C-17 Globemaster Q&A

[Steve Davies]

Just farming images from the AF website and came accross a series of shots showing C-17 co-pilots flying left handed in the left hand seat.

Would it not make more sense to have the more experienced A/C fly from the left seat, allowing the co-pilot to fly with the 'more natural' right hand? Is there a particular reason that the AF does it this way (or is it just the done thing a la the civilian world)?

[KennyB]

C-17 and C-130 (and possibly tankers, chime in) pilots go through the MPD program (Mobility Pilot Development). Coming out of the schoolhouse as a brand new copilot, they can fly airland in the left or the right seat. Depending on what time period they graduated, they may be able to fly tactical airdrop and low levels in both seats as well.

These pilots do not have to return to the schoolhouse for aircraft commander upgrade, they can upgrade inhouse. So it's a big $$ savings all around, and copilots get the experience in both seats before becoming ACs.

[Steve Davies]

C-17 and C-130 (and possibly tanks, chime in) pilots go through the MPD program (Mobility Pilot Development). Coming out of the schoolhouse as a brand new copilot, they can fly airland in the left or the right seat. Depending on what time period they graduated, they may be able to fly tactical airdrop and low levels in both seats as well.

These pilots do not have to return to the schoolhouse for aircraft commander upgrade, they can upgrade inhouse. So it's a big $$ savings all around, and copilots get the experience in both seats before becoming ACs.

That makes sense. So, who decides which seat the co will fly from?

Thanks for the info.

[GW]

So, who decides which seat the co will fly from?

The A code.

Or depending on requirements, the decision could be made by the mission.

GW

edit:grammer

[FUSEPLUG]

When we come out of Altus' Pilot Initial Qual (PIQ) program we are considered "First Pilots." What this means exactly, I don't know. But from day one, as long as we are with an IP, we can fly from either left or right seat during all phases of flight and on missions. There is no real system (that I've seen) for determining who flys from which seat. It's usually just a "which seat you want?" when we get to the jet. Sometimes an IP will feel more comfortable flying from the left seat if we are doing AR or something like that, but most of the time they try to get FP's in the left seat to build confidence.

My understading of the upgrade process now is that when we go back to Altus for PCO (Pilot Checkout?) we're expected to be somewhat proficient in flying assaults and holding contact in AR (to name a few items). It's more of a "checkout" than an instructional program. When we get back to our unit, we do a few buddy rides as "acting AC" before finally doing an operational mission with an evaluator for certification as AC.

That's a couple years down the road for me, so I can't speak too intelligently on it, but that's what I've heard. I'm sure someone will be able to elaborate.

[Guest LtThor]

11-2C-17v3

5.4.2. PICs who possess less than 100 Primary Assigned Aircraft (PAA) hours in the C-17 since certification

will perform all takeoffs and landings.

EXCEPTION: They may allow current ACs or higher to perform takeoffs and landings when

required to maintain currency.

5.4.3. Copilot Takeoff/Landing Policy. Copilots may takeoff or land from the right seat if an AC with

over 100 PAA hours since certification in the C-17 occupies the left seat. Copilots may takeoff and

land from the left seat only if an instructor pilot or flight examiner provides direct supervision from

the right seat.

5.4.4. First Pilots and graduates of the Pilot Initial Qualification (PIQ) course may takeoff or land

from either seat if an AC with over 100 PAA hours since certification in the C-17 occupies the other

seat.

FCB Vol 1A (1 APR 07)

3. The legacy airlift 100 hour restriction was intended to provide a period of seasoning for new ACs.

This revised policy preserves the focus on the new AC while maximizing training opportunities for our next generation of ACs.

SUPT graduates/MPD pilots are better prepared to operate as part of a mobility aircrew and should not be

limited by the previous copilot to aircraft commander development process.

4. AMC/A3 deletes the legacy "100 hour" aircraft commander takeoff and landings restrictions listed in paragraphs A through C below.

The new MAF takeoff and landing policy is described in paragraph 5.

A. AFI 11-2C-5 Vol 3 para 5.4.3

B. AFI 11-2C-17 Vol 3 para 5.4.2, 5.4.3, and 5.4.4

C. AFI 11-2C-130 Vol 3 para 5.4.2, 5.4.3, and 5.4.4.

5. Unless the other pilot in the seat is a certified AC or higher, pilots in command (PIC) with less than 100 primary assigned aircraft (PAA)

hours since AC certification will make all takeoffs and landings under any of the following conditions:

1. Ceiling/visibility less than 300 feet and/or RVR 40 (3/4 SM visibility).

2. RCR less than 12.

3. Crosswind component greater than 15 knots.

[sputnik]

Thanks for your help C21. People just respond with... "yeah, those are nice but they are gone a lot". But really, who isn't anymore?

Who isn't gone? F15C guys for one. Before OEF/OIF fighter guys lived in desert for ONW/OSW, compartively for most fighter/bomber MWS's life has gotten better, or hasn't gotten worse. Not so true for airlift.

It's hard to say what life in the 17 will be like. I got to McChord in 00 when there was only one C17 Squadron and it was actually hard to fly for the first few months. Then life absolutely sucked. Then after 9/11 it became really bad. I think in general this 2 EAS system is great but I just have my doubts it'll hold. At a certain point I think TACC is just going to realize they have all these crews "sitting" around CHS and TCM and start tasking accordingly. From a big AF point of view the EAS is the smart move, it's just efficient use of crews. The last two week SRT I pulled I spent exactly half the trip getting to and from the Lik. It was great for my crew quality of life, but pretty moronic from an AF point of view. Right now there are a lot of channel missions that were pawned off to KC10s or CRAF, looking at the new crew availability in AMC my fear/guess is TACC will not renew the CRAF contracts. If you talk to the old crusty guys who flew during Desert Shield/Storm, after they got back they didn't do crap for a year till AMC got the contracts back. So, while I find the news out of CHS/TCM encouraging, I'm not counting on it holding.

By the way, most Herc guys I know are/were out of Dyess, where they were pulling 120 on 120 off.... a heck of a lot worse than what the 17 is looking at. Is it better at other slick bases?

[lloydbraun]

PHIK is a pretty great assignment right now. Seems to me like we're overmanned (too many copilots, too many IP's, and too many loads) Most of the co-pilots are fighting to go support the 2 EAS system. If the 2 EAS system stays around, as soon as PAED is full up it wouldn't surprise me to see a PHIK/PAED co-op taking a full 4 month rotation. I'm, on average, gone about 1 week a month. not including my deployment to "the box".

[sputnik]

Hickam IS overmanned, which makes it funny that they are still getting warm bodies. While Dover, Elmo and Travis are completely undermanned with no relief in sight. HIK leadership wants to play in the war so they have soft commited to keeping two crews at the North EAS, which is a nice bonus for TCM. SRTs are 60 days, so it's not too bad and seems to be more people who want to go than get to so that's always good.

No one really knows what life will be like at Elmo but going guess is much like Hickam--mostly Pacific flying and SRTs of 7 days or less. Like HIK Elmo is getting a weekly Indian Ocean Channel mission--i.e. a 7 day trip that gets you a tax free but you don't even have to wear deserts....

I think the above remark about the joint deployment is a fair assessment, at least it does seem to be conventional wisdom in PACAF. PACAF wants to play in the war too, and if we go we'll empty the Pacific out, meaning all the CONUS units will finally get to fly in the Pacific too.

Addressing some other remarks earlier in the thread--the Ice mission. McChord is keeping it....for now. But it used to be officially "owned" by whatever the HQ element is down at March. PACAF took it over 2005. It seemed odd that TCM would never PCS Ice IPs to HIK, though the strategy is becoming clear. While TCM clearly doesn't want to give the mission up, and I'm sure March wants back in, conventional wisdom (for whatever that's worth) is that Hickam will pick it up. Soon.

Airdrop at Elmo--it's there. They're still working out the percentage. HIK has a 25% requirement, which is mostly idiotic as there are no airborne units in Hawaii (other than very very small SOF types with no riggers) and the drop zones suck and...the list goes on. Elmo is starting out at least at that level, still not sure how far it will go. Army has an entire Airborne Brigade there, and that's a lot of support required. They're currently deployed, but when they get back end of 07 their needs are going to be huge. 8 17s replacing 18 130s there won't quite pay the bill. Hickam is going to get a lot of airdrop practice there too but wouldn't completely surprise me if Elmo becomes the first 100% airdrop unit.

[Guest Safe&Clear]

So, I hear the new C-17 unit in Alaska is "composite". (I think that means both Active & Guard/Reserve dudes flying...)

Are AD types jumping all over this trying to get orders? Or is VSP prompting people to jump ship and go Guard to get up there? None of the above?

I ask because I'm a C-130 type and not a member of the Globemaster fraternity, so probably couldn't get into that unit. Unless they're hurting...

[Guest Safe&Clear]

OK, without going into "AF Portal" or "AMS" or "My AFPC", figuring out which of my dozen un-recallable passwords is functioning, and muddling around for 2 hours, riddle me this:

What are the latest facts-- or rumors-- on Active Duty assignments available or coming available in Alaska?

C-12s? Slicks? C-17s??

I'm one of the few who's never had a sh!tty assignment or a non-flying assignment. Trying to score another sweet deal to keep me in...

[HerkDerka]

What are the latest facts-- or rumors-- on Active Duty assignments available or coming available in Alaska?

C-12s? Slicks? C-17s??

C-12s and C-17s. Kulis is being brac'd and will move their ops over to Elmo within a couple years. Eventually that unit will become a reverse assosciate unit, so slicks will be possible again in the future. Word around he rumor mill is that they may put a unit of C-27s up there when those come down the pike.

HD

[fou]

Wondering if the C-17 has a coffee pot and/or a way to boil water.

[Clayton Bigsby]

The hot cup for boiling water is pretty much always there on missions, unless it's broken for some reason, and you can request it from fleet on locals when they bring out your water/box nasties.

I would ask that if it's something really important to you as a pilot, maybe help the loads out with that if you can - it's entirely possible they could be busy doing cargo stuff at that time, and fleet showing up to the airplane and bringing all the necessary crap/forms to sign is just another person harassing the loads when they're busy. It's something the loads usually take care of, but like I said sometimes we're in the middle of something.

If you coordinate it at One (more) stop, you can get the craptastic coffee containers that plug into the galley, but it costs money and I hear the coffee blows ass.

[PirateAF]

Does anyone out there have a KSUU update like the previous update on PAED?

Specifically, I've heard rumors that KSUU might get a limited Airdrop mission...

Peace!

[C17Driver]

Does anyone out there have a KSUU update like the previous update on PAED?

Specifically, I've heard rumors that KSUU might get a limited Airdrop mission...

Peace!

We will not be getting a "limited" airdrop mission anytime soon....at the last meeting where it was discussed, it was mentioned that it would be 3 to 5 years at best, if ever.

[Guest regularjoe]

I am sure that someone will laugh at me for asking, and yes I did search under C-17, C-17 slats, C-17 wings (not the answer I was looking for)

So my question is this. Why are the slats on C-17's unpainted?

I have a feeling it is for some sort of deicing system but always wondered as it makes certain parts of the wing very reflective which is something I think would make you very obvious/standout when on approach in certain parts of the world that are typically sunny.

I can't imagine how this is an OPSEC issue but if it is then disregard.

[CHS17]

So my question is this. Why are the slats on C-17's unpainted?

The portion of the slats you are referring to are inboard of each engine. They are unpainted, and most likely reinforced, because when the slats are extended and the engines are in reverse thrust, that's where the thrust goes. The way the reversers are set up, reverse thrust goes forward and up. There's a caution in -1 about leaving the slats extended when the engines are in the reverse thrust range for any extended time.

The rest of the slats are painted

[Clayton Bigsby]

Same thing for the APU, the APU exhaust blows straight up from the right side, and just like the caution in the -1 there's one about running the APU with the slats extended for a long period of time. Of course, the heat/'thrust' from the APU is small pickings compared to what comes from the reverser cascades...

[HuskyPilot]

I've been trying to do a lot of research on this site lately on the C-17. I've heard multiple takes on flying time in the 17. Some say you're gone 250ish days a year while others say the new co-pilots struggle to get trips. Does anyone have the latest intel on the flying situation? I'd love to hear any and all comments but more specifically on life as a brand new 17 pilot new to the jet. I'm still in ROTC (trying to figure out what I want to fly) so the latest news is more relevant to me. Thanks!

[Guest JimmyH]

Today new guys are getting 3 10-18 day trips every two months. They aren't hurting to fly at all. You're still in ROTC so no sense in even thinking about it. Things will change 500 times between now and when it maters for you, so take everything with a grain of salt. If you're trying to decide what to fly think of the overall mission -- tact airlift, strat airlift, tanker, bomber, fighters, uav, etc etc. TDY rates and hours per year and all that will constantly be in flux for all airframes.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

I've been trying to do a lot of research on this site lately on the C-17. I've heard multiple takes on flying time in the 17. Some say you're gone 250ish days a year while others say the new co-pilots struggle to get trips. Does anyone have the latest intel on the flying situation? I'd love to hear any and all comments but more specifically on life as a brand new 17 pilot new to the jet. I'm still in ROTC (trying to figure out what I want to fly) so the latest news is more relevant to me. Thanks!

The C-17 is the current workhorse of OIF/OEF from a airlift standpoint. While you have to give kuddos for the Herks for the intratheater lift, the C-17 is what gets the stuff downrange - then the herks take it in most part from there. As a new co-pig, at least at McChord, you can expect approx 500-700 hours per year...if you are an airland guy. If you go out and become airdrop qual'd, the numbers go down about 100-200 year because of the schools and currency. You do not have to beg for trips right now....that's because of the Banner missions and current world operations. Things change all of the time, so the information would only be relevant once you are in the system. Because you are 2-3 years away, I wouldn't worry too much on the little things right now.

Bottom line, as a new guy, you can expect about to be gone about 20-30 days for every 2 months or so...that equates to a 10 day stage, home for about 6-10 days then back on another mission. While this isn't all inclusive, it's about the norm for our squadron here at McChord. So far this year, I've been home 43 days....based on 4 OST's, 4 EAS missions, CoPilot Airdrop school, Deep Freeze, AC Airdrop School - and I leave for IP school on Tuesday...the we deploy (again) in Feb.

Other than going to the Died' - I couldn't imagine flying or doing anything else.

[Nightrider03]

It all depends on the base...I'm at Dover, with 8 (soon to be 9) tails, and 69 FPs, a squadron that isn't on the books to deploy until 2010, and leadership that has "creative" ways of picking who gets to go on 60 deployments with other squadrons. I fly (if i'm lucky) 1 mission (usually a 2-4 day banner mission) a month and a local. It blows. Plus, now we are getting UAV non-vols for FPs. I love the jet, and there are lots of cool folks in the 3d, but it's frustrating to say the least.

[PirateAF]

Currently you're looking at 200-300 hours for a new guy. If it's your squad's turn to hit one of the deployed stages for 120, then you can add another 200 hours to that number. Right now the C-5s and the KC-10s are getting more hours than we are, and that's only from hearing from friends who are flying those airframes. The ops tempo is never exactly where you want it - and it never will be.

My advice? Pick your airframe on the type of flying that you'll be doing. I know I'm biased, but you can't go wrong with the 17.

[GKinnear]

Long time lurker, first time poster....

Define "creative".