?s on ADSC (Active Duty Service Commitment)

[pawnman]

4 hours ago, Duck said:

6 months is still way too long for too little payoff personnel wise. When I joined, 90 days was the standard. It may have costed more to swap people out more often, but it was so much easier on the family. What happened?


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Maybe it's just because it's what I'm used to, but I think six months is more sustainable from a time-at-home perspective than 90 days.  I don't know how the tanker guys do 90 deployed, 90 home, 90 deployed...seems like you never get established in either place.  

But again, my community was doing 6 months deployed, a year at home...so maybe it's just because that's what I know.

[Homestar]

51 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Maybe it's just because it's what I'm used to, but I think six months is more sustainable from a time-at-home perspective than 90 days.  I don't know how the tanker guys do 90 deployed, 90 home, 90 deployed...seems like you never get established in either place.  

But again, my community was doing 6 months deployed, a year at home...so maybe it's just because that's what I know.

Tanker guys time out around the 77 day mark so they either have to sit for a couple weeks for time to drop off or just send them home for a couple months and send in fresh meat. 

For non flying deployments I agree that 6 months at least gives you a chance to figure out what you're doing before you go home. But yeah, 6 months is not fun. 

[BashiChuni]

alright gents i've read a few pages of this thread...same as some other posters i'm coming from a MWS going to T-38 PIT...AFPC trying to make me sign the 3 year ADSC. I've read the applicable note B posted a few pages back and it seems clear that they can't extend me past 10 years...but im also familiar w/ note c and that seems clear that they can.

i send AFPC an email on it and here was their reply:

"Capt,

Our records do not indicate that you have a basic qualification in the T-38 which is for the course you are attending. If you could please provide your Form 8 that shows your basic qualification so we can close your case. If you do not have the basic qualification then per AFI 36-21071 Note 1C. Rated officers who crossflow/retrain into another rated career field (e.g., an air battle manager who crossflows/retrains as a navigator or manned or unmanned pilot), crossflow/retrain to a different weapons system (basic qualification) or aircraft airframe will incur the full ADSC for that training even if that ADSC extends beyond the officer’s 6th or 10th year of rated service.

v/r
AFPC ADSC Policy"

one of my buddies who went to PIT recently had AFPC remove the 3 year ADSC from his records after sending the exact same email i sent.

from the other replies in this thread it seems AFPC approves some and disapproves others. standard. but god damnit note 1b fucking applies. i'm not going to give up.

*reattack* how the fuck can they pick and choose which provisions they're going to follow? im amazed they haven't rewritten the reg seeing as how guys on this thread have been talking about the same issue for YEARS

any thoughts?

Edited September 2, 2017 by BashiChuni

[icohftb]

Does it say that note 1c specifically overrules 1b?  They didnt push back when i pointed out the 1b clause when i brought this up about 4 yrs ago

Edited September 2, 2017 by icohftb

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

 

any thoughts?

Were you a T-38 FAIP or otherwise fly the -38 as something other than a student?

If you flew it previously as something other than a student you shouldn't incur an ADSC. If your only time in that jet is as a student then you will incur an ADSC. That's how I understand it. 

[icohftb]

I think the issue is which clause takes priority. 

 

[BashiChuni]

7 minutes ago, icohftb said:

I think the issue is which clause takes priority. 

 

that's the issue yes.

i only flew it as a student. i'm trying to reconcile how afpc approves ADSC waivers and denies others...both in the exact same situation.

when my ADSC is up i'll have given the AF 10 solid flying years...and they're trying to fuck me over with 6 extra months. thanks air force.

 

Edited September 3, 2017 by BashiChuni

[BashiChuni]

18 minutes ago, icohftb said:

Does it say that note 1c specifically overrules 1b?  They didnt push back when i pointed out the 1b clause when i brought this up about 4 yrs ago

no it does not say that

[icohftb]

I wouldnt even try to argue about the previously qualed portion and stick to the 10 yr adsc clause. If it does not specifically say thar 1c nullified 1b then i would point thar out.

Have you already pcsd and recieved the training?

Edited September 3, 2017 by icohftb

[BashiChuni]

8 minutes ago, icohftb said:

I wouldnt even try to argue about the previously qualed portion and stick to the 10 yr adsc clause. If it does not specifically say thar 1c nullified 1b then i would point thar out.

Have you already pcsd and recieved the training?

negative. january 2018 departure for PIT with RNLTD to UPT base june 2018

i think im going to try your advice in my next email. look im super stoked going to UPT it just feels like big blue is trying to squeeze every little drop out of us

[icohftb]

Id look into how your leadership would view it if yiu refused the adsc and if they would turn off your pcs 

[Homestar]

26 minutes ago, icohftb said:

Id look into how your leadership would view it if yiu refused the adsc and if they would turn off your pcs 

If you're within 3 years of separation then just decline the assignment. 

[FUSEPLUG]

57 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

it just feels like big blue is trying to squeeze every little drop out of us

You seem shocked. 

29 minutes ago, Homestar said:

If you're within 3 years of separation then just decline the assignment. 

Boom.

[icohftb]

Exactly. Push comes to shove i bet they waive the training adsc (if youre wanting to pcs)

[MooseAg03]

I was told by AFPC that they are in the middle of re-writing this reg. I'm sure they'll force everyone to incur 3 year ADSCs for any/all flying training in the future even if it extends beyond 10 years. It should drop in the next few months.

[ViperStud]

BC, how are you leaning WRT getting out vs staying in?  

If you're getting out at the end of your commitment, just refuse to sign and incur the ADSC. They either send you anyway or cancel the assignment - likely keeping you ar your current duty station.  

Youre right that it's BS. I separated years ago, but I was one who signed the paperwork then went back after the fact to nix the additional ADSC with a simple email. I guess the right pounder got my request. Several of us did the same. 

[ViperMan]

7-day-opt. There's your solution.

[ViperStud]

Not so sure 7-day is an option. Bashi mentioned the 3-yr would go 6 months past UPT commitment, meaning there are about 2.5 left after PIT to serve out the PCS time. If I could go back in time, knowing I would get out after the assignment, I would refuse to sign the paperwork. That's what you should do.  Be respectful to your CCs when they ask why and simply state that you're not bowing to AFPC when they have consistently interpreted the AFI differently and you have one clause in black-and-white to support your case. You'll be in an interesting gray area if he AFI subsequently changes between now and PIT start date, that's why you should refuse to sign ASAP and get some email traffic going to document it. 

As a data point, we had a dude who showed up at my ANG unit a year or so ago as an AD guy. Turns out he got an assignment he didn't like and told the OG he was separating to join our unit. The OG responded by asking - what if he could get him the same assignment on AD?  He said yes and the assignment changed to an AD billet with us. The porch is very much negotiating with terrorists at this point, regardless of what they actually say. You give up any and all leverage the second you sign that ADSC paperwork. 

[matmacwc]

34 minutes ago, ViperStud said:

Not so sure 7-day is an option. Bashi mentioned the 3-yr would go 6 months past UPT commitment, meaning there are about 2.5 left after PIT to serve out the PCS time. If I could go back in time, knowing I would get out after the assignment, I would refuse to sign the paperwork. That's what you should do.  Be respectful to your CCs when they ask why and simply state that you're not bowing to AFPC when they have consistently interpreted the AFI differently and you have one clause in black-and-white to support your case. You'll be in an interesting gray area if he AFI subsequently changes between now and PIT start date, that's why you should refuse to sign ASAP and get some email traffic going to document it. 

As a data point, we had a dude who showed up at my ANG unit a year or so ago as an AD guy. Turns out he got an assignment he didn't like and told the OG he was separating to join our unit. The OG responded by asking - what if he could get him the same assignment on AD?  He said yes and the assignment changed to an AD billet with us. The porch is very much negotiating with terrorists at this point, regardless of what they actually say. You give up any and all leverage the second you sign that ADSC paperwork. 

Not busy enough on an exotic Island getting fed grapes and cheese?

[ViperStud]

33 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

Not busy enough on an exotic Island getting fed grapes and cheese?

Haha, busted!  I did spend about an hour this morning refusing to get out of bed, granted most of that time was checking out CFB scores. Serious question - is 1000 AM by the pool too early for a third Mai Tai?

[BashiChuni]

On 9/2/2017 at 10:21 PM, ViperStud said:

BC, how are you leaning WRT getting out vs staying in?  

If you're getting out at the end of your commitment, just refuse to sign and incur the ADSC. They either send you anyway or cancel the assignment - likely keeping you ar your current duty station.  

Youre right that it's BS. I separated years ago, but I was one who signed the paperwork then went back after the fact to nix the additional ADSC with a simple email. I guess the right pounder got my request. Several of us did the same. 

so I am 80/20 getting out.

I don't want to decline the assignment because I want the assignment. I'd like a break from the deploying lifestyle...

I also don't think I can 7 day opt since im 3 years and 2 months out from my 10 year ADSC

Edited July 6, 2018 by BashiChuni

[Guest]

so I am 80/20 getting out.
I don't want to decline the assignment because I want the assignment. I'd like a break from the deploying lifestyle...and as a hurlburt u28 guy the next assignment in afsoc will be cannon.
I also don't think I can 7 day opt since im 3 years and 2 months out from my 10 year ADSC

You can 7 day opt if the three years ADSC for training or the two year ADSC for PCS takes you beyond your current ADSC.

[ViperMan]

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

so I am 80/20 getting out.

I don't want to decline the assignment because I want the assignment. I'd like a break from the deploying lifestyle...and as a hurlburt u28 guy the next assignment in afsoc will be cannon.

I also don't think I can 7 day opt since im 3 years and 2 months out from my 10 year ADSC

I would send one more (polite) message, and then take the assignment if I was you. 6 months of active duty can effectively be reduced to 3 months if you have 90 days of leave.

8 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Not so sure 7-day is an option. Bashi mentioned the 3-yr would go 6 months past UPT commitment, meaning there are about 2.5 left after PIT to serve out the PCS time. If I could go back in time, knowing I would get out after the assignment, I would refuse to sign the paperwork. That's what you should do.  Be respectful to your CCs when they ask why and simply state that you're not bowing to AFPC when they have consistently interpreted the AFI differently and you have one clause in black-and-white to support your case. You'll be in an interesting gray area if he AFI subsequently changes between now and PIT start date, that's why you should refuse to sign ASAP and get some email traffic going to document it. 

As a data point, we had a dude who showed up at my ANG unit a year or so ago as an AD guy. Turns out he got an assignment he didn't like and told the OG he was separating to join our unit. The OG responded by asking - what if he could get him the same assignment on AD?  He said yes and the assignment changed to an AD billet with us. The porch is very much negotiating with terrorists at this point, regardless of what they actually say. You give up any and all leverage the second you sign that ADSC paperwork. 

1 hour ago, ihtfp06 said:

You can 7 day opt if the three years ADSC for training or the two year ADSC for PCS takes you beyond your current ADSC.

Yeah, this. Dig into AFI 36-2110. There is some verbiage in there that explains when you can and cannot 7-day-opt an assignment. The basic rule is if any extra training (AFT in your case), PCS, or whatever would result in an ADSC that takes you beyond another (different) ADSC, you can decline that "thing" and then establish a DOS. The fact that it happens to be 3+ years in the future is immaterial. That said, in your case, 3+ years is a long time to "hang it out there". I'd be very wary of doing that if I was in a place that could then summarily give me screw job after screw job.

You basically have to ask yourself if the cost of that is > than the cost of 6 more months in an assignment that you want.

 

Edited September 3, 2017 by ViperMan

[BashiChuni]

thanks for the feedback gents

to throw a new wrinkle into the conversation my buddy said he didn't get the ADSC waived until he completed PIT, then had the form-8 and submitted an email to AFPC highlighting note B. interesting.

[brabus]

I'm fairly sure I've read on here about guys changing the "3" to a "0" on the ADSC paperwork, signing it, and turning it in to AFPC.  And not a word was said.  Or maybe the scotch just made that up, but either way worth a shot.  What's the worst that could happen, they say you have to re-sign with "3" in the blank spot?

Edited September 3, 2017 by brabus