?s on ADSC (Active Duty Service Commitment)

[ViperStud]

53 minutes ago, sqwatch said:

Mine went something like this:

I am a current and qualified f16 pilot, therefore note 1b applies, thus I will only incur the psc adsc per your reg.

In other words, they know full well about note one b, but they throw spaghetti at the wall to see who signs the paper.


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This. They know exactly what they are doing. When I nullified my additional ADSC for AFT back in 2013 - the first person I reached at AFPC responded to my request like I was asking if the sky is blue. CMS case was submitted that day and the ADSC was adjusted by the end of the week. It's not about doing what's right; it's about strong-arming people. 

Edited December 3, 2016 by ViperStud

[HossHarris]

I believe mine contained the phrase "this is at best gross incompetence and at worse willful deception"

[FlightTime]

A guy I know faced the standard ADSC shennanigans from AFPC for AFT a year or so ago and decided to just fill out his own ADSC form (FM 63 or whatever it is) and put "00 (zero) years" in the commitment duration spot and then put the verbiage about referencing note 1b right next to it.  He signed it and sent it off and said it worked like a charm.  A bit like a guy I read about who put down a 0% APR on his credit card application and had it approved.  I thought it was a pretty crafty way to limit the headache of fighting with AFPC down the road.  It sounded like AFPC primarily cares about having a signed copy of that form to complete whatever "checklist" they have and the folks doing it obviously dont QC what is on the form versus what should be on the form.  I'll buy a case of beer for anyone that puts down "e^i*pi + 1". 

[Ram]

Now I'm wishing I made a custom Form63. Maybe next time...


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[Jughead]

On 12/2/2016 at 11:10 PM, FlightTime said:

I'll buy a case of beer for anyone that puts down "e^i*pi + 1". 

Ah, a math geek!

 

 

[Mox]

On 12/3/2016 at 7:10 AM, FlightTime said:

A guy I know faced the standard ADSC shennanigans from AFPC for AFT a year or so ago and decided to just fill out his own ADSC form (FM 63 or whatever it is) and put "00 (zero) years" in the commitment duration spot and then put the verbiage about referencing note 1b right next to it.  He signed it and sent it off and said it worked like a charm.  A bit like a guy I read about who put down a 0% APR on his credit card application and had it approved.  I thought it was a pretty crafty way to limit the headache of fighting with AFPC down the road.  It sounded like AFPC primarily cares about having a signed copy of that form to complete whatever "checklist" they have and the folks doing it obviously dont QC what is on the form versus what should be on the form.  I'll buy a case of beer for anyone that puts down "e^i*pi + 1". 

I also changed mine to read 00 months. I'll update one i'm done with training. 

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Bump.

I have a DOS set for 1 Apr '18, and am now getting hit with a deployment.  I have 60 days of leave carried over from last year, in addition to the leave I am accruing in FY17.  This will total up to 85.5 days of leave to burn before separation.  Is there a way to parlay this into a way out of the deployment?  I have been looking for anything in writing that stipulates a minimum time home before separating, and if they can legally obligate me to lose leave or sell it back instead of taking it?

[Herk Driver]

Bump.
I have a DOS set for 1 Apr '18, and am now getting hit with a deployment.  I have 60 days of leave carried over from last year, in addition to the leave I am accruing in FY17.  This will total up to 85.5 days of leave to burn before separation.  Is there a way to parlay this into a way out of the deployment?  I have been looking for anything in writing that stipulates a minimum time home before separating, and if they can legally obligate me to lose leave or sell it back instead of taking it?

What is the return date of the deployment?

As an aside, your Commander must approve any terminal. Nothing really says that he has to approve any days of terminal. Would it be a d!ck move? Of course it would. What I have seen before is to limit terminal to 60 days, especially with circumstances like yours.


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[nsplayr]

Is it a 365 or something? As stated above, terminal is not a right but an allowance that your commander doesn't necessarily have to approve, especially over 60 days.

I can only speak to my experience, where I deployed and upon returning home, outprocessed and started terminal leave 7 business days later.

Somewhat different situation in that I wasn't looking to get out of the deployment, but it also didn't appear optional even if I had been trying to do so.  No min time to outprocess was discussed or considered - the deployment was a go and on the back end I was determined to get out of dodge ASAP.

I did end up losing a handful of days of leave, and even lost an appeal on the grounds that "special leave accrual only applies if your deployment crosses fiscal years." That to me was a head scratcher based on a literal/logical reading of what the regs say, but what do I know, I'm just some random captain flying the line...

Water under the bridge...I got out and moved somewhere awesome and actually now have the job I would have stayed on AD to do, but in a great unit in the Guard.

Good luck to you sir, may the odds ever be in your favor!

[ViperStud]

Keep digging. Bro of mine got tagged for a 365 with a tighter window than you and used two things to punt it - retirement date set and I'm 69% sure the other was a min on 30 days required between deployment return and retirement date.  There was some talk of shortening the deployment but they just tagged some other poor soul. If the deployment gets you back by he beginning of March, methinks you're screwed.  I've never even heard a rumor about leftover leave coming into play if it's a 365. If it's a 6-monther then the bobs will just say you have plenty of time beforehand to make leave manageable. 

Congrats on separating, even if it is that far out. Join the club; the grass really is greener. 

[HossHarris]

On 1/17/2017 at 8:01 PM, Napoleon_Tanerite said:

Bump.

I have a DOS set for 1 Apr '18, and am now getting hit with a deployment.  I have 60 days of leave carried over from last year, in addition to the leave I am accruing in FY17.  This will total up to 85.5 days of leave to burn before separation.  Is there a way to parlay this into a way out of the deployment?  I have been looking for anything in writing that stipulates a minimum time home before separating, and if they can legally obligate me to lose leave or sell it back instead of taking it?

You are likely fucked. 

 

Unless you were to maybe fail a pt test, or start talking to the flight doc about all the stuff that you'll be telling the va .....

[ThreeHoler]

You are likely ed. 
 
Unless you were to maybe fail a pt test, or start talking to the flight doc about all the stuff that you'll be telling the va .....

Failing PT tests no longer exempts you from deployment. They fixed the glitch.

[R-Dub]

Quick question to the masses.  My ADSC ends in mid-December.  I'm being notified that I may be hot for a deployment with an in-place date in October.  The deployment extends past the end of my ADSC.  I have not submitted a DOS.  If I do get tagged with the deployment, can I then submit a DOS as the deployment would extend past my current ADSC?  I can find a reference for retirement processing (AFI 36-3203, Table 2.1), but I'm not having any luck with separations.

 Thoughts?

[sqwatch]

3-day opt


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[Duck]

3-day opt


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What was up with that memo (rumor?) about no longer being able to opt out of a deployment due to retirement or separation once you have already been tagged with it even if it extends past your eligibility window for retirement or separation?


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[Guest]

What was up with that memo (rumor?) about no longer being able to opt out of a deployment due to retirement or separation once you have already been tagged with it even if it extends past your eligibility window for retirement or separation?


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IIRC the memo only applied to retirements. You can still 3 day-opt for separation.


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[brabus]

8 hours ago, R-Dub said:

Quick question to the masses.  My ADSC ends in mid-December.  I'm being notified that I may be hot for a deployment with an in-place date in October.  The deployment extends past the end of my ADSC.  I have not submitted a DOS.  If I do get tagged with the deployment, can I then submit a DOS as the deployment would extend past my current ADSC?  I can find a reference for retirement processing (AFI 36-3203, Table 2.1), but I'm not having any luck with separations.

 Thoughts?

Are you getting out regardless of how the deployment shakes out? If so, why not immediately establish a DOS now?

[HossHarris]

I think 3-day opt is only an option for 365s. If you get tapped for a 180 (or other deployment short of a 365) without a conflicting DOS you are fucked. 

 

Read up up on the separations afi. It's painful legalese. Once you have a potential plan of action in mind, go talk to the separations people at your mpf. They're good at poking holes in your plans. 

[Herk Driver]

I think 3-day opt is only an option for 365s. If you get tapped for a 180 (or other deployment short of a 365) without a conflicting DOS you are ed. 
 
Read up up on the separations afi. It's painful legalese. Once you have a potential plan of action in mind, go talk to the separations people at your mpf. They're good at poking holes in your plans. 

Unless the memo referenced above conflicts then that is not accurate. You can submit a separation package upon notification of the deployment and the DOS will take priority over the deployment. Had this happen to a guy in my squadron several years ago but that memo came out after that.

Hoss gives you some good advice above and the other question above still stands...are you getting out anyway regardless of what happens with the deployment? If so, establish a DOS now and avoid all of this.


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[R-Dub]

10 hours ago, brabus said:

Are you getting out regardless of how the deployment shakes out? If so, why not immediately establish a DOS now?

In short, no.  I want to see what my next assignment is first.

9 hours ago, HossHarris said:

I think 3-day opt is only an option for 365s. If you get tapped for a 180 (or other deployment short of a 365) without a conflicting DOS you are fucked. 

 

Read up up on the separations afi. It's painful legalese. Once you have a potential plan of action in mind, go talk to the separations people at your mpf. They're good at poking holes in your plans. 

I'm working on the best interpretations of the AFI that I can, hence the question.  I think talking with the MPF is probably a good idea.

3 hours ago, Herk Driver said:

Unless the memo referenced above conflicts then that is not accurate. You can submit a separation package upon notification of the deployment and the DOS will take priority over the deployment. Had this happen to a guy in my squadron several years ago but that memo came out after that.

Hoss gives you some good advice above and the other question above still stands...are you getting out anyway regardless of what happens with the deployment? If so, establish a DOS now and avoid all of this.


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Herein lies the problem.  My UDM, CC, and my WG/CCE buddy all have a slightly different interpretation to the AFI.  Seems like there's more confusion on this topic than I had thought.

[HossHarris]

That memo basically said you could NOT set a DOS just to get out of a deployment. 

[BashiChuni]

what is the commitment for a white jet tour? does it start after you finish PIT?

[ViperStud]

Just now, BashiChuni said:

what is the commitment for a white jet tour? does it start after you finish PIT?

Few years back, no one knew. I was told training + 3 years, but they didn't know whether it was scheduled or actual  PIT dates. Then it was 4 years encompassing PIT. I ended up getting pulled back to the Viper early, then separated anyway to join the guard. No one could give me a straight answer. 

[tac airlifter]

5 minutes ago, ViperStud said:

Few years back, no one knew. I was told training + 3 years, but they didn't know whether it was scheduled or actual  PIT dates. Then it was 4 years encompassing PIT. I ended up getting pulled back to the Viper early, then separated anyway to join the guard. No one could give me a straight answer. 

Interesting point.  There have been so many times in my career that a basic administrative issue was encountered, an issue I'm sure is common, and yet no one knows the standard despite having an AFI.  Is there no continuity outside flying squadrons?  Is there no "Stan/eval" function that can adjudicate regulatory interpretations real time?  Apparently not.  Also, why are so many non-flying AFIs seemingly written with obfuscation rather than clarity in mind?  

No good answers gents.

[ColoradoAviator]

8 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

what is the commitment for a white jet tour? does it start after you finish PIT?

3 year ADSC for advanced flying training if you are getting a Form 8 in an airframe new-to-you.  (Doesn't count if you flew it in UPT.) Starts upon graduation of that syllabus.  Too lazy to cite the AFI so take it with a grain of salt.  

That's the ADSC.  When the AFPC trainer functional will release you is a whole different story.  Here in my corner of AETC we are all on 4 year tours (3.5 years post-PIT) before reaching escape velocity.