllc]

Also, I just wanted to throw this out there for people who are uncertain: As pointed out in the IFS thread, IFS is not required for people who have their license:

"1.1 ... Pilot, RPA pilot, and CSO candidates with a private pilot certificate are exempt from IFS."

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/aetc/publication/aetci36-2205v3/aetci36-2205v3.pdf

Edited March 15, 2014 by xcraftllc