Respect after graduation

[Guest sabini]

After graduating UPT, all the IPs started to treat newly-graduated studs differently... as in, like adults. I thought this was part of a trend towards getting just a few props for running the gauntlet, but as I progress through the schoolhouse it has become apparent that the UPT-type IP/stud mentality is the modus operandi. I'm not looking to be considered a peer with dudes who have been flying the jet for 1000 hours, but just a little credit for not being a dumbass would be nice.

Rather than make this thread just about me, what are everyone elses' experiences with finally being accepted into the brotherhood as a wing/co/scheduling b*tch. How did you overcome as a young pup and get to be part of the club? First deployent with the bros? naming? showing that you can pull some skirt?

shutting up and coloring. embracing the suck.

-sabini

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

First way to earn credibility is to not whine like a ...Second, you and any one else who is "bothered" by this need to find another profession and STFU.

Dude, you "graduated" UPT - that's all. Sure, it was a big accomplishment, but guess what, you still don't know shit about flying. You only scraped the barrel. What makes YOU think that YOU are not a dumbass...

Do you think the schoolhouse IP "club" are just a bunch of grab ass folks....NO...they have BTDT, got the T-Shirt, and you....only graduated UPT and were selected to fly the respective plane. You haven't accomplished anything in their eyes.

"Some folks who are Tools don't know that they are Tools until later in life...."

-Anonymous

Edited April 18, 2008 by C-21 Pilot

[FireMission]

No matter how far you get in career progression there will always be the people you look up to (and are not accepted as part of yet). Think about it.....

As a cadet you looked up to those that got commissioned. As a butter bar you looked up to those that had already started UPT.... then to those that got to wear flight suits instead of blues... eventually those that had earned their wings.

Once you had wings you looked up to those that had were already in the FTU ahead of you and eventually those that finished the FTU before.

From there the dude that you aspire to be will be the one that has more deployments/hours than you. Then eventually the STAN/EVAL dudes or something like that, etc.

BL: You just have to start by getting accepted into your peer group. Your rep will follow and precede you.

[Toasty]

Even as the new guy to the squadron, you DO have something to prove. Those that have been deploying look at you as the green new guy that doesn't know anything, and it will remain that way until proven otherwise. That being said, until you have MWS experience, you will probably continue to be treated like you don't know anything (because you don't). But once you're finished the FTU...

Like said above, shut up and never, even whine. Its really annoying to listen to someone in our field go on and on about how much their job sucks.

Study, study, study. Being the best copilot/wingman you can be will earn you alot of ground and get your name around the squadron.

Don't ever tell anyone how good you are/were. If you really are, they'll know.

[ClearedHot]

First way to earn credibility is to not whine like a pussy...Second, you and any one else who is "bothered" by this need to find another profession and STFU.

Dude, you "graduated" UPT - that's all. Sure, it was a big accomplishment, but guess what, you still don't know shit about flying. You only scraped the barrel. What makes YOU think that YOU are not a dumbass...

Do you think the schoolhouse IP "club" are just a bunch of grab ass folks....NO...they have BTDT, got the T-Shirt, and you....only graduated UPT and were selected to fly the respective plane. You haven't accomplished anything in their eyes.

"Some folks who are Tools don't know that they are Tools until later in life...."

-Anonymous

How about you just STFU and not speak unless spoken to...or if you need to bark out "Two", "Bingo", "Leads on Fire", "I'll take the fat one", or "This round is on me".

In all seriousness dude, in my experience, the fastest way to acceptance and thus upgrades, is to keep your pie-hole shut and stay in the books. The guys that impress me are the ones who don't make excuses, fess up when they make a mistake (I still make them on every flight), and apply lessons from their mistakes.

One common trap that I saw a lot of young dudes fall into (except the really good ones), was what I called the "sigh factor". I would see dudes and dudettes who had been in school forever...elementary school, high school, college, UPT, survival & RTU...when they finally get MR checked out, they let out a big sigh and want to relax. They had passed all of the hurdles and for the first time in a long time they could take a breath. Then they would realize they are living in Destin with a great beach and tons of girls and crap to do. No longer being forced to study, they wouldn't. Six months after a dude became MR, I would give them a no-notice and Bam...most had forgotten at least 50% of what the learned going through RTU. Don't fall into that trap.

The "acceptance" you mention will also happen after you go on your first deployment. You work hard and play hard and usually end up living in tight quarters. People will truly know what type of dude you are....good dude, good pilot, hard worker = acceptance. Asshat, hamfist, sherker = every Friday night line from here to eternity.

[Guest sabini]

Dayam, those are some strong responses. Points taken, all of them, and hopefully internalized and followed thus far.

You guys have all been there though, was there some moment when you're no longer getting sh*t on? Is it just a matter of some other guy taking your place as FNG #5? I'm not trying to whine - I'm sure you'll let me know if I am - three years in and always being the "STFU and color" guy with no end in sight prompted me to try here for some collective wisdom.

Thanks for the words.

[Guest ATB]

Dudes....

This thread should be pinned.

That's some damn good advice!

[HerkDerka]

You guys have all been there though, was there some moment when you're no longer getting sh*t on?

There are several instances where you will notice people are no longer looking at you as a green LT:

-Deployment under your belt

-Upgrade complete

-Not your first assignment in the MWS

-Pinning on Capt

That's a short list. Remember, in UPT you learned how to keep an airplane from crashing into the ground. In FTU, you learned the basic combat application of an MWS. There is still a lot to learn before you are looked at with respect by those already established in the MWS. The quickest way to end the act is to know your place, study, understand that there are things you don't know, and never pass up the opportunity to keep your mouth shut. The flying world is a good ole boys network. The more people like you, the easier life will be.

If all else fails, use the advice I was given as a young LT: "Welcome to the squadron. Keep your mouth shut for a year. After that year is up, when you think you have something to say, wait another six months."

HD

[FourFans]

Another perspective:

It's all perspective. You need to realize that unless you're happy where you are, you'll never be happy where you are. If you can learn to be content to be constantly studying and continually trying to get better at your job, you'll finally figure it out. CH was nuts on about the sigh factor. If you're trying to figure out when you can take a breath and look at some other guy as the new guy, you're aimpoint is way off. This ain't about other dudes. Shift your focus. Instead of wondering when you'll no longer be the new guy, ask yourself what you can do better. Introspection is the key. If you focus on your job and keeping your attitude positive and focusing on how you can serve your squadron, somewhere a few years down the road you might notice out of your peripheral vision that other people are looking at you as an example, and that some young LT is asking you for advice on how to be better at his job. Does that mean you're no longer the new guy? Sure. But that's not the point. The point is there will always be stuff you can do better, only now you have to take care of that young new guy too. It's all perspective.

If your desire is to be "in the accepted group" your aimpoint is off. There are 1 million "accepted groups" in every squadron. Shift your aimpoint. Focus on getting better at your job. Focus on what you can do for the squadron and for your squadron mates, not how soon they'll think you're cool.

Good luck and stay in the books.

Cheers,

FourFans

[DigDug]

[soapbox]

Ahhh.. another great example of the "Entitlement Generation" (look it up, or as the E-Gen would say "Google it")

Lots of these kids have been catered to their entire upbringing...

Welcome to a society (USAF flying community) where you're not longer entitled to ANYTHING.... YOU HAVE TO EARN IT!!!

Just a word of advice, please don't share your "concerns" with those in your squadron - It'll follow you around for a long time.

[/soapbox]

Holy crap - I'm getting old!!!!!

[Duck]

[soapbox]

...you're not longer entitled to ANYTHING.... YOU HAVE TO EARN IT!!!

[/soapbox]

Now if only some AF medals worked the same way!

[Danny Noonin]

No dude. Wings are not enough.

You are still a student, so you are getting treated like a student, wings or not. You ARE still a dumbass. You have wings, but you don't know much of anything about employing your new MWS whether you think so or not. If you do not recognize that you are currently a dumbass, you will never stop being one.

Next you will be in MQT, so you will be treated like a dude who is not MR and hasn't done anything yet.

Next you will be a wingman or a co-pilot, so you will be treated like a wingman or a co-pilot who knows some stuff, but has a long way to go. And you are not in charge, so never think that you are.

Then comes flight lead, IP, SEFE, maybe weapons officer.

The staircase is steep. There is always another step.

Until you EARN respect, you won't get treated like a member of "the club," whatever that is. The reason this job is fun is because it is challenging. Step up to the challenge and grow some thick skin. You will end up being a bro when you earn that right, but you will never stop getting shit on when you fck up. Right now, you fck up a lot. If you don't recognize that, you need to re-assess your attitude. Eventually, you will be smarter and more experienced and fck up less. Then you will get shit on less. If you cannot take shit, you will never make it in this job. The trick is to realize that it isn't personal. Dudes are just trying to make you better. If you take it personally or need a hug after a debrief, go join a sorority. But the day we stop shitting on each other when we fck up, is the day that we have given up and accepted mediocrity.

[Guest SATCOM]

Don't ever tell anyone how good you are/were. If you really are, they'll know.

On Friday, I had the pleasure of attending the groundbreaking at our new Combat Control School at Pope AFB. While touring the buildings, I spent a long time in front of a new wall that had all of the Silver Stars awarded to CCT's since 1953. You've undoubtedly seen the type, large frame with the citation and a picture of the recipient. Five of the recent recipients from OIF/OEF were on the wall. An older (68-ish) gentleman with the aire of Quiet Professionalism joined me and mentioned that most of his team was on the wall, and he read them with me. Didn't say a word about himself.....then silently walked to another display. Few minutes later, one of my squadron mates ran up to me and said "Did you see Chief Howell over there?" I admitted that I had not, then went around the corner to the new section at the school, detailing the FIRST person to eject supersonic from a jet. Technical Sergeant James Howell ejected safely from an F-106B piloted by Major James Hendrix on June 6, 1961.

You'll run into these kind of people in the flying/ops community all the time. Listen and LEARN. Don't toot your horn.....

[Toro]

You ARE still a dumbass...If you do not recognize that you are currently a dumbass, you will never stop being one...And you are not in charge, so never think that you are...Right now, you fck up a lot...Eventually, you will be smarter and more experienced and fck up less...If you take it personally or need a hug after a debrief, go join a sorority.

If I didn't know him personally, I would think that T-Bone was Rainman with a new login name.

Harumph.

[LJ Driver]

First way to earn credibility is to not whine like a pussy...Second, you and any one else who is "bothered" by this need to find another profession and STFU.

Dude, you "graduated" UPT - that's all. Sure, it was a big accomplishment, but guess what, you still don't know shit about flying. You only scraped the barrel. What makes YOU think that YOU are not a dumbass...

This is gold baby, pure gold. And very true.

[PET-Shot]

It's probably going to be rough for you if you are expecting "better treatment". You have earned your wings - Great - but you are not qualified in any MWS. And as far as most are concerned, you are still in "student status". Soon you will be off to your FTU schoolhouse for a while, and probably a few other schools as well. Then, when you finally get assigned to your unit, you will be THE NEW GUY. There, your job will be to continue to learn and get better at what you do. Eventually, down the road, after some deployments and gained experience, you might find yourself a part of "the club". Nothing is written in stone. Everyone's experience with "the club" is different.

Edited April 21, 2008 by PET-Shot

[sputnik]

Ah, did a sim with a new guy the other day, had a few months in the squadron. He was actually pretty good, but ruined it with "well my technique..." Dude STFU, you haven't flown long enough to have techniques, much less share them. I think he mentioned his flights to Afghanistan around 30-40 times as well.

That's an idea of what not to do when you show up somewhere.

I've been flying for years, I'm still a student. You always learn. No idea which MWS you're going to but if you stop and think about it, you're probably treated a whole lot better than UPT. Your instructors have enough respect for you to sit down and tell you what to do, what you f'ed up, and how not to f it up again. If they wasted time being nice, etc, they'd be wasting your time and the govt's money and ultimately giving you less instruction than you need.

[pbar]

Until you EARN respect, you won't get treated like a member of "the club," whatever that is. The reason this job is fun is because it is challenging. Step up to the challenge and grow some thick skin. You will end up being a bro when you earn that right, but you will never stop getting shit on when you fck up. Right now, you fck up a lot. If you don't recognize that, you need to re-assess your attitude. Eventually, you will be smarter and more experienced and fck up less. Then you will get shit on less. If you cannot take shit, you will never make it in this job. The trick is to realize that it isn't personal. Dudes are just trying to make you better. If you take it personally or need a hug after a debrief, go join a sorority. But the day we stop shitting on each other when we fck up, is the day that we have given up and accepted mediocrity.

Well said...that is why we are the best AF in the world. We go into debrief and call a spade a spade and tell an O-6 he screwed during the flight without the sugar coating. I was having a conversation with a Korean AF Weapon Schools grad (their WS, not ours) and our USAF exchange professor here (I'm an exchange student at the ROKAF ACSC) and we were comparing instructional techniques. The way they teach is strictly one-way lecturing with the stud just sitting and listening and absorbing. The instructors don't ask questions two-way interplay style to provoke the students to think. He told us that he would feed the students a little bit of info/his techniques at a time so that they could fully memorize it/absorb it. He said his goal was to have his students be as good as him. We in turn told him we want our students to be better than us as we might have to fly in combat with them someday (my first combat sortie was with my FTU instructor). That's why we challenge them with questions during instruction so everyone can learn (including the instructor). Also, I can find out how much he knows/doesn't know and adjust my instruction accordingly. He was dumbfounded and came back a few minutes later and told us he realized he'd been doing it all wrong for the last three years and wish someone had told him this sooner. My Korean classmates are incredulous when I tell them that even the Wing CC can get beat down in a debrief. Never happens like that in their AF (nor according, to my fellow foreign exchange students, in the Japanese, Taiwanese, Brazilian, or Turkish AF...)

PBAR