C-17 Globemaster Q&A

[Guest Jarrell]

Thanks for Mcchord update, C21.

PirateAF, I'm assuming you're talking about CHS...?

Anyone willing to share updates on the status of 17s at Hickam and McGuire regarding manning and missions for newbies?

dream sheet to be filled shortly...

[Nightrider03]

Long time lurker, first time poster....

Define "creative".

Well, the most annoying part is that no one has been told what criteria is being used. Some have made sense, ie, send the FAIPs and cross flows from other airframes since they will upgrade to AC sooner, and we could definitely use more ACs. However, some have made me go "huh?". Not enough info is getting passed to the masses, other than "sorry we chose this person instead, but we'll roll everyone into the selection pool for the next one." There are FPs with more experience getting passed over for brand new FPs (no prior pilot experience) just in-processing the squadron, so there is some bitterness starting to surface among the peasants.

I don't think it would matter so much if we were getting missions, but they just aren't flowing down the pipe, so deploying is the only way to get any hours. Plus we've been told that we will be sending about 15 FPs to Preds within a year.

[sputnik]

Thanks for Mcchord update, C21.

PirateAF, I'm assuming you're talking about CHS...?

Anyone willing to share updates on the status of 17s at Hickam and McGuire regarding manning and missions for newbies?

dream sheet to be filled shortly...

Hickam was great as of a year ago. Seemed like their manning flowed okay--i.e. not the aformention 69 FP's. Despite being told that everyone would get four year tours in an effort to cut PCS costs, the first 9 guys coming up on 3 years got their extensions denied. Which I take to mean will allow for a lot of assignments that way starting in Jan 09.

PACAF 17 flying is awesome, trips almost never longer than 7 days, fly both east and west. At Elmo we did get the five zillion FPs and I know they're frustrated. We always max out on pilots just so everyone gets hours, which is aggravating. The first few guys will start upgrading next year and that should smooth out the crew ratios. The 60 day deployments are regarded as a good deal, no one is forced, there's always a long line of volunteers. In AMC they deploy the EAS squadrons, which takes so many tails off the ramp that...actually I have no idea how much the other squadrons get to fly but I've heard else what C21 said, not enough, but 500-700 hours seems like quite a bit, more than guys here are getting. Anyway where I was going is thus far it appears that no matter how much leadership tries we're never going to get an EAS and therefore our tails aren't deployed and we still get missions. Since our missions are usually less than a week this rotates the crews. Right now we just have too many FPs so ACs are probably flying a bit more than they'd like and FPs clearly less.

We've been told that FPs with at least a year on station "can" go to UAVs if they want. Thus far there has been no word, official or not, that guys will "have" to go. Somewhere in my bleak heart I'm kind of expecting it though.

I'll jump on the bandwagon of not trying to pick airframe/location based on hours. It just changes so much, no matter what its like now odds are it'll be completely different when you get there. I tell the guys who want more flying/TDY to enjoy being home, cause sooner or later they'll wish they had that time. Enjoy having copilot freedom, it ends. I've seen the C17 world where newbies all got 1000+ hours their first year and 300+ days TDY. Now, not so much.

If you have a choice, pick an airframe you want (17 is a nice choice, personal opinion) and pick a location where you'd like to live on the odd chance you're not TDY.

EDIT: I guess I'll add this for the very hardcore--take training and mission into account. Not all bases have airdrop, if you do/do not want that mission you should consider this (I know Dover is airland only, I though McGuire and Travis were same--?). For training I got to say Hawaii sucks. No low levels, dz's suck and Kbay is the only transition field you can do touch and goes at and the way it's situated in the bay imposes restrictions. The nearest ALZ is 6 hours away at Moses Lake (only 4 hours from Elmo!!). Painted ALZ's ain't the best training and while flying around Maui at 500 ft and 250 kts is beautiful it's not exactly the best low level training. Training wise TCM and CHS have it the best with Moses and North respectively. Anywhere else in lower 48 you're close enough you can probably get there once in a while. Once you go to PACAF it's hard. Like I said, if you think you'd like Hawaii, and have a choice, screw the training--as Elvis discovered Hawai doesn't suck.

Edited June 29, 2008 by sputnik

[PirateAF]

Thanks for Mcchord update, C21.

PirateAF, I'm assuming you're talking about CHS...?

Anyone willing to share updates on the status of 17s at Hickam and McGuire regarding manning and missions for newbies?

dream sheet to be filled shortly...

Yes, that's the current situation at CHS.

Sputnik just hit some great points for training considerations - you'll probably be a better trained FP at CHS/TCM simply due to the proximity of the Aux field. Flying 4-6 hours do to an assault has got to kill your proficiency, but honestly, when was the last time I landed an operational assault!?! In my 2500 hours in the 17 the only thing that's come close is a 90ft wide runway in South Africa somewhere. However, having an Aux field nearby will gen you up so much faster on NVG ops, tac arrivals, transition ops in general; if you're trying to do all of that at a busy mil or civilian airfield (Elmo or at Hickham) it's going to be tough. I was just out at the Deid and we had at least 4-5 Dover FPs coming out for 60 days to get hours. Didn't see any Elmo or Hik guys though.

I've got to plug the 17 again, regardless of the peaks and valleys in flying hours. If you just sit back and expect to get a ton of flying hours thrown your way, forget it. But if you proactively work with the schedulers (and with your schedule conflicts) you can work 300-400 a year. Operational airdrop in the 17 rocks.

[sputnik]

We were landing on 90' of Bagram and Kandahar for quite some time, but I agree with you the training is a fairly minor issue. We get to Moses every once in a while and it's great to get back on a real ALZ.

Elmo and Hik are smart, we only deploy our guys to Incirlik. As I said, PACAF is nice. And that's partially why the deployments are sought after.

[nrodgsxr]

for fps the the base really matters as to how much you'll fly. I'm in CHS and a Mchord guy I know that graduated UPT after me has almost 200 more hours than me. Charleston sucks because of the politics, the J-alerts, lack of trips. The city is great though and I love the jet.

[The Kayla]

stupid wife question!

Is it possible for Hickam to get more -17's? or are they "stuck" at 8 -17's?

[sputnik]

stupid wife question!

Is it possible for Hickam to get more -17's? or are they "stuck" at 8 -17's?

Anything's possible, but as of right now there is no plan. Big problem is that all the aircraft currently owned or ordered are already spoken for. If they buy more, generally the way they get support in Congress is to reward key (i.e. powerful) Senators and/or Congressmen by putting them in their state. Which is how Hawaii and Alaska got them in the first place.

If more are ordered, expect more guard/reserve units to get them--a la Wright-Patt, Stewart, etc--not already equipped units.

[The Kayla]

I'm losing my eye sight from reading all these threads on this forum!

Here is Stupid wife Question #1,837

Is there an AD C-17 Base in Alaska? If so, is there a reason there hasn't been any drops to this location from UPT?

Or, is this something that you have to "ask" for like -130's and U-28's?

Thanks is advance guys!

[Champ Kind]

They have AD C-17s at Elmendorf AFB, AK. Being in Alaska, they fall under PACAF (like Hawaii). I've been up there for Red Flag, and it's truly beautiful. All of the dudes I talked to that were stationed there loved it.

As far as how many tails they have, and if they are taking new guys or not... I don't know.

[sputnik]

Is there an AD C-17 Base in Alaska? If so, is there a reason there hasn't been any drops to this location from UPT?

Not a dumb question, there is an active duty squadron that shares 8 tails with a guard squadron.

Last year the AF decided to open three new 17 bases (Elmo, Travis and Dover) just after conducting a long and very successful exodus of experienced C17 pilots through VSP. The solution was to not send anyone to Chucktown and McChord and to send huge numbers of Lts to all three bases. Now we're full up, won't start losing guys in any appreciable number for over a year.

So, at a guess I wouldn't expect to start seeing Elmo C17 drops till maybe late in 09. Kind of like how you didn't see any Hickam assignments for a while, but are starting to trickle down again now.

You never know what you never know, but we don't have any scheduled inbounds over the next year, and I don't expect that to change.

[Guest Safe&Clear]

This is almost totally unrelated to the thread, but I must interject: I am a career, old-school turboprop guy (C-27s, C-130s, C12s) with 5000 hrs and am currently working on my type-rating for the Boeing 737 so I can maybe work for you-know-who.

It's fvcking KILLING me. The automation, the sequences, and the endless programming of the "middle man" (ie the Flt Director/ Autopilot/ Autothrottles) are making me feel like a brand-new UPT student.

Tonight as I was floundering in the sim, I thought to myself, "I've seen this style of flying before". When sittting jumpseat in the C-17! Three times I've flown back into the states riding in that fine chair behind the pilots, once from South America and twice from Europe, enjoying the fantastic view that only the C-17 flight-deck offers, but flabbergasted by the way they controlled the aircraft. It was all "dialing" stuff into little windows, nodding to one-another, then chilling until time to dial again...

I guess my point is the C-17 is the only aircraft I've witnessed that prepares you for the automated world of the airlines. Y'all will be far more ready for the transition than this old dog.

Rant complete. I'm gonna finish my beer, kick myself in the A$$ a few more times, and start working on these "from memory" checklists again.

S&C

PS: If you wonder what I meant by that, here's the difference: The airlines want you to memorize ALL the checklists EXCEPT the Emergency Procedures (don't DARE do them from memory-- break out the book for those!) The exact opposite of the military. Go figure....

Edited September 13, 2008 by Safe&Clear

[The Kayla]

Last year the AF decided to open three new 17 bases (Elmo, Travis and Dover)

Please excuse my ignorence when it comes to this question:

I thought -17's were at Travis years ago? My husband was a C-5 FCC stationed at Travis (this is where we met!). I would have sworn that he told me that Travis had -5s, -10s, and -17s.. and this was... um... 5yrs ago... ???

[sputnik]

Please excuse my ignorence when it comes to this question:

I thought -17's were at Travis years ago? My husband was a C-5 FCC stationed at Travis (this is where we met!). I would have sworn that he told me that Travis had -5s, -10s, and -17s.. and this was... um... 5yrs ago... ???

No, Travis had only 5's and 10's. But as the west coast cargo hub nearly every westbound 17 mission through.

Last year one of the 5 squadrons (21st?) transitioned from Fred.

[sputnik]

Tonight as I was floundering in the sim, I thought to myself, "I've seen this style of flying before". When sittting jumpseat in the C-17! Three times I've flown back into the states riding in that fine chair behind the pilots, once from South America and twice from Europe, enjoying the fantastic view that only the C-17 flight-deck offers, but flabbergasted by the way they controlled the aircraft. It was all "dialing" stuff into little windows, nodding to one-another, then chilling until time to dial again...

I had a similar experience coming from Tweet to 17, I used to get so frustrated I'd almost want to cry.

But it's a two way street, I truly can't imagine flying without a HUD. Nor can I really believe it's possible to, say, roll out on a heading without the aid of a flight directer...

Learning a new plane will be a pain for me too.

You'll get used to it. It'll click, then you'll grow to appreciate it.

[zrooster99]

But it's a two way street, I truly can't imagine flying without a HUD. Nor can I really believe it's possible to, say, roll out on a heading without the aid of a flight directer...

Amen Brother, that's what scares me. In the mil I've flown the: T-6, T-1, and C-17... I do some GA flying, but I don't know how much that helps...

[JeepGuyC17]

Amen Brother, that's what scares me. In the mil I've flown the: T-6, T-1, and C-17... I do some GA flying, but I don't know how much that helps...

2 on that. If you stuck me back in a T-34 tomorrow and told me to fly a full procedure approach with some holding thrown in there for good measure, it would be an interesting sight indeed.

[WheelzUp]

2 on that. If you stuck me back in a T-34 tomorrow and told me to fly a full procedure approach with some holding thrown in there for good measure, it would be an interesting sight indeed.

Same feelings about flying the T-38C with the new avionics. When I upgraded from the simple ole' A-model, I thought it was rediculous how many useless toys the AF had glued into my jet. But now, teaching in the shiny "new" version, i can't imagine having to fly a REAL fix-to-fix with any precision, or having to navigate *gasp* tacan-to-tacan. Funny how everyone feels the same about this stuff, but honestly the part I think we may be forgetting is that airmanship and experience put most if not all of us in a positon to quickly adapt to whatever cockpit we are lucky enough to occupy.

[Dirtbag]

But if you proactively work with the schedulers (and with your schedule conflicts) you can work 300-400 a year. Operational airdrop in the 17 rocks.

Coming from a scheduler, if a new FP is proactively attempting to get on trips and missions, which I interpret as bugging the fvck out of me, they will soon find themselves getting the worst deals that can possibly be dished out. That being said, considering 10 day stage inputs are the majority of the TACC taskings, my threat doesn't really mean much; so what I'm saying is, don't annoy your scheduler. If they're worth their salt, they'll be working out some sort of game plan to spread whatever wealth exists, to include hours for training upgrades.

[jumangio]

Coming from a scheduler, if a new FP is proactively attempting to get on trips and missions, which I interpret as bugging the fvck out of me, they will soon find themselves getting the worst deals that can possibly be dished out. That being said, considering 10 day stage inputs are the majority of the TACC taskings, my threat doesn't really mean much; so what I'm saying is, don't annoy your scheduler. If they're worth their salt, they'll be working out some sort of game plan to spread whatever wealth exists, to include hours for training upgrades.

Ahh, the o'le wrath of the scheduler... I would say there is a fine line between harassing and massaging a scheduler. To be honest, I have never been above bribery (I'm not kidding). Actions like stopping by the scheduling desk at lunch and seeing what they want, or bringing them a beer at the end of the day, that’s what you want to do. Small things, for sure, but it will get you deference. That being said, if you are a douche bag, you can bring all the beer and still be classified a douche bag.

[Coasta]

Ahh, the o'le wrath of the scheduler... I would say there is a fine line between harassing and massaging a scheduler. To be honest, I have never been above bribery (I'm not kidding). Actions like stopping by the scheduling desk at lunch and seeing what they want, or bringing them a beer at the end of the day, that’s what you want to do. Small things, for sure, but it will get you deference. That being said, if you are a douche bag, you can bring all the beer and still be classified a douche bag.

So funny and so true! I was in charge of all the schedulers in my sq at McChord a few years back. I made sure THEY got their good deals when they were done with their desk shift. The bubbas who got the bad deals or never went west bound were the same ones who would be sitting at home playing Halo all day until the scheduler called them. If you put out (STS) in the squadron, or hung out at the squadron bar with the CC and I after duty hours, you could guarantee yourself some favortism with the schedulers. Yes, if you were a douchbag, you'd guarantee yourself a 21-day trip to the Deid. Hopefully, we're still taking care of the boyz and not gaying it up by making everything fair and equal. Definitely reward the one who puts out (STS).

[Dirtbag]

That being said, if you are a douche bag, you can bring all the beer and still be classified a douche bag.

So funny and so true! I was in charge of all the schedulers in my sq at McChord a few years back. I made sure THEY got their good deals when they were done with their desk shift. The bubbas who got the bad deals or never went west bound were the same ones who would be sitting at home playing Halo all day until the scheduler called them. If you put out (STS) in the squadron, or hung out at the squadron bar with the CC and I after duty hours, you could guarantee yourself some favortism with the schedulers. Yes, if you were a douchbag, you'd guarantee yourself a 21-day trip to the Deid. Hopefully, we're still taking care of the boyz and not gaying it up by making everything fair and equal. Definitely reward the one who puts out (STS).

Before I derail and hijack the thread... maybe it's too late, but both points are ABSOLUTELY TRUE! The worst culprits are those jokers who think we intentionally are out to screw them and only look out for ourselves. (If you think we're out to get you, you should probably seek introspection and figure out what you did wrong before blaming the guy administering payback) What's even worse is when other pilots think it's alright to tell me how to do my job as if I haven't exhausted all other options prior to making them do their job, which is to fly. I'll concede we do get a bout of the selfish scheduler, but typically those folks are put back in check by the others and the behavior is corrected immediately. What's the moral of the story? Do your job, check you currencies, don't annoy your scheduler and don't be an a**hole or you will be dealt with?

**Now, I'm done acting like I know what I'm talking about**

[ChkHandleDn]

Anybody have any specific info on KWRI missions? I heard they only do airland and not airdrop. Is this true? Also, where are the trips usually for KWRI guys? Same places as all the rest?

[CHS17]

Airland only (unless you're there for WIC). Trips go the same place everyone else does, no special missions that I know of. I just heard a rumor that their next deployment will be to Incirlik. Take it for what it's worth

[capt4fans]

So funny and so true! I was in charge of all the schedulers in my sq at McChord a few years back. I made sure THEY got their good deals when they were done with their desk shift. The bubbas who got the bad deals or never went west bound were the same ones who would be sitting at home playing Halo all day until the scheduler called them. If you put out (STS) in the squadron, or hung out at the squadron bar with the CC and I after duty hours, you could guarantee yourself some favortism with the schedulers. Yes, if you were a douchbag, you'd guarantee yourself a 21-day trip to the Deid. Hopefully, we're still taking care of the boyz and not gaying it up by making everything fair and equal. Definitely reward the one who puts out (STS).

Since when did flyers (read non-fighter types) start having to use the STS? It's about as gay as the day is long, and last I remembered from my previous airframe, was reserved for Weapons weenies who couldn't help but laugh every time someone said "69", or "put out."