?s on ADSC (Active Duty Service Commitment)

[nsplayr]

I answered your question in the thread that got deleted. BL: yes.

Why was the answer not transferred to this thread as well during the clean up?

[ViperStud]

Interesting one here - so I am a free agent, my debts to society paid in full. UPT and PCS ADSC expired, PIT ADSC was wiped out by MPF, reference the past two pages. So I apply for separation and the MPF professional informs me that I show AAC 50 for a 3-year controlled AETC tour, and I haven't been here 3 years. Their interpretation of that controlled tour is that, although not an ADSC, it commits me here for a full 3 years. I've researched the regs (assignments reg, stabilized tour guide) and they are in my favor (it's a max controlled tour, not a min, plus no mention of it preventing retirements or separations, just a PCS). However, said MPF professional entertained me with several stories (WOMs) of people who were held up by this.

Anyone out there have to fight this battle before? Was it as easy as showing them their own regs and watching their brains explode or was it more painful? What was the result? I've got a job on the outside lined up with a start date that I need to make; it happens to be before the expiration of my max controlled tour (interpreted by MPF as a min controlled tour). Thanks in advance for any war stories.

[stract]

If you're on terminal by your new job's start date, that should still work out (assuming that the interpretation of regs doesn't go your way). Hopefully you have a lot of leave saved up, and it's enough to cover the difference between when you begin terminal and your DOS.

[ViperStud]

Plenty of leave, but my job is full-time with the ANG, that was nebulous in my first post. Can't be on terminal and in the guard. I plan on my choking being subtle - simple email stating that MPF isn't reading their own rules correctly but I am gracious enough to explain their own regs to them. I'll have to find my sarcasm switch and turn it off. If I can do that I think I'll be fine. God forbid you call someone out for not knowing their job.

[matmacwc]

BS, if your CC is worth his weight in gold, he would help you.

[Homestar]

Sq/CC to Sq/CC phone call is in order here I think.

[SPiF]

Interesting one here - so I am a free agent, my debts to society paid in full. UPT and PCS ADSC expired, PIT ADSC was wiped out by MPF, reference the past two pages. So I apply for separation and the MPF professional informs me that I show AAC 50 for a 3-year controlled AETC tour, and I haven't been here 3 years. Their interpretation of that controlled tour is that, although not an ADSC, it commits me here for a full 3 years. I've researched the regs (assignments reg, stabilized tour guide) and they are in my favor (it's a max controlled tour, not a min, plus no mention of it preventing retirements or separations, just a PCS). However, said MPF professional entertained me with several stories (WOMs) of people who were held up by this.

Anyone out there have to fight this battle before? Was it as easy as showing them their own regs and watching their brains explode or was it more painful? What was the result? I've got a job on the outside lined up with a start date that I need to make; it happens to be before the expiration of my max controlled tour (interpreted by MPF as a min controlled tour). Thanks in advance for any war stories.

Was on a 4-year controlled tour, AAC 50. Applied for and was approved for a full separation that would have me out by the 2.5 year mark as I don't have any ADSCs. CC approved, WG/CC approved, and I never asked MPF for their opinion on the matter. Cleared without issue from AFPC. The AAC only means that you have to get approval to PCS (and in some cases PCA) before that time is up, saw a few folks who ran into that problem.

[Motofalcon]

Here's my situation: T-6 FAIP, now flying vipers, just got an assignment to teach T-38 PIT at Randolph. I owe two more years on my UPT ADSC (expires June 2017). Asked about the reg, specifically note 1b, and they said that doesn't apply, but note 1c does, since I am switching airframes (from F-16 to T-38). They say I have two options:

1) Take the 3 year PIT ADSC, so my commitment date moves to the right by about a year (July 2018)

2) Try to accept the assignment without taking the 3 year ADSC, which will make me set my date of separation to June 2017 (end of UPT commitment) AND I may get a different assignment if the porch decides they won't send me to PIT without getting the full 3 years out of it.

It basically seems like note 1a and 1b are 100% contradictory to each other, and AFPC gets to pick and choose which one they want to follow. The setting of date of separation was a big surprise to me - I don't necessarily want to get out in 2017, but I want the option...

Any thoughts?

[Learjetter]

Assuming you can prove you've already qualified in the -38 (UPT form 8?/ AFORMS printout?), you might try arguing you're not getting a basic qual in -38, but an instructor qual, therefore the 1c note about crossflow basic qual doesn't apply, and you're back to note 1b applying.

[HeloDude]

Here's my situation: T-6 FAIP, now flying vipers, just got an assignment to teach T-38 PIT at Randolph. I owe two more years on my UPT ADSC (expires June 2017). Asked about the reg, specifically note 1b, and they said that doesn't apply, but note 1c does, since I am switching airframes (from F-16 to T-38). They say I have two options:

1) Take the 3 year PIT ADSC, so my commitment date moves to the right by about a year (July 2018)

2) Try to accept the assignment without taking the 3 year ADSC, which will make me set my date of separation to June 2017 (end of UPT commitment) AND I may get a different assignment if the porch decides they won't send me to PIT without getting the full 3 years out of it.

It basically seems like note 1a and 1b are 100% contradictory to each other, and AFPC gets to pick and choose which one they want to follow. The setting of date of separation was a big surprise to me - I don't necessarily want to get out in 2017, but I want the option...

Any thoughts?

I'm pretty sure you can decline the assignment if you do not have retainability for the required ADSC, unless they want to waive/reduce the commitment to be concurrent with your original commitment.

[ViperStud]

I signed the ADSC several years ago then when I was at my white jet tour I called AFSC and asked them to create a CMS case to remove the ADSC once I found out about this. It took 2 days and my ADSC was reset at UPT expiration. They were very familiar and the dudes I know that called had 100% PK.

[Nineline]

Thread revival:

I recently got an assignment to PCS this summer to be a T-6 IP. I never flew the T-6 in UPT, but my UPT commitment is long since up and I've been logging "continuous rated service" since UPT. Based upon the gouge found earlier in this thread, I referenced AFI 36-2107 table 1.1, note 1b when I was told I had to sign a 3 yr ADSC for advanced flying training via CMS.

Fast forward a week and this is AFPC's response:

"Response Via Email(myPers - Total Force Service Center)

Sir,
Thank you for giving us the time to answer your question. we have reviewed your record and note 1b is not applicable, however note 1c is applicable as quoted below,

"c. Rated officers who crossflow/retrain into another rated career field (e.g., an air battle manager who crossflows/retrains as a navigator or manned or unmanned pilot), crossflow/retrain to a different weapons system (basic qualification) or aircraft airframe will incur the full ADSC for that training even if that ADSC extends beyond the officers 6th or 10th year of rated service."

We did not find any prior training for the T-6, therefore this initial qualification training is applicable. Please see the below link to sign the form and return to our office. If you have any questions or concerns, please reply to this message. Thank you.

Please visit our "Advanced Flying Training" web page to accomplish this."

Can anyone here explain why note 1b conveniently doesn't apply in my case? And any recommendations on how I should proceed?

It seems to me that AFPC is very good at interpreting the AFI's through lenses that justify their position while blindly ignoring other sections that don't.

-9-

Edited April 15, 2015 by Nineline

[nunya]

1c overrides 1b, like Motofalcon found out above. The reg could have been written better by a 6th grader, but I don't think you have much leg to stand on unfortunately.

Seems like you have a couple options.

Take the T-6. You might even like it.

Refuse the ADSC and see what they do. Probably won't be anything appealing.

Try to swap it for a T-1 or T-38, whichever you flew, so you're not going to a "new" airframe. (Hopefully you weren't a T-44 guy.)

Good luck.

[Jaded]

Never accept the first answer you get from a support agency.

[Hermey]

Take the T-6. You might even like it.

Try to swap it for a T-1 or T-38, whichever you flew, so you're not going to a "new" airframe. (Hopefully you weren't a T-44 guy.)

One of these...or argue the T-37/T-34 you flew was replaced by the T-6 so they should consider waiving the prior training experience.

Never accept the first answer you get from a support agency.

If you ask 3 different support clerks, even in the same office, you'll probably get 3 different answers...find the answer you like

[ThreeHoler]

Unless you were qualified (passed a Form 8 checkride) in the aircraft, it is initial qualification. Since you never flew the T-6 note 1c applies and 1b doesn't.

[Jaded]

I never got a form 8 in the 38. Does 1c apply to me if I get IFF next?

The reg is written that way to prevent people from doing a b course and bailing. Giving you an extra ADSC because your phase 2 aircraft doesn't exist anymore is quibbling. If the air force wants to use technicalities to keep pilots in the force, it's going to lose more from bad faith than it's going to keep with narrow interpretations.

[AA]

IFF is in-house upgrade and you buy a 24 Month ADSC.

PIT is a 36 month ADSC upon graduation.

Its all in the AFI buried away so you need to hire a lawyer to figure it out.

[ViperStud]

We still went 3/3 getting ADSCs curtailed in the T-38 less than a year ago. Option 4: take the assignment and when at said white jet base, call the AFPC ADSC office and have them get rid of it. Sure, it's ball walking and the possibility remains that it could be a fight, but it keeps you from having to show cards now and give management a reason to pull the assignment. I had only flown he Viper before, so it was the first time I was "qualified" in the 38 as well, still a clean kill to them at the time. Maybe they really are queening out over the T-37 vs T-6 thing. F that.

[SnapLock]

Thread revival:

I recently got an assignment to PCS this summer to be a T-6 IP. I never flew the T-6 in UPT, but my UPT commitment is long since up and I've been logging "continuous rated service" since UPT. Based upon the gouge found earlier in this thread, I referenced AFI 36-2107 table 1.1, note 1b when I was told I had to sign a 3 yr ADSC for advanced flying training via CMS.

Fast forward a week and this is AFPC's response:

"Response Via Email(myPers - Total Force Service Center)

Sir,

Thank you for giving us the time to answer your question. we have reviewed your record and note 1b is not applicable, however note 1c is applicable as quoted below,

"c. Rated officers who crossflow/retrain into another rated career field (e.g., an air battle manager who crossflows/retrains as a navigator or manned or unmanned pilot), crossflow/retrain to a different weapons system (basic qualification) or aircraft airframe will incur the full ADSC for that training even if that ADSC extends beyond the officers 6th or 10th year of rated service."

We did not find any prior training for the T-6, therefore this initial qualification training is applicable. Please see the below link to sign the form and return to our office. If you have any questions or concerns, please reply to this message. Thank you.

Please visit our "Advanced Flying Training" web page to accomplish this."

Can anyone here explain why note 1b conveniently doesn't apply in my case? And any recommendations on how I should proceed?

It seems to me that AFPC is very good at interpreting the AFI's through lenses that justify their position while blindly ignoring other sections that don't.

-9-

Ridiculous. AFPC is definitely not looking to make pilot retention any better aren't they? I would recommend talking to your local JAG office to see what they think about this interpretation and your situation.

[HuggyU2]

Thread revival:

I recently got an assignment to PCS this summer to be a T-6 IP.

Were you ever an AETC Instructor Pilot?

[Nineline]

Were you ever an AETC Instructor Pilot?

Nope.

I asked a few follow-on questions regarding my ADSC, and according to a TSgt at AFPC, a T-38 IP assignment would not have generated an ADSC because I have flown that before. In that case, note 1b would apply and 1c wouldn't as previously stated earlier in this thread.

And as for what I'm going to do.. I'm going to take the T-6 along with the ADSC. I considered asking for a T-38 to avoid the ADSC, but there are two problems with this: 1) I would be forced to show my cards, and 2) the "system" does not favor those with ADSC concerns. The established process is for me to decline my T-6 ADSC in writing after being counseled by my MPF, establish a date of separation, and then ask the porch if I will retain my original T-6 assignment, receive another assignment instead, or have the T-6 assignment cancelled and stay at my current assignment until my separation date arrives. Your situation may be different, but for me, the safe call is to take the T-6 and the associated ADSC. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky and get it removed after the fact like ViperStud suggests.

For you TL;DR folks, here's the basic lesson: Keep notes 1b and 1c in mind if faced with the possibility of an AETC tour. Your chosen white jet may add three years (not including PIT) to your short term plans if you're not appropriately fenced-in.

-9-

[ViperStud]

Funny-ish side story: when I started the separation process, local MPF chick told me I would probably not be able to separate so quickly because AETC IP tours are 3-yr controlled tours. I was pretty aggressive in telling her how wrong she was, but she stuck to her story about how that means you can't leave until the controlled tour is over.

Fortunately, the locals never get involved in your separation. It's all between you and big AFPC. Separating was actually the easiest admin process I have ever gone through. I had sep orders within a week of hitting the submit button.

[BCan]

Tell them you'd like to switch over to the T-38 for other reasons? Job as red air, bomber base IP, etc down the road. Then, get the ADSC removed after you PCS. Just a thought.

[ghost_ttu]

I went through an initial qual and never received a RIP. On virtual MPF my only remaining ADSC is pilot training which expires next year. The initial qual would extend that commitment another year. I went to the local MPF and they told me there is nothing in the system and I'd be able to bounce next year. Do I need to be concerned about big MPF screwing me, can they assess me the 3 year even though I never signed anything? And is there a way I can find out early so leadership doesn't see my cards?