Judaism In The Air Force

[Guest Fogo]

I'm sure whould love to switch Saturday and Sundays with me (unless it's a M-F job, which, btw, how do you get those? Those would solve a lot of problems),

M-F is nearly all jobs with the exception of dudes at the gates over the weekend, etc. Like has been said, weekends come into play for deployments, TDYs, etc etc.

In addition to all the points that have been made about having your schedule accomodated, you're thought of switching for days like Christmas, Easter, etc that other people don't work isn't going to work. Again aside from essential base personnel, these are Holidays that the squadron will be shut down (or in the case of Easter, it's a Sunday.)

I'm a very devout Christian and it's not really something that comes up. Sure people know I am, because I mention I was at church Sunday, or talk about where my wedding is or something, but it's not really an issue. Your job is to serve your nation, and there is absolutly nothing that doesn't allow you to also serve your God. You may have to alter how you do it at times; but this is your job.

My overall opinion? I respect whole heartedly a man who wishes to serve both his God and his country. For me; those two things and family are the 3 most important. However; if you go in expecting to have every last need accomodated, you will very quickly grow weary of the military. As well; it sounds a lot like your ideals of how men and or women should act could very much affect your military life. As has been stated; you don't HAVE to drink or chase women or swear or anything else like that; but many people will. Some are idiots, and some are also the very best people you'll serve with. Can you separate those things from your abiity to work with people?

[sky_king]

From ROTC Jew's Word Document

We are not allowed to do any activities which are derived from G-D’S creative acts. <snip> This includes but is not limited to writing, carrying, shaving, cooking, doing laundry, moving anything electronic, money or credit cards and operating a motor vehicle or being driven in one.

While I was at the AEF exercise, which included a Sabbath <snip> I then joined my flight and followed them around as an observer. I did not participate in any of the exercises, nor did I carry my web belt- or anything else for that matter.

Answering the telephone during a recall is forbidden. Therefore don’t assume that the orthodox Jew has gone AWOL because he didn’t answer his phone, rather send someone to knock on his door to make sure that he is there.

It's true you are allowed to worship however you want in the AF. However, if you do this everytime, eventually people are going to start thinking you're bending the rules to your benefit even if you aren't. Like it was said earlier, religion usually only causes problems between airmen when one of them starts pushing the religion on to others or starts demanding that their religion's rules be observed in spite of others.

[Guest ROTC Jew]

If vulgar language bothers you, but raining and possibly enduring death and destruction doesn't...

yes?... I missed that one. Judaism isn't a religion, it's a way of life, as it says in Proverbs 3:18, "It's a tree of life to those who cling to it." I'm not talking about following a religion here, I'm talking about a lifestyle.

So...

Do I swear? No. Will that make me judge one person over another? No. I know what human nature is (even if I have different ways of expressing it) and I don't let that impede my judgment of people. As an amateur radio operator I deal with those who have lower standards than me all the time. That doesn't mean I think "oh, he's better than him," and if we were deployed to provide emergency communications, it wouldn't change who I'd want to be deployed with.

Camolet, ;) We obviously have differences of opinion over what enjoying life means :) .

I know sacrifices of that sort might be made, and I'm prepared for that.

An orthodox Jew never makes exceptions in his religion. If, for example, you were to tell an orthodox Rabbi that to be an officer in the military you have to put your religion aside for four weeks while you are in training, no Orthodox Rabbi would agree. It’s that simple.

(From the word doc I attached)

This is true. However, there are certain "barriers" which have been made which can be, for lack of a better word, compromised, but the key, key elements can only step aside for life-and-death cases, and again, an Orthodox Rabbi would have to make that determination (which, again, is why I'd like to get in contact with some of those religious Jews a few of you mentioned a few posts back). I expect to have to make some compromises in those areas, but I also hope that that won't be too often.

I think I'll have thought about Kosher meals, for instance, before I get into a humvee. I can get fresh fruits and vegetables and other staples since, again, Kosher food doesn't mean blessed by a Rabbi. So even if MRE's themselves aren't available, acceptable substitutes usually are.

Friday night has nothing to do with attending Synagogue (although I do, but that's only for part of the time). The point is that I can't do certain kinds of work. Other kinds I might be able to, again, it all has to be discussed with a competent Rabbi. I guess I could use a list of things that I should expect to confront so I can speak to such a person and decide if this is right for me or not. This is why I chose ROTC- I have a year to think about it before committing.

[Cooter]

I'll start by saying I'm not a religious guy but I'm Catholic (or so it says on my dog tags). That being said I know lots of people of different faiths and after an initial, "huh...you don't say" nobody bats an eye at it...unless YOU make an issue of it. I had a guy tell a group of us that we couldn't swear while we were at work...WRONG! You MAY ask someone to respect your beliefs/etc. but in no way should press your beliefs on someone. That being said I have an orthodox Jewish guy out on deployment with me right now, a flying intel guy, and the only way I knew was he did some deal with his hands when we sat down to eat after drinking, smoking, hanging out...but not chasing tail (he's married). He obviously does alright out here (and I mean working 7 days a week and flying combat missions) but it's all in what you are willing to sacrifice. God likes sacrifice (or so I hear)...you'll get to do a lot of it in the military trust me! I'm pretty sure there is a standing get out of jail free card for military folks at the pearly gates (or a toll booth or slip'n'side...whatever you believe you have to pass through to get in to paradise) for all their sacrifices. I'd imagine at some point the AF and your religion will butt heads and you'll have to choose...and Big Blue doesn't like to be turned down. I'll say you need to look long and hard (STS) at what your priorities are before making a decision. Good luck.

Cooter

As a side note, the no cursing/swearing guy...everytime I saw the guy I did my best tourrettes syndrome impression. But that guy was a huge D-Bag...and is no longer in the AF (thought military flying as more of a hobby than a job and put people at risk). Needeless to say I didn't like him.

[Guest Tertle]

yes?... I missed that one. Judaism isn't a religion, it's a way of life, as it says in Proverbs 3:18, "It's a tree of life to those who cling to it." I'm not talking about following a religion here, I'm talking about a lifestyle.

He was simply pointing out that you were concerned (or maybe not, I didn't read it all) about cursing, when you may someday face a situation that requires you to pull a trigger. I think his point was to show that there is some irony in that.

[Guest ROTC Jew]

He was simply pointing out that you were concerned (or maybe not, I didn't read it all) about cursing, when you may someday face a situation that requires you to pull a trigger. I think his point was to show that there is some irony in that.

I don't think so. The Bible is very clear on both points. The misconception stems from the commandment "לא תרצך" "lo sirtzach" which most bibles mistakenly translate as "do not kill." The actual translation is "do not murder." Killing is not forbidden if for a valid purpose, like war. Swearing, on the other hand, is forbidden for reasons I won't go into here (unless someone wants me to, of course). So, no, I don't think it's ironic.

[HeloDude]

From the last few posts clarifying the situation, I would say that the military isnt for you. The lifestyle isnt going to allow you not answering your phone during recalls or getting exceptional treatment during exercises or even...?War?.

Whoever led you to believe that the military will allow you to not answer the recall for any reason other than leave, illness or death, etc. did you some wrong. I would purchase tickets to watch you tell my last commander that if you dont answer the phone during a recall you aren't AWOL, your beliefs prohibit it.

You may be missing the signals we are sending. The hypothetical convoy is not going to wait for you to stock up on the fresh fruit. There arent orthodox rabbi's available for each decision you need to make. If you think Comm officers and intel dont spend time in tents eating MRE's away from chow halls, you are mistaken.

Bluntly...You will have to compromise your guidelines if you want to join, not the AF, not the others you work with, not the enemy.

Good luck in the future.

I agree with 99.69% of what camolet has said.

Dude, you sound like a great a person, but the Air Force isn't the place for you, or any military service organization for that matter. If I can't count on someone 110% of the time (exception of being ill or a current extreme family situation), then I don't want to serve with them. All of us on this board who have been in the military has been called into work on one of our days off...I gurantee it. The Air Force has been dealt some serious cutbacks in people the past few years and taking in someone who can not be 'called' on the phone during a recall (whether for an excercise or a legit recall) is purely unsat. I've knows guys in my squadron who have gotten LOC's for not answering their phones on a saturday morning during a phone recall excercise...why should you get a free pass and they don't?

Oh, and on a side note, unless you're having a direct conversation abour religion (ie you and your buds sitting down talking about your different religous views for fun, etc), don't quote the bible. You're going to find that people will like/respect you for who you are and how you act...you don't need to quote the bible to prove your point. Again, this is coming from a devout Catholic.

If you're rotc det hasn't sat you down to explain all of this to you, they are doing you a great disservice. I would ask the CC or the E with the most amount of stripes to sit down with you and tell you what they think, straight up, no sugar-coating.

Now, having said all of this, it doesn't mean you can't 'serve' your country in other ways. There are plenty of government civilian/contractor jobs that work in intel, comm, etc and I'm sure they'd be happy to use your expertise if that's what you can provide...and they can probably be more accomodating to your situation.

Best of luck man.

[Champ Kind]

This is getting to be borderline-UFB.

Second what HeloDude said about having a sit-down, face-to-face with people in the know. Hopefully they will be straight-shooters.

(Overly-)"Religious" people on AD have no problems until they try to start cramming their ideals down the throats of those around them, particularly squadron- or classmates.

I don't know you, but to be honest, from what you've posted, it sounds like you may be one of those people.

Best of luck.

BTW: People in ROTC actually WANT to join the USAF to enter "Cyber Command" now? WTFO?

[Guest ROTC Jew]

This is getting to be borderline-UFB.

Second what HeloDude said about having a sit-down, face-to-face with people in the know. Hopefully they will be straight-shooters.

(Overly-)"Religious" people on AD have no problems until they try to start cramming their ideals down the throats of those around them, particularly squadron- or classmates.

I don't know you, but to be honest, from what you've posted, it sounds like you may be one of those people.

Best of luck.

BTW: People in ROTC actually WANT to join the USAF to enter "Cyber Command" now? WTFO?

I was going to mention that. I spoke with the Det/CC and he told me essentially this:

1. All can be arranged except for the Saturday thing

2. It depends on how accommodating your CC is.

and that also seems to be the impression I'm getting here.

One of the things that Judaism has that's different from other religions (I'm not promoting, bragging, whatever, this is just a fact) is that we don't go looking for people. As a matter of fact, if a person says they want to convert we try to discourage them by telling them all the things they won't be able to do. Point being, I'm not the type of guy to "start cramming their ideals down the throats of those around them," whoever that may be. If anyone has questions I'll gladly try to answer them, but that's it.

He was simply pointing out that you were concerned (or maybe not, I didn't read it all) about cursing, when you may someday face a situation that requires you to pull a trigger. I think his point was to show that there is some irony in that.

I don't think so. The Bible is very clear on both points. The misconception stems from the commandment "לא תרצך" "lo sirtzach" which most bibles mistakenly translate as "do not kill." The actual translation is "do not murder." Killing is not forbidden if for a valid purpose, like war. Swearing, on the other hand, is forbidden for reasons I won't go into here (unless someone wants me to, of course). So, no, I don't think it's ironic.

Camolet, I have been getting that impression, but the fact still remains that there are those that did it, and that's why I'd like to contact them directly. And I didn't mean for a Rabbi to be at my beck and call, I meant to speak with him about various general issues that will come up, which is why I'd like to know that before I'm committed.

I'd definitely be open to civilian contracting positions, but I was under the impression that you had to be prior-service to do them.

I still have a lot to think about, but I guess for now there are two main questions.

1. Would it be possible to get any contact information you may have on any religious Jews (not including Chaplains)?

2. Could someone describe the everyday life of an Officer (I know, I know, there's no such thing. I mean in general, like what the average 9-5 job is, what will usually happen on that job, not in terms of what you'll be doing, but in terms of our context. Also, what deployment may look like, etc.) I need something real, not hypothetical, that I can go (now) to a Rabbi and say, "ok, here's what might happen. Is it compatible." You know what I mean?

[Guest Boom]

Your choice of screen name...wow...

I'd say Jewish people are one of the smallest minorities in the AF.

Muslims? I read somewhere there are only two Muslims chaplains in the AF.

[The Kayla]

I still have a lot to think about, but I guess for now there are two main questions.

1. Would it be possible to get any contact information you may have on any religious Jews (not including Chaplains)?

Ok, that might be a problem.. No one on here is going to go up to every single person in their squad and say "Are you an OrthoDox Jew?". Think about it.

There was a guy on here that said he is on a deployment with an Orthodox Jew, send him a PM, give him your email addy, and see if his friend will email you back. It's as simple as that.

The guys on this forum are pretty awesome, and will help you out anyway thet can--most of the time.

[Guest Boom]

Saturday, Donny, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means that I don't work, I don't get in a car, I don't ing ride in a car, I don't pick up the phone, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as shit don't ing roll! Shomer Shabbos!

[Sim]

From the last few posts clarifying the situation, I would say that the military isnt for you. The lifestyle isnt going to allow you not answering your phone during recalls or getting exceptional treatment during exercises or even...?War?.

3

I wouldn't want to serve with you....I've met before on enlisted side same religious types and they get on the nerves very quickly.

[Guest sgsoar27]

ROTC Jew, I don't really know where to start...being that you've brought up so many issues...

Here's what it comes down to: If you want to make it work, then it'll work. You may not be able to go into certain career fields or do exactly what you want to do, but if you're open to compromise, then all should be good. I'd consider myself a "traditional" jew---not orthodox, although I did try to delve further into the religion after commissioning.

I remember receiving advice from Rabbi Flax at Lackland AFB in 2002, and he said the following after I told him I that I wanted to make more room for religion. He said that the world has many many devout Jews who study Torah and Talmud, but there aren't that many Jewish pilots. At the time, I was pissed off--I mean...why couldn't I do both? But now I'm wiser and older....having realized my calling.

In any case, now I'm a special ops pilot and I'm enjoying life. All my peers in the squadron know that I'm Jewish...and even go out of their way to accommodate. Just know...that they will also give you a lot of crap as well---but mostly in the boyish fun way. I find myself defining Kashrut, the High Holidays, and what a shiksah is....but it's been well worth it!

Chazak v'ematz!

S.

[Guest Curt22]

Keep in mind, you arent joining to "work" in cyber command or in an intel "job". You would be asking to be an officer. You are going to have people depending on you from day 1 (maybe not day 1) to try to lead them and provide top cover from BS, politics, bad policy, etc. You will need to make decisions that affect peoples lives, and these decisions are sometimes contrary to what your faith asks.

I think this too might be a very telling comment for those not yet fully versed in the ways of military life/careers...you don't get to choose and them go to work for "Cyber Comm" as you would decided to go to work for "Wal-mart". You will be in a profession, be it intel, acquisition etc...if you decide to make a career of the military you are likley to find yourself serving as the Intel or Acq "Geek" in several different locations, MAJCOMs etc.

Intel troops do go "down range" and work 24/7/365 like the rest of the shooters and support staffs...Why? I have no idea cause I don't think I've ever got any decent intel from any intel folks about indian country over the years!

[Guest Fogo]

At the risk of sounding too preachy, I've had the following come to mind.

I was raised my whole life with a sense that religion and in my case God, is something that has put you here and given you a purpose, and so you give thanks for it. It is then something to support you in life; to go to when you struggle, to try and find meaning to things and to know in the end there is something greater. Etc etc.

In my military time now; I find this to be true. When I get pulled to fly out on a "less than desireable" TDY that happens to fall over a weekend; I know its what I signed up to do. Sure, I get a little upset, curse big blue a little bit... but then I realize its all for a reason. In this case; the reason is supporting the squadron and getting the job done. I can still practice my religion that weekend. Maybe I've got a few minutes before a brief to pray quietly... nobody even has to know. Like I said in a previous post; I'm a pretty religious guy, but nobody would know it because I am preaching it or demanding it. I go out with the guys/gals I fly with, I swear with the best of them and I'll support my bud's quest to pick up some tail that night. I stay away from that; but that's because I'm married. The point here... I can practice my faith through how I act and present myself and what my personal feelings with my God are regardless of where I am.

Bottom Line: Is your religion something that will support you and your life in service of your country and make you a better person? It does in fact appear to make you a good person... but I'm not so sure it will support your service to your country. I'll do nothing less than commend your desire; but its just something to think about.

[Guest ROTC Jew]

Every time I try to respond to this thread there's a new post that makes me think and re-write, and I thank you all for that. After reading all your valuable input, here's what I've consolidated to, please let me know if this is accurate:

1. Most requests can be accommodated most of the time.

2. But not all requests all the time, so be prepared.

3. People are wary of those who are 'different,' so don't show anything off.

4. Depending on your CC/CO, it may be easy or difficult, especially in a deployment situation.

5. If you don't feel you can live with it, don't.

Does this pretty much sum it up? Am I missing anything? It's 0315 here, so if I forgot to write your point, please don't hesitate to let me know. Thank you all.

[FlyinGrunt]

Every time I try to respond to this thread there's a new post that makes me think and re-write, and I thank you all for that. After reading all your valuable input, here's what I've consolidated to, please let me know if this is accurate:

1. Most requests can be accommodated most of the time.

2. But not all requests all the time, so be prepared.

3. People are wary of those who are 'different,' so don't show anything off.

4. Depending on your CC/CO, it may be easy or difficult, especially in a deployment situation.

5. If you don't feel you can live with it, don't.

Does this pretty much sum it up? Am I missing anything? It's 0315 here, so if I forgot to write your point, please don't hesitate to let me know. Thank you all.

Not that my advice is worth a damn at this point, but well summarized there. Regardless of whether you choose to serve or not, you seem to have listened to what we have to say.

[Guest Cap-10]

Rotc Jew,

I've been in flying squadrons with jews, muslims, mormons and buddhist.

Some have said they wouldn't want to serve with you.....I think thats a little extreme.

Your five consolidated points are a good summary, but I think you are off a little with #3. "People are wary of those who are 'different,' so don't show anything off."

I think what people are trying to say is that, they don't care what religion you are, what color you are, what sex you are, etc, as long as it doesn't make their job harder. If your personal actions cause others to pick up the slack that you are unable to do, they will be very bitter and not like you. It doesn't matter if the reason is your religion, or if you are a lazy person doing the minimum work and just 'getting by', they will despise you becuase you make their life more difficult.

I applaude your desire to serve and hope it works out for you. Good luck.

Cap-10

[Aurora85]

It fascinates me that that's what your initial reaction was. I once wrote a whole explanation about the Jewish dating system, but suffice it to say:

1. We don't believe in dating outside of looking for marriage,

2. When that time comes it's not about the experience, but about finding out about a person. So yes, you can have fun on a date, but you wouldn't go to a movie since that doesn't tell you about anything. Dinner would be more appropriate.

3. Again, I wouldn't just 'pick up' a girl at a bar, I'd wait until someone's suggested, check out their background, and decide whether to continue (and she'll be doing the same). I just don't want people to think exactly THAT- that just because I'm not 100% like them doesn't mean I'm not 'normal.'

So perhaps it's normal nature, but as Lt. Birnbaum (Army) used to tell the people in his squad, "It's not my cup of tea."

We had an orthodox Jewish LT going through FTU when I was there. He was highly controversial. A nice, extremely quiet guy but things that you mentioned above and in your other posts started to wear on people. I personally never had a problem with him, but his actions separated and alienated himself from others. Before we knew it everyone on base was talking about it. In a small community such as the kc-10..not only do folks here know about it, but at the other base as well.

First off, he would find a way to get out of any flight with a female. All the females knew his background and were respectful. He would never talk to them directly which really wore on their patience. Also these female pilots were married and professional.

Also again, we fly on the weekends..its AMC..its the USAF way of life going on. Mission needs to be done and doesnt matter what day it is. Again, he would drop flights which made it very difficult on schedulers. Say you need a flight or have to deploy and your A/C is a female. Suppose she is the only pilot able to go on this flt etc..you are going to be stuck. Seen it happen..its just how it is going to go down in the do more with less people age.

I could go on, but to wrap it up..IMHO..there is no way you are going to be able to not have interaction with females at work in this day in age. How you would handle it could make it very easy or difficult. No matter how you explain things, it would be a strain for you and your office/coworkers. The USAF goes out of their way to have everyone worship freely. However, how you handle things at the workplace and with other genders is going to determine how you get along at work. If you dont see yourself acting any different than the guy I described above..well then I would look somewhere else.

Edited June 18, 2008 by Aurora85

[brabus]

Question, why can't you even talk directly to women? Obviously just talking to a woman doesn't mean you're automatically hitting on her, seeking to date her, etc. So why would it be an issue to fly w/ a female A/C (example stated above)? Does being an Orthodox Jew basically bar you from talking to women except those in your family?

[MD]

We had an orthodox Jewish LT going through FTU when I was there. He was highly controversial. A nice, extremely quiet guy but things that you mentioned above and in your other posts started to wear on people. I personally never had a problem with him, but his actions separated and alienated himself from others. Before we knew it everyone on base was talking about it. In a small community such as the kc-10..not only do folks here know about it, but at the other base as well.

First off, he would find a way to get out of any flight with a female. All the females knew his background and were respectful. He would never talk to them directly which really wore on their patience. Also these female pilots were married and professional.

This whole thread...the portion quoted above as well as the whole 3 pages of crap here....reminds me of the case in the mid-1990s of Capt Ryan Berry, anyone remember him? He was the missileer who didn't want to pull alerts with a female crewmember in the missle silo, claiming he couldn't be in any sort of "intimate setting" with a female....religious accomodation and all. Google the name for more info, I'm sure its out there.......

That case was pretty pathetic too. Can't function coed, don't join the military.

There are a TON of accomodations I'd love to have in a perfect world.....no work on any weekends, only fly with person A or B or C etc, get fed with a silver spoon for my meals at the chow hall, etc. But the military is far from any perfect world...thats just the way it is. If you can roll with it, fine; if not, then don't join. To me, it's the same as muslims (or any religion, but they've been the ones with the controversy lately) who want to wear certain headdress with their uniform. The uniform is the uniform, period. Its worn standardized....ie, all the same for everybody regardless. When we start making special accomodations for one or a few, then we're opening a Pandora's box that is a dangerous one to open. You join the military having been made aware of standarization; if you can meet that, cool. If not, don't join. Plain and simple. IMHO, the military isn't the place for overt religious expression, that's for one's personal time.

Edited June 18, 2008 by MD

[Guest ROTC Jew]

Question, why can't you even talk directly to women? Obviously just talking to a woman doesn't mean you're automatically hitting on her, seeking to date her, etc. So why would it be an issue to fly w/ a female A/C (example stated above)? Does being an Orthodox Jew basically bar you from talking to women except those in your family?

Sorry about the delay in response- I had a password issue.

You're allowed to speak to women, but only as necessary. The problem with flying with a women A/C is that it's a private location, and that's forbidden because of the inherent possibilities. (Laugh if you'd like, but you know full well what I'm talking about.) It's already been stated, and I fully agree, that being a pilot would be impossible, and that's why I don't want a pilot slot.

We're also not allowed to come into physical contact with an unrelated female. This includes even non-affectionate gestures, although some will allow you to shake hands if there's simply no other way to do it, although I've found (as you said) that most women will be respectful once they understand that you don't look down at them.

I'm talking about a non-flying, "regular desk job" (if there is such a thing), either in communications, intel, whatever, which will make it easier to deal with these issues (not as many weekends, those that there are can be dealt with, etc.)

So, getting back to my "bottom line" list,

1. Most requests can be accommodated most of the time.

2. But not all requests all the time, so be prepared.

3. People are wary of those who act/behave 'different,' so don't show anything off.

4. Depending on your CC/CO, it may be easy or difficult, especially in a deployment situation.

5. If you don't feel you can live with it, don't.

6. DON'T FLY!!!

I guess an important thing to know (and if this is another topic here, please direct me,) is what is the typical day in the Air Force?

[Stiffler]

Sorry about the delay in response- I had a password issue.

You're allowed to speak to women, but only as necessary. The problem with flying with a women A/C is that it's a private location, and that's forbidden because of the inherent possibilities. (Laugh if you'd like, but you know full well what I'm talking about.)

HAHAHAHAHHAHA

I've never gotten physical in the COCKpit....but...that sounds like a good idea.

I respect your religion, but you are gonna have difficulty man. Especially with the women thing. What if you female commander calls you in her office to chew you out (sts) and shuts the door?? Then what? I can think of a jillion examples like that.

I do admire your desire to serve

[FlyinGrunt]

what is the typical day in the Air Force?

no such thing.