?s on ADSC (Active Duty Service Commitment)

[Smokin]

If you didn't accept an ADSC, I think you have a case even if they find it later. This is probably one of those times where you keep quite and hope it turns out well. Bringing it up now can really only hurt.

[ViperStud]

Nobody can put a gun to your head to extend your ADSC, that's why they threaten the great unknown if you don't sign the extension before you go to the training. If they miss it and try to make you to sign something after the fact, there is not enough rank on base to force you to do it.

As always, pick and choose your battles. If you're committed to separating at that point, who cares if you piss off a CC?

[Nineline]

Nobody can put a gun to your head to extend your ADSC, that's why they threaten the great unknown if you don't sign the extension before you go to the training. If they miss it and try to make you to sign something after the fact, there is not enough rank on base to force you to do it.

As always, pick and choose your battles. If you're committed to separating at that point, who cares if you piss off a CC?

You're right in the sense that no one can force you to extend your ADSC. However, you can't just forget the paperwork and start the training expecting to jink your way around it. Your signature isn't required for you to incur the ADSC -- merely being advised of the ADSC and starting training is enough for it to stick.

From 36-2107:

"2.17. Refusing to sign an ADSC Acknowledgment Form or Statement (Upon Selection for an ADSC-Incurring event). Members who are properly advised of an ADSC cannot therefore avoid an ADSC by refusing to sign the AF Form 63 or other acknowledgment statement. Members who do not establish a DOS or retirement date under the 7-day option and attend or enter into the ADSC-incurring event are considered to have constructively accepted the ADSC."

Now, obviously if you were never notified of the ADSC beforehand then you might have a valid argument, as you were never "properly advised." But if you were contacted prior to the "ADSC-incurring event" (via email, CMS, MPF, etc), then you can't get out of jail free by not signing the AF Form 63.

-9-

[ViperStud]

Now, obviously if you were never notified of the ADSC beforehand then you might have a valid argument, as you were never "properly advised." But if you were contacted prior to the "ADSC-incurring event" (via email, CMS, MPF, etc), then you can't get out of jail free by not signing the AF Form 63.

-9-

Interesting. When I was wanting to keep options as open as possible based on the notes above, MPF told me that not signing the form would put the assignment in jeopardy. According to the reg now, you get the ADSC anyway so the form 63 is irrelevant beyond giving them an ironclad document with your sig - a warm fuzzy, if you will.

I signed and then it ended up being for nothing anyway as I had AFPC nix the commitment based on the same notes (good communication, dudes). It's dirty that they aren't counting the T-6/37 as the same, but it's one of those situations where the intent and explicit wording of a reg don't jive. I don't expect an SrA to get that, but I would hope if you push enough that you'd be successful.

[Duck]

Slow to the fight here, sorry guys. Are you all saying if you flew T-38s or T-6s as a student that you shouldn't get the ADSC if assigned to white jets in said airframe? I think I am totally misreading this discussion.

[ViperStud]

Duck, in a nutshell the reg is written terribly. One note on the table says that no advanced flying training can extend a pilot past their initial commitment. Another note says requal trainees don't incur an ADSC while initial quals do. There is no discussion about particular situations and a lot of gray area. What if you're going to get your initial qual in a new jet, can that make your commitment to past 10? Did flying it in UPT (never technically qualified in it) make going to PIT a "requal" of sorts? There is no discussion of which guidance takes precedence.

Along with several others, I successfully erased a PIT commitment and reset my ADSC back to my UPT+10 date. I'm betting that some AFPC weenie looked and saw that I had T-38 time and figured it must have counted as a qualification. They can see my flying time, but not my FEF. Even if they could see our FEFs, I doubt said weenie looking at the case has any idea the difference between flying something as a student and actually being qualified in it. "Well, he's flown it before so this must be a requal." Maybe I got lucky and my case landed on a newbie's desk; maybe that's their policy - who knows. We all got out so at this point it's moot.

[Duck]

Thanks Viper. Love that AFPC.

[upsilon]

My situation:

I’m on staff with a GI Bill Transfer ADSC through August 2018. I was notified I may be pulled back early to my community late-2016/early-2017. If they PCS me from the staff gig, can I decline the move and stay at my current duty station until the end of my ADSC and then seperate, or am I stuck making the PCS and the necessary requalification training?

[nunya]

They can't make you extend your ADSC. No telling what they'll do with you in the meantime though. Might leave you in place, might PCS you sans a new ADSC.

[Warrior]

They can't make you extend your ADSC. No telling what they'll do with you in the meantime though. Might leave you in place, might PCS you sans a new ADSC.

That's the problem. Most aren't willing to poke the bear to find out what happens if you decline the ADSC.

[stract]

every instance I've heard of this results in the member remaining at current duty station. Not cost effective for DOD to move you with less than 2 years retainability, and in this day and age of tightnening of purse strings, odds are in your favor you'd stay there.

[Ebony zer]

Is there a minimum amount of time you must give the AF prior to seperating?

For example an ADSC that expires on 1 Sep and you have 60+ days of leave. Could you in theory apply for a seperation date of 1 September on 1 June, out process in 1 month, go on terminal around 1 July, and just burn your remaining leave until 1 September?

Further, do you still get the 20 days PTDY (with cc approval) for relocation for a voluntary seperation?

[Herk Driver]

every instance I've heard of this results in the member remaining at current duty station. Not cost effective for DOD to move you with less than 2 years retainability, and in this day and age of tightnening of purse strings, odds are in your favor you'd stay there.

Except that he has 3 years of retainability and a CONUS to CONUS move is only a 2 year ADSC.

[icohftb]

Is there a minimum amount of time you must give the AF prior to seperating?

For example an ADSC that expires on 1 Sep and you have 60+ days of leave. Could you in theory apply for a seperation date of 1 September on 1 June, out process in 1 month, go on terminal around 1 July, and just burn your remaining leave until 1 September?

Further, do you still get the 20 days PTDY (with cc approval) for relocation for a voluntary seperation?

6 Months

And no regarding the PTDY (some have gotten it in the past, but its not guaranteed - its for retirements or involuntary seps).

Edited April 23, 2015 by icohftb

[ViperStud]

6 Months

Not necessarily. I was a free agent, applied for a 30 Sept separation on ~10 Jul and made it happen. There were all kinds of warnings about timeline and I needed WG/CC approval but it all worked out. There is a lot of outprocessing queep, TAPS (a week of mostly fluff) and remember AFPC needs to generate separation orders. You don't just hit a button and POOF, you're separated.

Upsilon, assuming your stated times are correct, you'll probably stay on station - like every case I've seen like that. Your problem will be catching a 365. If you've got a year+ left, everyone I've seen caught at least a 180 as your separation gift.

[stract]

I was a free agent, applied for separation on 25 Nov 13 to establish a 1 Apr 14 DOS (my ADSC had expired on 13 Nov 13 already), was approved on 26 Dec 13, and started terminal leave on 3 Feb 14 (final out 31 Jan). Also had to route it through the WG/CC for the less than 6 month request, just put "job opportunities" in the justification block.

[Ebony zer]

I like viperstud's answer. I'm on the fence about staying or leaving. With the current "pilot retention" problem, if AFPC still can't make an assignment happen consistent with my APD when I'm a free agent then I'll walk away with 11 good years of memories. I know that civilian companies are not likely to hold a job for several months while I try to separate, so I would like to be able to punch quickly.

[stract]

if you are considering punching, sounds like you've already made your mind up. I don't regret for an instant my decision. Also, you can take TAPS up to 2 years out from your expected DOS, so if you're within 2 years of your AFSC, you could easily sign up and knock it out. If you haven't already set up a LinkedIn profile and used some resources to get a resume squared away, you're behind the power curve. Get on that ASAP.

[ViperStud]

I think AFPC has a program that rack-and-stacks separation requests by sep date. I no-shit had separation orders in hand a week after I applied for separation. TAPS is a limfac because some places only teach it once a month and it fills up. Remember if you are going to a full-time RC gig on AGR or orders, you carry over leave and don't have to burn it all. I did that because I was in the short hairs; in retrospect I wish I had taken more terminal and pushed back by my start date in the ANG.

I was handcuffed by TAPS, had to complete that before my final out. The August class conflicted with a TDY I wanted to attend. Some bros have gotten out of TAPS, YMMV - maybe I didn't push hard enough. As soon as you are comfortable showing your cards, get TAPS done.

[upsilon]

Upsilon, assuming your stated times are correct, you'll probably stay on station - like every case I've seen like that. Your problem will be catching a 365. If you've got a year+ left, everyone I've seen caught at least a 180 as your separation gift.

I'll take the 180 if it means I stay in place and separate. How much time between return from the deployment and separation is AFPC required to give you? Six months? Returning from the 180 and separating 1-2 months later sounds impossible.

[Karl Hungus]

Except that he has 3 years of retainability and a CONUS to CONUS move is only a 2 year ADSC.

Say someone had 2.5 years of ADSC remaining and a pending PCS to a new airframe. So a 2 year ADSC for the CONUS-CONUS PCS and a 3 year ADSC for the training. Will AFPC not PCS you to a job that you've already 7-day opted from (the training, in this case)?

[ViperStud]

Go QC the shoe clerk regs, but it's certainly not 6 mos. I was deployed with a buddy who returned with about 19 months left and applied for retirement a year out - standard. They tried to hit him with a 365 as soon as his IDT counter ran out, even were willing to accept less than a 365 to get him back in time to retire. I think it was 30-90 days required between return and retirement. He ended up getting out of it through good leadership and the fact that his retirement request and the 365 passed in transit. I'm betting the time required back pre-sep or retirement are the same.

AFPC doesn't give a shit about you having time to job-search and make a smooth transition. They care about getting the most out of dudes before they split.

[Herk Driver]

Say someone had 2.5 years of ADSC remaining and a pending PCS to a new airframe. So a 2 year ADSC for the CONUS-CONUS PCS and a 3 year ADSC for the training. Will AFPC not PCS you to a job that you've already 7-day opted from (the training, in this case)?

I hate to say it, but it depends. AFPC can waive the ADSC...not typical, but it can be done. If you 7-day opt there are certain rules for establishing a DOS or retire-in-lieu of the assignment. The retirement AFI is some good reading but MPF will have no clue on anything that is out of the ordinary.

[schokie]

Didn't that happen to Pawnman? I seem to remember him 7-day-opting but still being sent to Clovis for 11 months anyway.

[pawnman]

Not this Pawnman...unless I have a nasty surprise waiting when I return from my current vacation to the sandbox.