Judaism In The Air Force

[MD]

What if you female commander calls you in her office to chew you out (sts) and shuts the door?? Then what?

Bow-chicka-bow-wow?

[Guest ROTC Jew]

HAHAHAHAHHAHA

I've never gotten physical in the COCKpit....but...that sounds like a good idea.

I respect your religion, but you are gonna have difficulty man. Especially with the women thing. What if you female commander calls you in her office to chew you out (sts) and shuts the door?? Then what? I can think of a jillion examples like that.

I do admire your desire to serve

True, but once you start making exceptions the slippery slope never ends, so the line has to be drawn and it has. There are contingency plans for situations like the CC one (security camera, etc.) that can be implemented. Remember, I'm willing to compromise too.

no such thing.

I know. I meant in context of this discussion, i.e. what are the problems I'm going to run into on a daily, weekly, etc. basis. As in, what are going to be the issues that get on people's nerves as opposed to a once-in-a-while inconvenience? People have mentioned a few, but they all seem to apply to flying.

[Guest Tertle]

Here's how I see it.

If your commander says to you:

Commander: ROTC Jew, I need you to come in on saturday to finish this audit.

ROTC Jew: I'd prefer not to work on saturday because of my religious practices.

Commander: Then stay until midnight on friday, I don't give a shit. Just get it done and on my desk.

ROTC Jew: Got it.

_____________________

I don't see many people going the extra mile to accommodate you. I see people respecting your practices and helping you out when they can, but don't expect people to bend over backwards to make sure you feel comfortable.

As for particular things getting on peoples' nerves, probably as some on here have said before: Anything that makes them work harder than they should be only because they're trying to pick up your slack.

[Vandal]

They will revolve around flying here since this is a Military Aviation website but most of what is said can be translated to the rest of the AF. My current girlfriend's Dad is a Ret. LT. Col. who was a Comm guy in the AF and before that a Tank guy in the Army. As a Comm Maj. In Germany during the first Gulf War he wasn't home for the first week of the war. He was basically stuck in his building running the commo into and out of the AOR. My point is there is no such thing as a "normal" day in the AF no matter what you get as your AFSC. It just doesn't happen. If you want a normal day the military probably isn't for you. If you cannot work with women in close quarters in the AF today you will be ineffective no matter the career field. For talking to a female CC or if you are in charge a closed door session STS with a female subordinate you can have a "witness" if you will but then you will still have to talk to her, not talk through a mouthpiece. Remember the military revolves around the needs of the military not the needs of the service member.

I wish you the best of luck but suggest you look into another line of work. If you are set on going this route be prepared to make some religious sacrifices, if you cannot do there will be issues for you and those around you.

[Guest davalt10]

Honestly if you are so worried about all the Judaism stuff, why don't you just go to Israel and serve in the IDF? They can handle all of your needs etc. etc. Just so you know I'm not saying this to be disrespectful, I'm Jewish myself and if you think that if you are going to have a lot of problems in the US Air Force, just go to Israel. I know they would love to have more Americans go over, join, and protect Israel. Then you don't have to worry about the whole dating thing because everyone there is a Jew (and all the girls are beautiful)! Anyway, thats just my $0.02.

Edited June 18, 2008 by davalt10

[pawnman]

Dude, something's going to have to bend. Either your reluctance to talk to women and work weekends, or your desire to be an Air Force officer. Others have stated that there are plenty of contractors in the computers and communications fields, and as a contractor you'd have much more freedom to folow your beliefs.

Bottom line, I don't see being able to get out of working with women, even in a potentially "private" setting (not that I'd classify a cockpit as "private"). What happens when you and Lt Jane are the two assigned to close the shop after everyone else is gone?

And I really don't see getting out of working on the Sabbath.

I also foresee problems with the Kosher thing, especially on deployments, especially if you're one of the lucky few who goes off to play Army for a while.

[M2]

Seriously, if it is going to be this complicated, then maybe you should examine other alternatives. You wouldn't be the first Jew to serve in the USAF and probably not the last; but it appears you have conflicts and to be honest, I see a rocky road ahead of you. Even if you go intel or into Cyber Command, there will always be a possibility that you could be alone with a female in an "intimate" location. For example, you are on a mid-shift watch, and that happens, what are you going to do? Leave? Fuck that! And yes, you will be subject to foul language like the kind I just used. Are you going to complain because other people swear? And where does that end? Are you going to complain because other people drink? Trust me, you will be a lonely person if you do. It is OK not to swear or drink yourselves, but when you try to impose your beliefs on others, you will only ostracize yourself. The only rules and regulations you are expect to enforce are those of the USAF.

Inasmuch as I applaud anyone's desire to serve their country, that doesn't overshadow the fact that it means fitting into an environment that may not suit your personal needs. When that ass clown Clinton invoked the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy on DoD, most weren't happy. But he had to appease the gays and let them serve. Not don’t misconstrue that to mean I am homophobic, I am not and actually have a very good friend who is gay. But he is not in the military, and even he understands why that policy is wrong.

My bottom line is that when you join the military, you are joining an institution whose needs come before yours. We all make sacrifices, and we all accept that. If you are not absolutely, 100% sure you will be able to do that, then maybe you are on the wrong career path. Now would be a very good time to make sure…

Cheers! M2

[Guest ROTC Jew]

I was looking over the previous posts and I realized what's happening. I meant to type up a list of ways to deal with all these things, and I thought I had. Here it is:

1. While work isn't allowed from Friday night to Saturday night, these are very specific types of work, and if I have to get something done during the time once in a while there are things around it. For example, there's a prohibition to light a fire. Therefore you can't turn on a lightbulb because it creates a spark. However, battery-operated appliances may not have all of these problems. Orthodox Jews as a rule stay away from operating all electric devices just as a fail-safe, because otherwise every new invention that came out would have to be analyzed, and people would make countless mistakes, but in this type of environment it's possible to find methods of operation that don't conflict with actual Jewish law, but at the same time meet the needs of the mission. For example, if something has to be typed (audited, whatever) it may be permissible to use an unplugged laptop. Yes, that will mean spending some of my own money on extra laptop batteries, but I'm prepared to do that.

2. The woman privacy thing isn't new, and there are many ways around it. For example, having a CC camera that shows in someone's room. They won't be looking at it all the time (in fact, probably not much at all), but the fact that they could be watching is enough of a deterrent. Or if anyone could walk in at any time, then it's the same thing. The prohibition really applies more in a cockpit setting where no one will be coming in once they're off the ground ;) (And yes, the line's been drawn).

3. Dealing with women is permissible, just should be kept to a minimum and to necessity. It's the same thing I do at work now. Be polite, don't insult anyone, but leave it at professional only. It's the same question as in the workplace, and that, of course, is something which has been dealt with.

4. I will never order anyone not to drink, swear, smoke, etc. (unless it's drinking on duty or something like that). Like you said, if I don't, then people will usually respect that, but I'm not here to influence others. That's something I'll just have to bear. And like I said, I have no problem socializing, but who's to know if that's apple juice or beer? ;)

5. From the people I've spoken to, Kosher might actually be easier while on deployment. I know that sounds crazy, but that's what I've heard from those who have been there, done that.

What else?

[brabus]

You can't go to your first squadron and tell the CC they have to put up cameras. You also aren't going to get very far if you say you can't do your job b/c you refuse to turn a light switch or something along those lines. I know you're saying there's ways around it, but the problem I'm seeing is "there's a way around it" is adding up and up...which will lead to your CC telling you to suck it up and just do your job. I can just about promise you there will be a point after you comission where you will be forced to break a religious rule (even something as simple as using a computer plugged into the wall). If you're not ready to deal w/ that kind of stuff, then you need to find another line of work. Is there a way for a Rabbi to give you a sort of "blanket" OK to do these types of things considering its for the military and defense of the country? I guarantee you the Israelis work 24/7 in the government, military, etc. They don't take Fri night - Sat night off. So if they can do that, then I think you can too.

[Guest Fogo]

I've said it a couple times before; and I'll say it again to be clear: We all respect your wish to serve; and the fact that you've started the path towards it.

Having said that; the problem is that you continue to tell us what the exceptions, or work-arounds are for all these issues, and we are really politely trying to tell you that it just isn't so. Those of us already working in the every day big blue world are telling you that you will have issues. You can "plan" on going in and keeping the female interaction to a minimum or "professional" only relationship; but you won't be able to do it (and still do your job.) Like has also been said; they won't just throw up cameras in the CCs or any other office either. (If you only knew how long that would take to get done even IF they said they would do it.)

The AF surely needs people with this much of a desire to serve in this day and age; however, they need you to be doing work, not constantly trying to get around things.

[Guest ROTC Jew]

Most of the IDF isn't religious, which is why they don't think about this. There's a religious portion of the IDF called "Nachal Chareidei," which literally means "Orthodox military," and they don't work on Saturdays, with women, etc. I've asked more than one NonCom (not to mention a few Officers) why they don't do something similar here... but no point in fantasizing. In Orthodox Judaism there's no such thing as a "blanket exception" except () when it comes to life-in-death. In a combat environment it's quite possible that these will happen, but if you're just on an AFB in the States, that's not that likely.

With that being said, I fully understand where you're coming from, and you're right. So the question is, how do other people do it? I mean, people have said (in this thread) that they know religious Jews, and most of the problems that they brought up having with these people don't apply to me (flying, for example). So... how do those that do it do it?

Edited June 18, 2008 by ROTC Jew

[Guest Tertle]

Most of the IDF isn't religious, which is why they don't think about this. There's a religious portion of the IDF called "Nachal Chareidei," which literally means "Orthodox military," and they don't work on Saturdays, with women, etc. I've asked more than one NonCom (not to mention a few Officers) why they don't do something similar here... but no point in fantasizing. In Orthodox Judaism there's no such thing as a "blanket exception" except () when it comes to life-in-death. In a combat environment it's quite possible that these will happen, but if you're just on an AFB in the States, that's not that likely.

With that being said, I fully understand where you're coming from, and you're right. So the question is, how do other people do it? I mean, people have said (in this thread) that they know religious Jews, and most of the problems that they brought up having with these people don't apply to me (flying, for example). So... how do those that do it do it?

No one here can give you an answer. I would seek counsel somewhere else.

[HeloDude]

I was looking over the previous posts and I realized what's happening. I meant to type up a list of ways to deal with all these things, and I thought I had. Here it is:

1. While work isn't allowed from Friday night to Saturday night, these are very specific types of work, and if I have to get something done during the time once in a while there are things around it. For example, there's a prohibition to light a fire. Therefore you can't turn on a lightbulb because it creates a spark. However, battery-operated appliances may not have all of these problems. Orthodox Jews as a rule stay away from operating all electric devices just as a fail-safe, because otherwise every new invention that came out would have to be analyzed, and people would make countless mistakes, but in this type of environment it's possible to find methods of operation that don't conflict with actual Jewish law, but at the same time meet the needs of the mission. For example, if something has to be typed (audited, whatever) it may be permissible to use an unplugged laptop. Yes, that will mean spending some of my own money on extra laptop batteries, but I'm prepared to do that.

2. The woman privacy thing isn't new, and there are many ways around it. For example, having a CC camera that shows in someone's room. They won't be looking at it all the time (in fact, probably not much at all), but the fact that they could be watching is enough of a deterrent. Or if anyone could walk in at any time, then it's the same thing. The prohibition really applies more in a cockpit setting where no one will be coming in once they're off the ground ;) (And yes, the line's been drawn).

3. Dealing with women is permissible, just should be kept to a minimum and to necessity. It's the same thing I do at work now. Be polite, don't insult anyone, but leave it at professional only. It's the same question as in the workplace, and that, of course, is something which has been dealt with.

4. I will never order anyone not to drink, swear, smoke, etc. (unless it's drinking on duty or something like that). Like you said, if I don't, then people will usually respect that, but I'm not here to influence others. That's something I'll just have to bear. And like I said, I have no problem socializing, but who's to know if that's apple juice or beer? ;)

5. From the people I've spoken to, Kosher might actually be easier while on deployment. I know that sounds crazy, but that's what I've heard from those who have been there, done that.

What else?

Dude, all I have to say is WTF. As I've stated before, you appear to be a great person and all, and I truly admire your desire to serve, but you're talking mostly nonsense at this point as far as Big Blue is concerned. I think you have more than enough info and opinions from this post by now. I suggest that the moderators add their points and then close this thread. Diminishing returns is definitely starting to settle in.

...unless people just think it's funny to hear the poor guy talk about how he thinks the Air Force should spend money installing cameras in work places so the CC has the option to 'observe' everything that's going on (if he wishes to do so). Heck if that happens then we might actually have to start doing 'work' when we're at our desks.

[Guest Flying Heeb]

Your choice of screen name...wow...

I'd say Jewish people are one of the smallest minorities in the AF. Not saying that as a good or bad thing, just statement of fact.

At my field training I only saw one name under the Synagogue/Jewish Prayer, and she was a CTA. I decided to never go to any religious services at FT. But, at my old Det there are two other's Jews (which I was actually amazed at, but most of us are from Chicago so proportionately I think it was rather accurate).

I have seen Yamakah's (sp?) worn under the blue's service cap and nobody would ever know if you were sporting one under BDU cover anyway.

As for Kosher...how closely do you follow Kosher? Just no dairy and meat or also a Rabbi blessing the utensils and preparing the food? Because while it is relatively easy to separate dairy and meat I don't think you will be able to get a Rabbi in at Field Training to prepare the food (my experience).

I'm also an Orthodox Jew and when I went to FT in 2006 (E2), I ate tuna and corn flakes for three weeks until I got Kosher MREs. It was ok but I lost 30 lbs. I also didn't go to any religious services, I just put on my tefillin in my room.

[Guest fghtffyrdmns]

How do Yamakas (sp?) work with the AF? Are Jews allowed to wear them in blues and such? What about the long curly sideburn things (forgive my ignorance)? Can they have them and tuck them behind your ears?

Seems out of regs to me.

[Toro]

I'm also an Orthodox Jew

I never would have figured, what with your screen name and all.

How do Yamakas (sp?) work with the AF? Are Jews allowed to wear them in blues and such? What about the long curly sideburn things (forgive my ignorance)? Can they have them and tuck them behind your ears?

AFI 36-2903, Table 2.6

Indoors: Installation commander and chaplain may approve plain, dark blue or black religious head covering.

Outdoors: Installation commander and chaplain may approve religious head covering which are concealed under headgear; requests for religious covering which are not concealed under headgear is processed according to Table 2.9.

No exceptions for payot.

[chim richalds]

How do Yamakas (sp?) work with the AF? Are Jews allowed to wear them in blues and such? What about the long curly sideburn things (forgive my ignorance)? Can they have them and tuck them behind your ears?

Seems out of regs to me.

I know a dude who wears a yamaka, some people get all hot and bothered by it being on in uniform, but that's only indoors. Who cares, we gonna lose the war because of it?

[JeepGuyC17]

Most of the IDF isn't religious, which is why they don't think about this. There's a religious portion of the IDF called "Nachal Chareidei," which literally means "Orthodox military," and they don't work on Saturdays, with women, etc. I've asked more than one NonCom (not to mention a few Officers) why they don't do something similar here... but no point in fantasizing. In Orthodox Judaism there's no such thing as a "blanket exception" except () when it comes to life-in-death. In a combat environment it's quite possible that these will happen, but if you're just on an AFB in the States, that's not that likely.

With that being said, I fully understand where you're coming from, and you're right. So the question is, how do other people do it? I mean, people have said (in this thread) that they know religious Jews, and most of the problems that they brought up having with these people don't apply to me (flying, for example). So... how do those that do it do it?

You can try to find loop holes in the law that allow you to do certain things, but it will not always be possible. Bottom line, there WILL be times when you will need to do something forbidden when there are no exceptions allowing it. You have to ask yourself, if you were in this situation, would you refuse to do whatever it was? If so, then the military is definitely not for you. As others have stated, you can try to plan for how to face these issues, but in many cases things that may seem reasonable to you now will not be possible. Things like the security camera thing or the unplugged laptop. For example, if you become an intel officer, you will work in a secure, locked room (possibly with only yourself and a female). Since it is a classified environment, there are no cameras allowed, and you cannot use your own laptop because you will need to access secret information on a government computer. So you see, it is not just the flying world where you could run into problems.

If you are asked to do something incompatible with your beliefs and there is a loophole or exception that allows it, great. You can do your job and reconcile it with your faith. But if there is not an exception that allows whatever it is, you WILL still have to do it. That's just the honest truth. If you can make peace with the fact that there will be times when you will have to make exceptions to your lifestyle knowing that you tried your best, then you can probably make it work. If being forced to operate electronics on certain days, be alone with females, eat non-kosher food etc is going to eat you up inside, then you should pursue a different profession.

[Splash95]

Sorry about the delay in response- I had a password issue.

You're allowed to speak to women, but only as necessary. The problem with flying with a women A/C is that it's a private location, and that's forbidden because of the inherent possibilities. (Laugh if you'd like, but you know full well what I'm talking about.) It's already been stated, and I fully agree, that being a pilot would be impossible, and that's why I don't want a pilot slot.

We're also not allowed to come into physical contact with an unrelated female. This includes even non-affectionate gestures, although some will allow you to shake hands if there's simply no other way to do it, although I've found (as you said) that most women will be respectful once they understand that you don't look down at them.

I'm talking about a non-flying, "regular desk job" (if there is such a thing), either in communications, intel, whatever, which will make it easier to deal with these issues (not as many weekends, those that there are can be dealt with, etc.)

So, getting back to my "bottom line" list,

1. Most requests can be accommodated most of the time.

2. But not all requests all the time, so be prepared.

3. People are wary of those who act/behave 'different,' so don't show anything off.

4. Depending on your CC/CO, it may be easy or difficult, especially in a deployment situation.

5. If you don't feel you can live with it, don't.

6. DON'T FLY!!!

I guess an important thing to know (and if this is another topic here, please direct me,) is what is the typical day in the Air Force?

I had been on the fence through most of this discussion, but the above information is sufficient for me to state: Don't join the AF. No physical contact and no situations which could even conceivably give rise to "forbidden...possibilities"? My experience in the service is limited, but I can tell you that sh...stuff ain't gonna fly.

[Guest EverettP]

1. While work isn't allowed from Friday night to Saturday night, these are very specific types of work, and if I have to get something done during the time once in a while there are things around it. For example, there's a prohibition to light a fire. Therefore you can't turn on a lightbulb because it creates a spark.

I've just been reading this post for now but when I read this being the engineer type that I am... Who exactly determined that turning on a light bulb creates a spark? Maybe there would be a spark if the bulb wasn't seating correctly but the filament itself doesn't spark at all. Not to pull hairs or anything but what happens when you shock someone?

To tag along with what others are saying, it seems like being in the AF would be extremely difficult. What is your drive to be in the military?

[Boxhead]

Not to pull hairs or anything but what happens when you shock someone?

A female Muslim pops out from around the corner and rubs her menstruating cooch on you, then you catch AIDS and die.

Duh, don't you pay attention?

[MilitaryToFinance]

I've just been reading this post for now but when I read this being the engineer type that I am... Who exactly determined that turning on a light bulb creates a spark? Maybe there would be a spark if the bulb wasn't seating correctly but the filament itself doesn't spark at all. Not to pull hairs or anything but what happens when you shock someone?

To tag along with what others are saying, it seems like being in the AF would be extremely difficult. What is your drive to be in the military?

I was thinking the exact same thing. Neither a filament bulb of fluorescent bulb operate from a spark. So I don't know where he got that idea from.

[Guest ATC]

I was thinking the exact same thing. Neither a filament bulb of fluorescent bulb operate from a spark. So I don't know where he got that idea from.

Same place he got the idea that women are second-class citizens. . .

[Guest uptsdnt]

Wow, I never knew there were so many different rules and customs that revolved around the Jewish religion.

As far as answering your questions go, you will be required to perform your duties when called to do them, but the Air Force is willing to accomodate religious preferences within reason (i.e. you can't create your own religion and then say you want every day off).

Kosher food is avaliable in MREs and on base facilities. Our bowling alley has a few kosher meals for those who need that food. Also, I am sure that the commissary carries the neccesary foods if you want to cook yourself.

If you don't want to engage in relationships, then don't. God will provide for you, and he will lead you in the right direction when it comes to relationships.

If you don't drink, don't worry, but don't let that be an excuse not to hang out with people. Buy yourself a can of coke (or bottle of spritzer water if that is kosher) and shoot the shit with the guys. No one will blame you for not drinking.

Final thing...everyone can work around their job and their religion, and I am sure that it will be no different for you. There are services provided on base for multiple religions, and if your service isn't provided, the chaplain staff is more than willing to help you either find a place to worship, or start a service on base.

[Guest Flying Heeb]

From the last few posts clarifying the situation, I would say that the military isnt for you. The lifestyle isnt going to allow you not answering your phone during recalls or getting exceptional treatment during exercises or even...?War?.

Whoever led you to believe that the military will allow you to not answer the recall for any reason other than leave, illness or death, etc. did you some wrong. I would purchase tickets to watch you tell my last commander that if you dont answer the phone during a recall you aren't AWOL, your beliefs prohibit it.

You may be missing the signals we are sending. The hypothetical convoy is not going to wait for you to stock up on the fresh fruit. There arent orthodox rabbi's available for each decision you need to make. If you think Comm officers and intel dont spend time in tents eating MRE's away from chow halls, you are mistaken.

Bluntly...You will have to compromise your guidelines if you want to join, not the AF, not the others you work with, not the enemy.

Good luck in the future.

I see where you're coming from. I'm an Orthodox Jew currently at Vance AFB for UPT. During UCIs, ORIs, and other things that go over the weekend, I carry a beeper and if something needs to get done and I am on call (lives may be at stake), I answer it. It's definitely doable to be a religious Jew in the AF, but you have to make it so as it's not inconvenient for your chain of command. The less you request, the better. That's been my AD experience.

How do Yamakas (sp?) work with the AF? Are Jews allowed to wear them in blues and such? What about the long curly sideburn things (forgive my ignorance)? Can they have them and tuck them behind your ears?

Seems out of regs to me.

Yarmulkes are in regs, if they're plain black or dark blue and fit under the flight cap or ABU/BDU cover/beret. Sidelocks have to be cut to conform to AF standards IAW AFI 36-2309, I believe.