Pc-12 Crash At Hurlburt

[Gravedigger]

PC-12 Crash

I expect this thread to go something like the rest of them...

Some people know details. Nobody can talk about it. Something will be out on SIPR soon. Everyone is glad they are ok. We are reminded to wait until the AIB releases more details.

So, does anybody know what happened here? What kind of mission were they flying when they crashed?

I keed.

But seriously, I'm glad they all survived.

[Guest regularjoe]

Routine training assignment DUH!!! (smiles)

[Hacker]

Probably a disgruntled TAMI-21'd fighter guy trying to take out the PC-12 fleet one at a time.

As the man says, "that's one less spot for me."

[Butters]

PC-12 Crash

Something will be out on SIPR soon.

I love how everyone says 'something will be on the SIPR" like there is a Baseops.net Forum on the SIPR where we post all the classifed stuff we can't talk about here.

[RangerMateo]

I love how everyone says 'something will be on the SIPR" like there is a Baseops.net Forum on the SIPR where we post all the classifed stuff we can't talk about here.

There's not?

[Toro]

I love how everyone says 'something will be on the SIPR" like there is a Baseops.net Forum on the SIPR where we post all the classifed stuff we can't talk about here.

The first rule about Baseops SIPR.....

[Guest Safe&Clear]

Well, from the press release, it looks like a simple and predictable accident. Nobody's hurt, the plane's leased, so no harm done.

That being said, I will say this: from my experience in the Air Force, if you enlist and are too dumb to be a cop or a cook, they make you an Air Traffic Controller! More than two aircraft in the pattern at an AF base seems to be an overload every time.

In all my years at Hurlburt, I never once heard the words "Caution, Wake Turbulence" after "Cleared the Option".

Now, if the case is two C-130s following one another, there's no need for this caution. But, there are now more dissimilar aircraft at HRT than there have been since the 70's or early 80's. Small landing behind large, fixed wing landing behind powered-lift (CV-22's) etc.

Pilots should be aware and conduct their touch & go accordingly. But when we're busy with a student and have just rolled into the groove, it helps if tower reminds us of the fact.

I'm done-- just offering an opinion. I've flown into Hurlburt many times recently, and although LOTS of things have changed, airfield ops in general have not. A Herc's wake turbies will fvck up a small aircraft-- Heads up!

S&C

[Guest HercengTN]

Well, from the press release, it looks like a simple and predictable accident. Nobody's hurt, the plane's leased, so no harm done.

That being said, I will say this: from my experience in the Air Force, if you enlist and are too dumb to be a cop or a cook, they make you an Air Traffic Controller! More than two aircraft in the pattern at an AF base seems to be an overload every time.

In all my years at Hurlburt, I never once heard the words "Caution, Wake Turbulence" after "Cleared the Option".

Now, if the case is two C-130s following one another, there's no need for this caution. But, there are now more dissimilar aircraft at HRT than there have been since the 70's or early 80's. Small landing behind large, fixed wing landing behind powered-lift (CV-22's) etc.

Pilots should be aware and conduct their touch & go accordingly. But when we're busy with a student and have just rolled into the groove, it helps if tower reminds us of the fact.

I'm done-- just offering an opinion. I've flown into Hurlburt many times recently, and although LOTS of things have changed, airfield ops in general have not. A Herc's wake turbies will fvck up a small aircraft-- Heads up!

S&C

So if the controller would have stated "caution wake turbulence" the accident would have been prevented?

I seriously doubt it!

[Butters]

So if the controller would have stated "caution wake turbulence" the accident would have been prevented?

Duh! We learned this at Safety school. That statement puts an invisible force field around the AC that prevents damage... go see for your self, it is on the SIPR. Right next to the Roswell aliens slide show.

[Guest regularjoe]

Duh! We learned this at Safety school. That statement puts an invisible force field around the AC that prevents damage... go see for your self, it is on the SIPR. Right next to the Roswell aliens slide show.

I always put my "shields" up during takeoff and landing doesn't everyone?

[Guest Brewdog]

ATC dumber than skycops...OUCH. Good thing all fliers are rocket surgeons or there might be some real problems up there!

[Guest Safe&Clear]

A force-field would indeed be nice.

But, seriously, I've heard "Caution, Wake Turbulence" so many times at major airports and thought to myself, "Yeah, No sh!t sherlock...I'm not an idiot."

Then one day, sure as hell, I wasn't paying attention, tower didn't mention it, and I got myself a pretty good scare behind a P-3 who'd just gone missed. Now I'm thinking "Yep, apparently I am an idiot..."

Definitely not tower's fault, but the call may have snapped me out of whatever else was distracting me. All I had to do was offset a little to avoid it.

Hope I didn't offend anyone with the ATC comment-- just a little ball-busting! Isn't cynicism and b!tching what this forum's all about??

:)

[Guest regularjoe]

A force-field would indeed be nice.

But, seriously, I've heard "Caution, Wake Turbulence" so many times at major airports and thought to myself, "Yeah, No sh!t sherlock...I'm not an idiot."

Then one day, sure as hell, I wasn't paying attention, tower didn't mention it, and I got myself a pretty good scare behind a P-3 who'd just gone missed. Now I'm thinking "Yep, apparently I am an idiot..."

Definitely not tower's fault, but the call may have snapped me out of whatever else was distracting me. All I had to do was offset a little to avoid it.

Hope I didn't offend anyone with the ATC comment-- just a little ball-busting! Isn't cynicism and b!tching what this forum's all about??

:)

Personally I thought your ATC comments were funny.

On a serious note if I relied on ATC to warn me about everything, then I would probably have a much shorter flying career then I want to. At least three seperate times in the last year they advised me to do things that if I hadn't been paying attention to would have caused some serious aluminum bending not to mention possible death, such as vectoring another plane nearly on top of me, cutting a 757 in front of me on somewhat short final, and asking me to move to position and hold on the active with another aircraft on 2 mile final.

ATC is a good advisor but you have to remember usually they don't have the open windows to look around that you do and if you aren't watching out for yourself then all the blame can't go to them.

[BFM this]

[...]if you enlist and are too dumb to be a cop or a cook, they make you an Air Traffic Controller![...]S&C

QOTW. Right there.

[busdriver]

Despite the super secret squirrel nature of the PC-12, they do in fact have routine training flights, keep in mind they've got lots of new guys showing up these days.

[Guest Intact]

That being said, I will say this: from my experience in the Air Force, if you enlist and are too dumb to be a cop or a cook, they make you an Air Traffic Controller! More than two aircraft in the pattern at an AF base seems to be an overload every time.

I'm done-- just offering an opinion. I've flown into Hurlburt many times recently, and although LOTS of things have changed, airfield ops in general have not. A Herc's wake turbies will fvck up a small aircraft-- Heads up!

S&C

How many airplanes can you fly at once? I've flown about 25-30 around nasty t-storms, busy arrival pushes, and in-trail spacing into Chicago, Denver, east coast. When you fly through my airspace, just STFU, do what I need you to do, and I'll get you home safe. I know that I personally bust my @ss to take care of my mil guys all the time. "from my experience"? It's a shame you haven't had much. Just keep going where I tell you to and you'll be just fine sport.

I'm sure tactical flying (and being shot at) has it's associated stress. That being said, pushing thousands of people across the U.S. everyday knowing that if you screw up once, potentially hundreds of people can die has a bit of associated stress as well. I've never worked in a tower so, I can't speak to being overloaded in a pattern but, I have been overloaded on the frequency and had my scope FULL of aircraft...it sucks. Just keep in mind that really, all those controllers want to do is keep you safe and help you get from point a to point b (unless they just suck).

No offense brother, just had to bust your balls back a little

[itsokimapilot]

How many airplanes can you fly at once? I've flown about 25-30 around nasty t-storms, busy arrival pushes, and in-trail spacing into Chicago, Denver, east coast. When you fly through my airspace, just STFU, do what I need you to do, and I'll get you home safe. I know that I personally bust my @ss to take care of my mil guys all the time. "from my experience"? It's a shame you haven't had much. Just keep going where I tell you to and you'll be just fine sport.

I'm sure tactical flying (and being shot at) has it's associated stress. That being said, pushing thousands of people across the U.S. everyday knowing that if you screw up once, potentially hundreds of people can die has a bit of associated stress as well. I've never worked in a tower so, I can't speak to being overloaded in a pattern but, I have been overloaded on the frequency and had my scope FULL of aircraft...it sucks. Just keep in mind that really, all those controllers want to do is keep you safe and help you get from point a to point b (unless they just suck).

No offense brother, just had to bust your balls back a little

I think S&C was pointing out the exact same thing you are pointing out. Many of the guys working AF towers are VERY young and inexperienced. There is no way in hell these young airman could handle 25-30 acft on arrivals into Chicago or Denver. Fly into an AFB a few times and you'll undoubtedly get a "Disregard BASCO 11, hold your position, Acft on Final you are still cleared to land" as the tower instructor takes the "jet."

[Danny Noonin]

How many airplanes can you fly at once? I've flown about 25-30 around nasty t-storms, busy arrival pushes, and in-trail spacing into Chicago, Denver, east coast. When you fly through my airspace, just STFU, do what I need you to do, and I'll get you home safe. I know that I personally bust my @ss to take care of my mil guys all the time. "from my experience"? It's a shame you haven't had much. Just keep going where I tell you to and you'll be just fine sport.

I'm sure tactical flying (and being shot at) has it's associated stress. That being said, pushing thousands of people across the U.S. everyday knowing that if you screw up once, potentially hundreds of people can die has a bit of associated stress as well. I've never worked in a tower so, I can't speak to being overloaded in a pattern but, I have been overloaded on the frequency and had my scope FULL of aircraft...it sucks. Just keep in mind that really, all those controllers want to do is keep you safe and help you get from point a to point b (unless they just suck).

No offense brother, just had to bust your balls back a little

Dude, if you want to bust someone's balls, bust 'em based on what he actually said. The dude said:

"More than two aircraft in the pattern at an AF base seems to be an overload every time."

Your response had nothing to do with what he said. So to bust someone's balls because he said "from my experience" on a subject in which you admittedly have NO experience (tower control or AF pattern) is a bit absurd.

And don't even give me that crap about comparing tactical flying/getting shot at to your stress level at your air conditioned chair. I'm sure you're stressed and I don't at all belittle the stress level of FAA ATC, but it's a whole different level of stress when your own pink ass can be counted among the dead if shit goes south.

And you keep thinking you "fly" my airplane if that makes you feel better. I'll continue to know that you saying "cleared direct Lendy, Lendy 5 arrival" still means I'm the one actually flying.

No offense brother. Cheers.

[MD]

Despite the super secret squirrel nature of the PC-12, they do in fact have routine training flights, keep in mind they've got lots of new guys showing up these days.

ATC...at least local controllers (tower)..at most AFBs, the experience level is quite low. There are many 3 levels, and then 7 and 9 levels. The 5 level ranks are thin. As with pilots, etc, many ATC folks leave to either the FAA or private ATC companies, or to other GS ATC jobs. GS civilians now 100% man all ATC/AFMC, etc bases, and even ACC bases have a good mix of civilian and military controllers. Same reasons for getting out...pay/deployment rate, etc. So there's always a ton of training going on. Where else are they going to get it if its not OJT? That's just the way it is sometimes.

ATC seems to get blamed alot for many pattern-related incidents. The midair at Pope in '94 comes to mind. Even though ATC got smacked pretty good for that one (whcih I thought was kind of BS...contributing factor at best), and with the visual pickup problems of seeing a woodland camo C-130 against a woodland background, the F-16 in the SFO still had the responsibility of clearing its flightpath in VMC. ATC can only do so much, the personal and legal responsibility for flying the plane still rests with us.

[Guest Intact]

Dude, if you want to bust someone's balls, bust 'em based on what he actually said. The dude said:

"More than two aircraft in the pattern at an AF base seems to be an overload every time."

Your response had nothing to do with what he said. So to bust someone's balls because he said "from my experience" on a subject in which you admittedly have NO experience (tower control or AF pattern) is a bit absurd.

And don't even give me that crap about comparing tactical flying/getting shot at to your stress level at your air conditioned chair. I'm sure you're stressed and I don't at all belittle the stress level of FAA ATC, but it's a whole different level of stress when your own pink ass can be counted among the dead if shit goes south.

And you keep thinking you "fly" my airplane if that makes you feel better. I'll continue to know that you saying "cleared direct Lendy, Lendy 5 arrival" still means I'm the one actually flying.

No offense brother. Cheers.

The me flying the airplanes was humor. I know you guys are pushing the throttles forward (I do it myself when I'm not controlling). It just seems to me that pilots get tunnel visioned into their own aircraft (it happens to me when I fly) but, for controllers, I may be watching multiple situations at once, that each require decisive action (much like flying) in order to maintain a safe situation (probably not the case in an AF vfr pattern). Granted, it will always be the pilot that buys the farm when a mistake happens, whether it be my fault or theirs but, I take that very seriously. I know there is a huge difference between the ATC I do and that of an AF pattern but, I can only imagine the kid in the tower/rapcon experiences much of the same feelings (I work w/ those kids every day)...he just wants to keep you guys safe to the best of his/her ability and not run two together. So yeah, you're right you're flying I'm not but, I'm controlling your profile, you want to start down, great, you do so on my mark, that's the way it is, and granted, it's not great and a lot of changes for the better need to happen but, try descending prior to being cleared to do so, you can either declare an emergency or you have to have an answer as to why you deviated from a clearance.

As far as busting the dudes balls based on what he actually said. He compared AF ATC to those not qualified to cook or be a cop. He probably has no experience doing any of those jobs (assumption on my part), he was just busting balls (based on his own assumptions), and so was I. Some of the best folks I ever worked w/ were cooks and cops. I sensed a little bit of "cocky" in the post and figured I would give SC a little crap for it. We're all guilty...and more importantly we're all on the same team in the end so, it's all good.

I know you guys are out fighting this war, and I and my family really appreciate that. My wife and I are both guardsman and make ourselves available to our country, we have both been in the military for over a decade. So please, don't confuse me or my sarcastic banter w/ someone who doesn't have a clue.

Fly safe, and if your mil in my airspace you WILL get direct were ever you want whenever you guys ask.

-Intact and on track

[Guest chaffman]

I can tell you from working as a Supervisor of Flying(SOF) at LRAFB that standing in the tower next to the controllers is an eye opening experience. They lack SA from a pilot perspective and we pilots lack the SA of pattern mechanics sometimes. I have been in the pattern at the Rock with 12 other acft and had tower lose all SA and state on freq "all acft state callsign and position." I have also had to break myself out numerous times or tell tower "unable" when safety came into the equation. I have alos seen pilot request things from tower without realizing how huge a conflict they are trying to become. That being said, I can state with the benefit of having worked in the tower, albeit not controlling acft(just handing out TOTs and eating my hot pocket) that there is a great deal of experience in the tower, but the trainers are always willing to let their trainee paint themselves into a corner to see if they can get out, right or worng, they have to train the new guys too. The controllers with some experience, SRA/SSGTs and the civilian watch sups have been there and done that and know how to run a pattern, when stuff goes wrong, ot is usually the young kid at the mike, not unlike when I had a student pilot try to drop me out of the sky at 50 feet by chopping the power to idle.

Moral of the story, if you're a pilot, go hang out in a tower, it is possible, and if you are a controller, go fly on an obs ride, it is authorized.

Edited July 11, 2008 by chaffman

[Guest Boom]

That being said, I will say this: from my experience in the Air Force, if you enlist and are too dumb to be a cop or a cook, they make you an Air Traffic Controller!

Don't worry scrote. There are plenty of 'tards out there living really kick ass lives. My first wife was 'tarded. She's a pilot now.

[Whitman]

Enough with the ball busting already! I still have nightmares from that video Herka Derka posted a couple months back.

[Guest Safe&Clear]

Well, I've done it again. Thrown this thread completely off topic with my 12-pack-accompanied musings!

Many of you don't have much experience in light airplanes. But many of you are about to-- the PC-12 may be just the beginning.

I made the transition from 100K-plus down to about a tenth of that several years ago, and although we were all taught about wake turbulence by our Cessna instructors years and years ago, it took a good scare to remind me. Fortunately, it happened at 200-feet instead of 20.

So, that's what we should be talkin about, as it apparently caused this crash. Stay above that Herc's (or heavier's) flightpath, guys!

[M2]

Update...

Cheers! M2

Pilot Error Caused PC-12 Crash: Failure on the part of an Air Force Special Operations Command instructor pilot to ensure "adequate time separation" between the PC-12 light transport aircraft that he was flying and a preceding AC-130 gunship led to the PC-12 flying into wake turbulence upon landing approach at Hurlburt Field, Fla., and crashing during a training sortie July 8, Air Force accident investigators have determined. According to the newly issued findings of the accident investigation board, the wake turbulence led to the pilot losing control of the aircraft. The crash caused "substantial damage" to the PC-12 and minor injuries to the three pilots aboard, including the instructor and two students. There was no evidence of any mechanical failure, the AIB said. AFSOC uses the PC-12 to shuttle special ops forces around within a theater.