Does an MRE count against a missed meal?

[Gas Man]

I just had a missed meal sheet turned down by finance because they said I could have had an MRE. I had the sheet signed and all of the paperwork in order. Those bastards! I tried to find the reg but couldn't. I guess if that's the case, they could just use the MRE excuse from now on. I guess a 13 hr day of flying doesn't have the same perks it used to.

[Finance_Guy]

I guess a 13 hr day of flying doesn't have the same perks it used to.

Really depends on where you are--I suspect in a Combat Zone AOR. If in CENTAF AOR, only the Installation commander can authorize missed meals. If you spent 13 hours flying, did you fly into the Jetson's Burger King and purchase a meal. I would also say that if you were flying, that day is treated as a travel day and you get full per diem of your location at 2400 hrs...unless traveling in the CENTAF AOR between locations where the meal rates are the same.

The purpose of Per diem is to reimburse members for meal expenses required while away from the permanent duty station. People should not expect a windfall of money for merely missing a meal unless you had to purchase one from commercial sources. Per diem is not compensation for the inconvenience of not being able to eat.

If MREs were available, then how could you have missed a meal? MREs are deductible meals and must be claimed as such when available whether consumed or not.

[Gas Man]

Thanks for the answer finance guy....I guess. Not exactly what I wanted to hear. I was actually looking for the reg that stated as such. I understand what you had to say and had it been explained to me that way it wouldn't have pissed me off so much in the first place.

[Finance_Guy]

Thanks for the answer finance guy....I guess. Not exactly what I wanted to hear. I was actually looking for the reg that stated as such.

I could quote a reg if I had more specifics of your scenario. I would have to say it's in the JFTR somewhere. Pretty hard to give a specific answer without knowing the exact situation, like, where you traveling in the AOR. Or, during the 13 hrs of flying where were you at 2400.

[Fozzy Bear]

Gas Man, sounds like you were in an exercise or something, and we've been told in the last couple I did that we weren't eligible if there were MREs available.

[Gas Man]

I was at the Died. I have since talked to our finance people and after having it explained a little better I now understand why I wasn't paid for missed meals. You can't blame a guy for trying can ya?

[Skitzo]

Couldn't make it to the scarf and barf? Excuse me I mean the flight kitchen. The smell of that place led me to lose around 20 lbs, thank goodness I gained them all back.

[Finance_Guy]

I was at the Died. I have since talked to our finance people and after having it explained a little better I now understand why I wasn't paid for missed meals. You can't blame a guy for trying can ya?

Makes sense now. Yeah, finance apparently found your paperwork wasn't signed by the installation commander, so it was not in order as you said. The CENTAF/CC put out a policy that any missed meal in the CENTAF AOR must be approved by the Installation CC. This applies to those locations where meals are available and directed at no cost to the member.

Hard to see how you could miss a meal with 24/7 DFAC and GrabnGo. I've been on Jingle missions out of the Died and made sure I took some grub with me since I didn't know when I'd get to a DFAC next. I also remember seeing a few cases of MREs in the cargo bay...just in case you get real hungry.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Finance_Guy

[Finance_Guy]

MRE's and box lunches arent considered govt mess, but the AOR leadership can exclude the rule. In general, dont expect a lot from being in the AOR.

The JFTR is a pretty easy read, and good to know in a lot of unique cases to help people out.

Appears some are confused. MREs are government mess. Show me the JFTR quote that says otherwise. You have to focus in on "deductible Meals". Many get this confursed. Deductible meals means you have to report them whenever provided at no cost by the Govt (all are at no cost at the Died). Box meals are deductible/available meals when not consumed in the air. So those on the ground have to report any box meal they get from the Flight Kitchen as a Govt meal. The JFTR was changed back in the 90s to exempt box meals in the air since the AMC/CC was concerned that aircrew were not getting the meals for nutrition since their per diem was reduced. So the answer was to not deduct them from per diem. So the result was the aircrew received a govt meal (whether paying cash or not) and still received full per diem. IMO, it was all about the money and nothing to do with ensuring aircrew were eating properly.

Bottom line, MREs and Box Lunches are Govt Mess. MREs are always deductible meals when provided at no cost and when at cost, are considered available mess. Next time your are on an IGX, tell me MREs don't count as government mess. Or ask your local Services folks.

[Finance_Guy]

I could still be wrong but here you go. I dont see anything about air or ground. I've had some really interesting commanders, and a few made us pay for our MRE's during exercises, though most didn't. I've only had one free box lunch on a mission, and it wasn't worth the price. (If you dont pay it is deductable).

Also, if you can't claim an MRE if:

U4163 ESSENTIAL UNIT MESSING (EUM)

There is no authorization for the meal portion of the M&IE allowance when the Secretary concerned, or for a JTF

the Combatant/JTF Commander, determines that Government messing is essential to accomplish training and

readiness.

Again, I could be wrong, but it is more helpful if you tell me what you are referencing. I've always been interested in the question myself.

There is mention in the JFTR. Go to U4145.C PER DIEM COMPUTATION and you will see this.

C. M&IE Payment. The M&IE rate is payable to the member without expense itemization and without receipts.

Box lunches, in-flight meals and rations furnished by the Government on military aircraft are not a Government

mess for per diem computation purposes. NOTE: See par. U4800-E for a member on TDY within a Combatant

Command or Joint Task Force Area of Operations.

You are right that meals can only be deducted if provided at no cost. The paragraph above stipulates that even if provided at no cost on aircraft, they are not considered government mess. This paragraph is not a blanket statement that box lunches and MREs are not available govt mess, only while provided in aircraft.

Now if provided while not on an aircraft, then it would be deductible and considered an available govt mess. This normally isn't an issue since while on a government aircraft that is also a travel day and all Govt Meals are considered unavailable. The only exception to that is while traveling in the same AOR (U4800-E reference).

IF filing in DTS, the rules are different. If any meal is provide at no cost on a interim travel day, then that meal must be reported in DTS as a "Provided Meal".

This could apply if flying from Qatar to Ramstein. In the morning before leaving Qatar you ate at the DFAC (free). Even though a travel day (most were used to full travel day per diem) , you would get Proportional Per Diem (PPD) for traveling to Ramstein. This is in the JFTR Appendix O which governs those being paid using DTS.

Clear as mud now, Huh?

[sputnik]

Thread revival.

First off, yes this is a money grubbing aircrew question, specifically posted in hopes of benefiting my money grubbing crew, and the rest of my squadron. Slam our greed at will, but understand I already know it.

Deployed to Incirlik in support of an AMC squadron. AMC guys get 3.50 a day except for the days they fly. In which case they get a full days per diem. I'm from PACAF, our finance has long maintained AMC is wrong, and our crews get 3.50 a day fly or not.

Reading the cut and paste selections from JFTR, I'm happy to admit I'm not smart enough to understand it. So is my finance right or wrong?

Adding to my confusion, they state that while we cannot get per diem for the days we fly we can file missed meals. Which financially works out about the same, but I still think our finance is full of shit.

Unfortunately I thus far have no way of proving it.

Help?

[Guest Hueypilot812]

We fought a battle similar to this in theater. MNSTC-I was telling us they would not provide us per diem if we flew an out-of-country (ie, outside Iraq) mission because "MREs are available". Problem is, if we break for a week or two, how are we to know whether to bring a whole case of MREs or not? And say we break in Amman or Dubai...is it really fair to force the crew to absorb the cost of feeding ourselves because "MREs are available"? The answer was no, we aren't responsible.

As stated, MRE and crew meals are only deductible meals if they are the only means of feeding you. If there are commercial establishments or a real government mess available, they are supposed to give you per diem or missed meals. We went back and forth with this last summer and finally came out on top when we asked if their version passed the common sense test, and it didn't.

[Guest Form 8]

Couldn't make it to the scarf and barf? Excuse me I mean the flight kitchen. The smell of that place led me to lose around 20 lbs, thank goodness I gained them all back.

If you think that place smells you've never been to the Ops Town chall tent at Manas.

[ellsworb]

If you think that place smells you've never been to the Ops Town chall tent at Manas.

would endure worse for that chili though.

[Finance_Guy]

Thread revival.

First off, yes this is a money grubbing aircrew question, specifically posted in hopes of benefiting my money grubbing crew, and the rest of my squadron. Slam our greed at will, but understand I already know it.

Deployed to Incirlik in support of an AMC squadron. AMC guys get 3.50 a day except for the days they fly. In which case they get a full days per diem. I'm from PACAF, our finance has long maintained AMC is wrong, and our crews get 3.50 a day fly or not.

Reading the cut and paste selections from JFTR, I'm happy to admit I'm not smart enough to understand it. So is my finance right or wrong?

Adding to my confusion, they state that while we cannot get per diem for the days we fly we can file missed meals. Which financially works out about the same, but I still think our finance is full of shit.

Unfortunately I thus far have no way of proving it.

Help?

If you were in the CENTCOM AOR and fly around to locations that had the same meal rate of $3.50, then those travel days are $3.50-0-that's specifically addressed in the JFTR.

However, Incirlik is not in the CENTCOM AOR but rather EUCOM. So anytime you fly out of Incirlik it's a travel day period. You will get the 100% per diem of the next location you are going...if that's IRAQ then you get about $11/day. But most fly out and backs and are not normally in theater at 2400 so in that case they get 100% of Incirlik's rate.

Trust me I've posed the same argument that PACAF is trying to tell you and have been told a travel day is a travel day except for those all within the CENTCOM AOR.

Have your PACAF finance folks run the scenario up to HQ and AF/A1 to get an interpretation and I'll bet they will find the 100% per diem is correct. I can also bet they cannot show you in the JFTR where you are only due $3.50.

[sputnik]

+Trust me I've posed the same argument that PACAF is trying to tell you and have been told a travel day is a travel day except for those all within the CENTCOM AOR.

Have your PACAF finance folks run the scenario up to HQ and AF/A1 to get an interpretation and I'll bet they will find the 100% per diem is correct. I can also bet they cannot show you in the JFTR where you are only due $3.50.

Thanks for that. Pushing my luck, can you point out where in JFTR it shows per diem on travel days?

[Finance_Guy]

Thanks for that. Pushing my luck, can you point out where in JFTR it shows per diem on travel days?

Along with the JFTR para in the attached is the clarification. Can't get much clearer than that.

SYNOPSIS: Clarifies that the GMR and the $3.50 incidental rate do not apply on days that the member/employee is traveling into/out of an AOR.

To me, a flight from Incirlik to Iraq/Kuwait/Qatar would be out of EUCOM AOR and into CENTCOM AOR. So you are hitting both points and therefore must not be paid $3.50.

MAP137_08_Per_Diem_While_Traveling.doc

[Guest Boozshey]

So as mentioned above about the AOR, how would the situation work for non-flyers.

Our shifts are 0700-1500, 1500-2300, and 2300-0700. The shifts make us miss at least 1 meal a day due to the hours of the DFAC. There is only 1 of us at the location and there is no possibility of leaving to go get a to go box or to eat during that missed meal. We have been instructed to get a to-go box during the meal prior, but it seems to me and as stated above, that eating 2 of one meal doesn't suffice the standard.

However being in the AOR, someone said there is a policy letter that the installation/CC has to sign off on missed meals... Well 179+ days of a technically missed meal, adds up pretty well in my book.

Help/clarification please?

[sputnik]

Along with the JFTR para in the attached is the clarification. Can't get much clearer than that.

SYNOPSIS: Clarifies that the GMR and the $3.50 incidental rate do not apply on days that the member/employee is traveling into/out of an AOR.

To me, a flight from Incirlik to Iraq/Kuwait/Qatar would be out of EUCOM AOR and into CENTCOM AOR. So you are hitting both points and therefore must not be paid $3.50.

I was curious to see how they'd handle it. Came back at 3.50 a day. I just sent them a question and attached that document to it, we'll see what comes back.

With paper vouchers going to Ellsworth I was curious if it would happen, I had been thinking it was an Elmendorf thing but apparently not.

I'll let you know their response.

I (along with rest of crew dogs) appreciate the help.

[sputnik]

Along with the JFTR para in the attached is the clarification. Can't get much clearer than that.

...

To me, a flight from Incirlik to Iraq/Kuwait/Qatar would be out of EUCOM AOR and into CENTCOM AOR. So you are hitting both points and therefore must not be paid $3.50.

With complete humility I take back any and everything bad I've ever said about finance.

It worked.

Thanks