Dumbness At Columbus?

[Guest Boom]

I hereby speculate that you, Sir, are full of shit. I've been in the T-6 business for nearly five years...1 year of it training IPs at the PIT schoolhouse. I cannot believe this happened the way you've described. Please tell me this is a "10% story." There is not a T-6 IP walking the Earth that doesn't know what the "red line and the beeping is". Please clarify, or your new Delta Tau Chi name will be Bull Shit vs. Buddy Spike.

CALL OUT

[Butters]

141s?

Nope. 17s. but it was a former 141 reserve crew that knocked down the tree.

[Guest motofalcon]

Here's what I've been told since I work down the hall - yes he oversped the plane by about 7 knots (beeper and all) by checking in inverted and then pulling through without enough pull. And yes, it is totally fine to check in inverted. The problem came when he did not declare an IFE/at least call back to the SOF and ask about it, he did not say anything to the sup when he got back in the building, he did not say anything to the IP who debriefed him (and we always ask after a solo, "anything wierd happen?") but then an IP overheard him talking to his buddies telling this story - they ran the FDR, it showed the overspeed - and he's out. I think there may have been some more lying/switching stories involved, but based on that the SQ/CC has already got him on hold and is working the paperwork to get him out. The issue was not that he checked in inverted (totally allowed) or that he oversped (shit happens) but that he tried to cover it up and said the plane was ok for the next crew - it's a flight discipline issue.

And I second the bullshit call on the IP overspeed situation - during a HAPL? as in prop windmilling, gliding at 125 knots? It takes max power and about 30-40 degrees nose low just to get ~280KIAS. You would have to be going straight down to do it at low power, which would probably make you wonder why you aren't gliding forward at all....

[Butters]

it's a flight discipline issue.

If that is the case, then he is indeed screwed. The AF has no sense of humor about that crap and kicking you out before you get your wings is way easier.

[ViperStud]

Here's what I've been told since I work down the hall - yes he oversped the plane by about 7 knots (beeper and all) by checking in inverted and then pulling through without enough pull. And yes, it is totally fine to check in inverted. The problem came when he did not declare an IFE/at least call back to the SOF and ask about it, he did not say anything to the sup when he got back in the building, he did not say anything to the IP who debriefed him (and we always ask after a solo, "anything wierd happen?") but then an IP overheard him talking to his buddies telling this story - they ran the FDR, it showed the overspeed - and he's out. I think there may have been some more lying/switching stories involved, but based on that the SQ/CC has already got him on hold and is working the paperwork to get him out. The issue was not that he checked in inverted (totally allowed) or that he oversped (shit happens) but that he tried to cover it up and said the plane was ok for the next crew - it's a flight discipline issue.

And I second the bullshit call on the IP overspeed situation - during a HAPL? as in prop windmilling, gliding at 125 knots? It takes max power and about 30-40 degrees nose low just to get ~280KIAS. You would have to be going straight down to do it at low power, which would probably make you wonder why you aren't gliding forward at all....

Hmmm slightly different story. My old SQ/CC said something to me after I failed to catch a popped engine bit ball after a weather divert. I caught it the next day (knew it was due to flying through rain and not a big deal) and rode out the painful stay in the middle of nowhere to get it checked. A lot of guys would have taken it. He said everyone makes mistakes, but when you do something wrong on purpose you deserve what you get. Truer words have never been said. Even as a UPT stud if he just fessed up he might have gotten a pee-pee schwacking. IF (a big if) the above is true then throw the book at him, if he's got flight discipline issues that early in the game he's a lost cause.

[Buddy Spike]

I hereby speculate that you, Sir, are full of shit. I've been in the T-6 business for nearly five years...1 year of it training IPs at the PIT schoolhouse. I cannot believe this happened the way you've described. Please tell me this is a "10% story." There is not a T-6 IP walking the Earth that doesn't know what the "red line and the beeping is". Please clarify, or your new Delta Tau Chi name will be Bull Shit vs. Buddy Spike.

I have no doubt he knew what it meant, but I don't think he correlated the two, because he did in fact ask what the beeping was. And frankly, I don't give a fuck if you believe me or not. How would you have me prove it?

And I second the bullshit call on the IP overspeed situation - during a HAPL? as in prop windmilling, gliding at 125 knots? It takes max power and about 30-40 degrees nose low just to get ~280KIAS. You would have to be going straight down to do it at low power, which would probably make you wonder why you aren't gliding forward at all....

He was trying to set up the HAPL by getting us out of the airspace quickly in MIL power in a steep descent.

[Guest 10MAN]

And frankly, I don't give a ###### if you believe me or not. How would you have me prove it?

Not worth the effort, for me or you. Nevermind. Neil Armstrong was actually a Soviet citizen. Or maybe he wasn't. How would you have me prove it? Pretty sure YOU would call BS on that one, right?

It's all good.

Please, please PM the name of this guy...only because I want to personnally call him and give him endless shit. I probably know him.

[Buddy Spike]

Not worth the effort, for me or you. Nevermind. Neil Armstrong was actually a Soviet citizen. Or maybe he wasn't. How would you have me prove it? Pretty sure YOU would call BS on that one, right?

It's all good.

Please, please PM the name of this guy...only because I want to personnally call him and give him endless shit. I probably know him.

We landed on the moon???

[B*D*A]

Here's what I've been told since I work down the hall - yes he oversped the plane by about 7 knots (beeper and all) by checking in inverted and then pulling through without enough pull. And yes, it is totally fine to check in inverted. The problem came when he did not declare an IFE/at least call back to the SOF and ask about it, he did not say anything to the sup when he got back in the building, he did not say anything to the IP who debriefed him (and we always ask after a solo, "anything wierd happen?") but then an IP overheard him talking to his buddies telling this story - they ran the FDR, it showed the overspeed - and he's out. I think there may have been some more lying/switching stories involved, but based on that the SQ/CC has already got him on hold and is working the paperwork to get him out. The issue was not that he checked in inverted (totally allowed) or that he oversped (shit happens) but that he tried to cover it up and said the plane was ok for the next crew - it's a flight discipline issue.

And I second the bullshit call on the IP overspeed situation - during a HAPL? as in prop windmilling, gliding at 125 knots? It takes max power and about 30-40 degrees nose low just to get ~280KIAS. You would have to be going straight down to do it at low power, which would probably make you wonder why you aren't gliding forward at all....

That's a much different scenario and a good lesson for us young pups.

[Guest 10MAN]

We landed on the moon???

Nah, but the Russians did though. Several times. We ALMOST made it. Several times.

But I digress, what's the topic again??

[PropWash]

Here's what I've been told since I work down the hall - yes he oversped the plane by about 7 knots (beeper and all) by checking in inverted and then pulling through without enough pull. And yes, it is totally fine to check in inverted. The problem came when he did not declare an IFE/at least call back to the SOF and ask about it, he did not say anything to the sup when he got back in the building, he did not say anything to the IP who debriefed him (and we always ask after a solo, "anything wierd happen?") but then an IP overheard him talking to his buddies telling this story - they ran the FDR, it showed the overspeed - and he's out. I think there may have been some more lying/switching stories involved, but based on that the SQ/CC has already got him on hold and is working the paperwork to get him out. The issue was not that he checked in inverted (totally allowed) or that he oversped (shit happens) but that he tried to cover it up and said the plane was ok for the next crew - it's a flight discipline issue.

And I second the bullshit call on the IP overspeed situation - during a HAPL? as in prop windmilling, gliding at 125 knots? It takes max power and about 30-40 degrees nose low just to get ~280KIAS. You would have to be going straight down to do it at low power, which would probably make you wonder why you aren't gliding forward at all....

I would love to know where you got this information.

I know the individual very well and by all accounts he has been nothing but honest and forthright from the word go.

The problem came when he did not declare an IFE/at least call back to the SOF and ask about it, he did not say anything to the sup when he got back in the building, he did not say anything to the IP who debriefed him

he tried to cover it up and said the plane was ok for the next crew

Every word quoted above is flat out wrong, period dot.

I think there may have been some more lying/switching stories involved

Really? What makes you think that? Your information is at best completely wrong and more accurately slanderous.

The guy made a stupid mistake, fessed up, and has made zero excuses.

Whether or not the mistake was big enough to get him the boot is for bigger fish than I to decide. The least we can do is keep the erroneous speculation to a minimum.

Edited July 22, 2008 by Gary

[MilitaryToFinance]

We landed on the moon???

https://members.shaw.ca/rlongpre01/moon.html

[Butters]

The guy made a stupid mistake, fessed up, and has made zero excuses.

Whether or not the mistake was big enough to get him the boot is for bigger fish than I to decide. The least we can do is keep the erroneous speculation to a minimum.

Something is not adding up. If what you say is true, you have some enormous D-Bags running the show there. Kicked out for over speeding an aircraft... does not make sense. Kicked out for breach of flight discipline… makes sense. Hell, we had a guy doing an impromptu air show on his first pattern solo... kept rocking his wings every time he passed the small viewing area outside the fence at Vance. His family was there watching and he wanted to let them know which one was him. Hooked that ride, but that was it.

[PropWash]

Something is not adding up. If what you say is true, you have some enormous D-Bags running the show there. Kicked out for over speeding an aircraft... does not make sense. Kicked out for breach of flight discipline… makes sense. Hell, we had a guy doing an impromptu air show on his first pattern solo... kept rocking his wings every time he passed the small viewing area outside the fence at Vance. His family was there watching and he wanted to let them know which one was him. Hooked that ride, but that was it.

As I understand it, someone in 09-03 did the same thing, oversped the plane trying to report in inverted. Apparently he got his pee-pee schwacked and was supposed to be the example of "dont do this!" but the message didnt filter down much past his class (ie: we never heard of it until this second event)

I think the biggest source of pain on this is that this same thing happened before and fairly recently.

[Right Seat Driver]

As I understand it, someone in 09-03 did the same thing, oversped the plane trying to report in inverted. Apparently he got his pee-pee schwacked and was supposed to be the example of "dont do this!" but the message didnt filter down much past his class (ie: we never heard of it until this second event)

I think the biggest source of pain on this is that this same thing happened before and fairly recently.

The stud in 09-03 did spilit-s into the MOA while checking in and oversped the plane, and he immediately leveled out and declared an IFE. He was grounded for a few days and was put on Military CAP for a week or so. He had to go to every flight room in service dress and brief every single flight on what he did, why it was stupid, and why it should never be repeated.

[Butters]

As I understand it, someone in 09-03 did the same thing, oversped the plane trying to report in inverted. Apparently he got his pee-pee schwacked and was supposed to be the example of "dont do this!" but the message didnt filter down much past his class (ie: we never heard of it until this second event)

I think the biggest source of pain on this is that this same thing happened before and fairly recently.

I have seen this way too many times. Some poor dude gets left holding the bag because the leadership suddenly decides to crucify someone for doing something that has all the sudden become a trend! This is why when someone screws up; everyone needs to hear about it. Instead, people choose to keep it quite to prevent embarrassment, for the individual, the organization, ect. It is BS. If it was not advertised that this was not going to be tolerated he has a good case to get back into training if they kick him out. Tell him not to give up the fight.

Learn for other peoples mistakes. You will not live long enough to make all of them yourself!

The stud in 09-03 did spilit-s into the MOA while checking in and oversped the plane, and he immediately leveled out and declared an IFE. He was grounded for a few days and was put on Military CAP for a week or so. He had to go to every flight room in service dress and brief every single flight on what he did, why it was stupid, and why it should never be repeated.

Ok, so if he went to every flight, why did 09-09 not know about it?

[PropWash]

Ok, so if he went to every flight, why did 09-09 not know about it?

I've heard this story since our little incident (the guy had to go to all the flights give a brief etc) but It had all blown over by the time 0909 got to the flightline

[Butters]

I've heard this story since our little incident (the guy had to go to all the flights give a brief etc) but It had all blown over by the time 0909 got to the flightline

Well, then your boss sucks donkey balls (and you can tell him I said that) if they are trying to kick him out. I think they are going to stop short and hope that gets their point accross.

Good luck to him.

[SPiF]

I have seen this way too many times. Some poor dude gets left holding the bag because the leadership suddenly decides to crucify someone for doing something that has all the sudden become a trend! This is why when someone screws up; everyone needs to hear about it. Instead, people choose to keep it quite to prevent embarrassment, for the individual, the organization, ect. It is BS. If it was not advertised that this was not going to be tolerated he has a good case to get back into training if they kick him out. Tell him not to give up the fight.

Ok, so if he went to every flight, why did 09-09 not know about it?

Um, didn't 09-09 replace 09-03 on the flightline? Kinda hard to brief a class that probably wasn't even at UPT at the time....

[Guest JimmyH]

Of all the retarded things in this thread.. one has annoyed me more than any other....

Second time its happened in 2 months from the same squadron. Last time it happened everyone was told the next kid to overspeed his jet reporting in inverted would get the boot...

My IP oversped the T-6 on one of my contact rides doing a HAPL of all things. We got the red line and the beeping, he didn't really know what it meant so he asked and I said "Sir, I think we just oversped the jet..." We continued the sortie and after landing he told MX about it. They barely looked it over and cleared it for flight. Didn't seem like a big deal.

I don't care how turbo your turboprop is, it still has a prop. The T-6 is NOT a "jet"!!

DEFINITELY dumbness at Columbus!!

[Butters]

Um, didn't 09-09 replace 09-03 on the flightline? Kinda hard to brief a class that probably wasn't even at UPT at the time....

That was my point, you can't kick a guy out if he did not know that this was not to be tolerated. And Gary cleared this up in the post right after mine! Read 4 posts up!

[Guest 10MAN]

Of all the retarded things in this thread.. one has annoyed me more than any other....

I don't care how turbo your turboprop is, it still has a prop. The T-6 is NOT a "jet"!!

DEFINITELY dumbness at Columbus!!

When I sign my fuel receipt at an FBO, it says JET A+, therefore it is a jet. Get over it. Besides, the exhaust stacks provide a small amount of thrust to augment the prop "thrust." OK that last one is a stretch, but it's in the Dash 1. C'mon, help me out here, guys...guys?

My plane is cooler than your plane. Look how far I can pee.

[Butters]

When I sign my fuel receipt at an FBO, it says JET A+, therefore it is a jet. Get over it. Besides, the exhaust stacks provide a small amount of thrust to augment the prop "thrust." OK that last one is a stretch, but it's in the Dash 1. C'mon, help me out here, guys...guys?

My plane is cooler than your plane. Look how far I can pee.

Fine! Then I am calling the C-17 a fixed pich cowled turbo prop!

[Guest AndThenSome]

Damn. When I read the thread title "Dumbness at Columbus" I thought it would actually be about all the stupid crap that happens there. Like how unbelieveably horrible the Wingate Travel Office woman is to deal with when you need airline tickets for TDY (in addition to never answering her phone).

Or how even though Randolph has information on training dates (and gives them to you over the phone if you call and ask politely) the MPF at Columbus never has an answer other than "Oh, we don't know anything yet." And this is in addition to the MPF not drawing up orders for previously said TDY until you go in person and say, "Um...I'm supposed to go on TDY in two days and still need the orders you said would be e-mailed to me last week." (Response: "Oh, sorry, Sir, you don't seem to be in the system at all. Good thing you mentioned it because they never would have been sent to you.")

OR how when you call for a TLF, the lady at the desk, who is obviously annoyed that you dared to interrupt her soap operas, quickly tells you they have none available...until you keep her on the phone long enough to make her check and, EUREKA!!, they have two available for immediate check in. I know this kind of stuff isn't unique to CBM, but it seems to be running rampant there.

It's fvcking simple. Do the job you're paid to do. No one asks that you make headlines as the world's greatest employee...just do your JOB.

[itsokimapilot]

Damn. When I read the thread title "Dumbness at Columbus" I thought it would actually be about all the stupid crap that happens there. Like how unbelieveably horrible the Wingate Travel Office woman is to deal with when you need airline tickets for TDY (in addition to never answering her phone).

Or how even though Randolph has information on training dates (and gives them to you over the phone if you call and ask politely) the MPF at Columbus never has an answer other than "Oh, we don't know anything yet." And this is in addition to the MPF not drawing up orders for previously said TDY until you go in person and say, "Um...I'm supposed to go on TDY in two days and still need the orders you said would be e-mailed to me last week." (Response: "Oh, sorry, Sir, you don't seem to be in the system at all. Good thing you mentioned it because they never would have been sent to you.")

OR how when you call for a TLF, the lady at the desk, who is obviously annoyed that you dared to interrupt her soap operas, quickly tells you they have none available...until you keep her on the phone long enough to make her check and, EUREKA!!, they have two available for immediate check in. I know this kind of stuff isn't unique to CBM, but it seems to be running rampant there.

It's fvcking simple. Do the job you're paid to do. No one asks that you make headlines as the world's greatest employee...just do your JOB.

Are they still giving people crap if they don't mow their yard the day prior to the lawn nazi insection? I have fond memories of getting done with a 12-13 hour day and coming home to see all of my neighbors mowing their grass after sunset. Decision time, mow my grass or have dinner and study for my next day test, check, etc. Base housing is awesome!

Here is a STS, insert above as necessary.